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lancaster
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a simple single shot
      #327948 - 01/05/19 04:08 PM

finally its in the house


the only gun I ever packed in two bags




looks like a simple old hammer gun








over the weekend I was in denmark where it begun to grab the thing




here it is with a Manton muzzle loader and a Schultz&Larsen M. 38
SN 380, 6,5x58RD, came from the estate of an old danish hunter who shoot his roe deer all the decades with this little carbine (50 cm barrel).
its a very nice rifle and was clearly inspired by the short MS 1903 stutzen.



anyway, back to the shotgun, you probably notice its bigger than normal






SN is 5299




a anchor +crown mark I am not seeing before, anyone knows?




made by "A.Francotte Brevete A Liege" Auguste Francotte patent from Liege

one of the better known firms making best guns up to the great war http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20francotte/a%20francotte%20gb.htm

never had a Francotte catalog in my hands but they exist
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Auguste-Francotte-dArmes-c1912-Catalog-/290893130400




https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=287









you see it before its a Lefaucheux or pinfire gun




the barrel is hold by a wedge in the action, broken on one side once




I think the damascus barrel was brown once






MG 1874 , maybe made in 1874








AF under crown on the barrel







belgian proof marks





and YES, its a 4 ga.

here with the steel cases
to be prepared I bought a 4 ga, 4" long Gevelot made cartridge with the help of louis in france.
the gun itself cost me the price of 20 cartridges so you can decide what is the better deal.









here with a brass case 14,5x114 dummy round you see without necking up the steel case( I dont recommend this)you got 88 mm maximum out of this.
dont worry about it, thinking by myself to shoot a shorter cartridge or lengthen the case with a paper liner.
BUT, I never see it before this gun having only a 3,5" long chamber and my steel case cut to 87,5 mm fit perfect in length.




turn the steel case down on the base from 26,8 mm to 26,3 mm what I measure on the gevelot pinfire cartridge. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=324441&an=0&page=0#Post324441

the chamber is actually very large, conical and it seems over 27 mm at the end.





notice the pin dont comes out vertically




a 9 mm Parabellum case in the muzzle

barrel seems to be around 23 mm diameter so inch pincher will deny its a 4 ga.





the secret of the screw, it hold a small rifle primer
the pin can by glued in anytime you want or just stick into the hole before you fire the gun








together with another belgian single shot gun, a 9 mm Flobert rimfire

gun will get a careful restoration - will see action on geese in autumn. hold the gun over the head into the sky its surprisingly good to handle and you can follow flying targets without problems.
recoil? we will see.

gun comes from sweden to denmark in 2006, Jørgen told me he never find a hint that shotguns bigger than 10 ga were used for geese hunting in denmark. I see this in the hand of a swedish hunter on the coast were you dont have much cover so geese will see you and flying very high.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #327960 - 02/05/19 02:56 AM

Good work, Lancaster - soon as I saw it I thought - "HA!-those steel pin fire cases he's been building. I wasn't sure how you were going to insert the primers or use percussion caps - good idea,
Well done!
Yes- quite likely it was browned - a light 'wash of brown'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 1656
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: a simple single shot [Re: Daryl_S]
      #327963 - 02/05/19 06:25 AM

Bloody amazing!
Never guessed the pinfire connection Lancaster - yes you cases will certain last a very long time!
Great to see this old bird back on its feet again, you did wonders doing so, & yes there was no other way of doing so without losing it's originality.
Maybe it might be a further lesson for us not so talented to be shown just what you go thru to do a restoration on something like this!
As to how Lois found a pinfire cartridge in such good order....he's a magician!
I'd be careful mate, everyone will be begging you to find something that they've always been after!


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Wayne59
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: 93x64mm]
      #327967 - 02/05/19 11:03 AM

Very cool. Always fun to have a new toy to play with.

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Daryl_S
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: Wayne59]
      #327970 - 02/05/19 12:45 PM

Bigga'BOOM!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: Daryl_S]
      #327983 - 03/05/19 05:19 AM

allways wanted a 4 ga. pinfire because center fire is boring!



the 3,5 " chamber was the biggest surprise because 4 " is common. only see 4 ga pinfire with Eley and
and SFM = Gevelot Gaupilat headstamp. I suspect the owner of this gun cut down 4" shells with a knife.


in the 1900 SFM catalog you find 4 ga. shells , 1000 for 200 franc
,this was 164 Mark - 38 dollar - 8 pound sterling





wads






an interesting explosive bullet, also in 4 ga. , for dangerous game elephant, lion, tiger



maybe a native french speaker (louis) can made a good translation

the 4 ga pinfire shell is not in the 1921 post war SFM catalog anymore, only the center fire version


SFM shotshell dimensions for pinfire - Doilles a Broche: the 4 gauge pinfire is 16,50 mm on the base and 26,2 mm on the papertube, rim is 28 mm
the 3,2mm thick pin protude 17,75 mm
shell inside measure 23,4 mm what fits to my barrel




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #327985 - 03/05/19 06:17 AM

That explosive bullet certainly would have killed both ends!
I'd have to be in the right frame of mind before firing that beast.....


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lancaster
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: 93x64mm]
      #328014 - 04/05/19 05:21 AM

of course, I have an interest to date the gun

working back now step by step, my own SN is 5299

here is SN 20576 "Based on its serial number, 20576 had been made around 1892, when Belgium’s colonial empire and the Liège gun trade were near their peak and Auguste Francotte was one of Liège’s most important makers of sporting guns. Von Lengerke & Detmold, a Manhattan-based establishment that catered to New York’s wealthy sporting set, imported the gun roundabout then. At the time VL&D sold a wide variety of guns, American and English, and especially Continental brands such as J.P. Sauer, Mauser, Greifelt, Mannlicher-Schoenauer and, most successfully, boxlock shotguns made by Francotte in a range of models."

https://shootingsportsman.com/pleissners-francotte/

15000 guns later in 1892, wonder if the small 1874 stamp is showing the year it was made

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 5626
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #328015 - 04/05/19 05:33 AM

SN 12697 "your shotgun was manufactured in the period 1880 when Francotte became active in manufacturing trade name guns and 1892 (evidenced by what is not on the barrel flats; i.e. barrel weight, choke designation, chamber length)."
https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/old-belgian-made-shotgun-for-id-28430018.html

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #330206 - 17/07/19 04:57 AM

case are ready now - 29 at all
will not shoot more cartridges in one day so hope its enough




to make it easy the pins were made from nails but hardened in the end to prevent bending





because the primer screw only fit the original case I numbered all









was thinking before 3 3/4" long cases are unusual because you only see the 4" long pinfire shells listed in old catalogs but a collector friend resolve me that 3 3/4" was the common length in the 19. century in europe


found an old loading data from a 1898 printed german book: 15,9 gramm BP and 85 gramm shot
eley catalog 1904 gives 15,9 gramm BP and 92 gramm shot for the 4" long shell.
my 3 3/4" steel case will not hold such a load.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3931
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #330215 - 17/07/19 11:33 AM

Good!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: tinker]
      #330217 - 17/07/19 12:08 PM

"barrel seems to be around 23 mm diameter so inch pincher will deny its a 4 ga."

Having a 4 bore chamber makes cases easier. A 6 bore barrel, 23mm being .019" under 6 bore of .919".
Not knocking you saying it is a 4bore, lancaster, as that is the case it is chambered for.
If shooting balls (deer, bear, hogs, trucks), something around .905 would be about perfect and weigh around 1,000gr., maybe a bit more or less, depending on alloy.
What a nice gun to have and play with.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #331374 - 19/08/19 03:48 AM

Big Bertha was in the hands of my gunmaker because there were some screws I could not move to disassemble it. the master is with right very proud for moving every screw but this time the two screws holding the lock only make it with losses







one screw got a new head by tig welding, the other one was a total loss and get a new replacement






try 3 cases for priming and it work 100%




if you look on the primer you see he never had a chance by the big hammer and the pin

the pins are fixed by common glue what held it in place but crack trusty when the hammer comes




for making wads I order a 24 mm hollow punch because nothing is available here. this cork wad for 24,5 mm signal pistol cartridges would be an option but you cant buy them.


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 568
Loc: West UK
Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #331387 - 19/08/19 09:34 AM

Lancaster - Your simple single shot is most endearing, a plain gun that I find most attractive

I am a lover of the large bores, having several (posted here), but not a pinfire, so this is new for me

The use of a Jones underlever surprises me for a continental gun (you may happily correct me) I thought they usually used a Lefaucheux lever?

Your endeavours of making pinfire cases is well beyond me

Good luck in your shooting and many thanks for posting such an interesting gun

TH44


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: TH44]
      #331396 - 19/08/19 02:04 PM

its right that you see more of this with the Lefaucheux underlever and this having also advantages of its own. the belgian firms like Francotte had a very big connection to the british market so they working allways with a look on the style preferred there.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1529
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: lancaster]
      #331418 - 19/08/19 11:23 PM

That’s a big gun!

--------------------
.


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lancaster
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Re: a simple single shot [Re: Ash]
      #331529 - 22/08/19 04:51 AM

so the 24 mm hollow punch came today and because the felt is all gone I use different cardboard to made wads for some experimental cartridges.the black powder is some cheaper stuff ( fg) from czechia I use to load shotgun cartriges.



the 2,5mm shot is home made stuff I bought once for half of Haendler& Natermann shot prices only to load such cartridges for testing.



like usual the wads are a little bit bigger in diameter than 24,0 mm having perfect fit in the case with +/- 24,3mm inside.




tetra pak paper ( seems only to be invented to make over powder wads), 3 thick card board wads and again a wad made from tetra pack paper







to see what happen I made a 12 ga, 10 ga and 8 ga load into the cases starting with 80 grains / 32 gramm shot 12 ga.
the 12 ga load will probably shot like a .22 in the thick bertha.
we will see...




original 4 ga 4" load was 246 grains BP and 92 gramm shot but because this is a 3 3/4" cartridge proofed gun I start now with 216,5 grains BP and 82 gramm shoot




added another thick cardboard wad to the load and fill the case with an overshot wad



the cases were sealed with hot paraffin





the 1000 gramm blackpowder bottle gives 71 loads and 5000 gramm shot bag gives 61 loads

90 cent for the shot
49 cent for the powder
3 cent for the primer
wads for free, only work

make 1,42 euro for one cartridge

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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survive [Re: lancaster]
      #331828 - 02/09/19 04:37 AM

fire 5 cartridges on friday, still living
cardboard maybe 70cm x80 cm

the "12 ga load" at 35 meter
was like shooting a rimfire!



the "10ga"
noticeable



the "8 ga"
first load when you know you come into a higher class



real 4 ga. load, powerful but good to shoot, no problem at all and not nearly like the painful 9,3x64 from a light made rifle



the 4 ga with 2,5 mm shot at 50 meter
bystander saying most of the pellets hiting the sand before the cardboard so I was maybe aiming a little bit low


would be a problem for a goose to find a way across but what I need now is 3,5 or 4mm shot




the 4 ga left, the 12 ga right


dont know why the light load holding the case clean, maybe the pressure inside is not high enough to blow gas back. screws are not completely tight





made a new cleaning rod with an old bottle brush






some gas blowing backwards but with the pin fire action there is no problem because it will never reach the lock. everything else is cleaning with a wet cloth after shooting.







before and




after cleaning, barrel inside have some marks but not very deep



wads looking good after passing the barrel



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: survive [Re: lancaster]
      #331831 - 02/09/19 06:16 AM

That 4 gauge load has a LOT of powder & shot.....you would have felt that going off & it was definitely the best pattern wise!
Bigger shot of say No2 shot(3.76mm) would certainly make it lethal for goose!


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tinker
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Re: survive [Re: 93x64mm]
      #331834 - 02/09/19 10:00 AM

Excellent!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: survive [Re: tinker]
      #331838 - 03/09/19 02:52 AM

Agreed - excellent indeed!

#2 or #3 shot would be a great goose load, if in lead.
old saying:

"less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead"

This worked well in my "Field London" 12 bore BP loads SxS, second in trap, shooting against a hammered, single shot choked gun (a bunch of those in the match).

Used 2 3/4 dram load with 1 1/4oz. shot. Smoked most of them. Had one more miss (easy shot too but missed) than the winner.

I am not suggesting you use this load, but the basic concept.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ash
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Re: survive [Re: Daryl_S]
      #331876 - 04/09/19 07:01 PM

Love pinfire guns.
Thanks for continuing to amuse us with your interesting taste, Lars.

--------------------
.


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