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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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Wayne59
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New Muzzle loader
      #331803 - 31/08/19 11:25 AM

For those interested in such things I have a new muzzle loader coming in next week. I have always been fascinated with the Whitworth so I ordered one of the new Pedersoli Whitworth's. Anyone had any experience with one of these. Bought a new Henry 1860 iron frame last week. This is killing my budget.

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tinker
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331806 - 31/08/19 01:17 PM

I haven't owned that model from pedersoli, but I'm looking forward to seeing how you do with the new rifle.

Keep us posted!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Iowa_303s
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: tinker]
      #331807 - 31/08/19 02:45 PM

I haven't used the Pedersoli Whitworth but have shot a friends Pedersoli Volunteer rifle.
Good fun going prone at 600 yards with a 500+ grain bullet!

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331847 - 03/09/19 06:58 PM

Quote:

I have always been fascinated with the Whitworth so I ordered one of the new Pedersoli Whitworth's.




I dabbled in muzzleloading in the 1980s (still have an 1861 Colt musket repro.) and was very interested in the Whitworth that Pedersoli was making then. They weren't cheap!





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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331860 - 04/09/19 01:59 AM

Wayne, I just got back from rendezvous at Hefley Creek, BC. While there I happened to be in a conversation with a lad who has a Pedersoli Gibbs & has shot both it and their Whitworth.

The main result was that the Gibbs and the Whitworth are well worth acquiring and both are quite competitive in the long range game. There might be some further info here that could be of interest.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Pedersoli+Whitworth+Rifle

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331865 - 04/09/19 08:15 AM

None of Pedersoli products are cheap. Gone are the days when you could buy Italian at a reasonable price. It should be here Thursday along with a bunch of goodies. Ordered the Whitworth mold today from Buffalo arms. Been shooting the Henery to keep my self occupied.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331866 - 04/09/19 08:41 AM

That's great. I have heard over the years a number of times, that the original, or might even have been the reproduction Whitworth Rifles shot just as well with round projectiles as with hexagonal ones.
Are they to be paper patched?
Does the literature suggest a lube cookie? That would indeed
help keep the fouling soft for subsequent loads. You should not have to wipe between shots.
Powder, then VERY thin wad - tissue or bee brood foundation like Curly uses, then grease cookie, then thin card - say .030", then the bullet.
The idea is that the powder flame must get at the lube cookie to liquefy and mix it with the fouling. This works a treat in ctg. guns and should be no different in the ML.
This is exciting.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331870 - 04/09/19 11:36 AM

The mold for the hex slug says it is a paper patch But I think Buff arms is incorrect. the other mold I ordered from Accurate arrived yesterday. It is a conical and drops from the mold at .452 and weighs 505gr.I cast some out of pure lead and they will be the first tried. I see lots of experimentation. If I have to paper patch there is going to be a learning curve. Tried it once before and wasn't very successful.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331905 - 05/09/19 08:39 AM

Well my gun arrived a day earlier than expected. Pedersoli did as expected. The fit is a little sloppy around the tang but all else seems right as rain. As usual I got in a bit of a hurry an ordered some stuff a little early. Looks like I am going to have to make a sizing die for the cylindrical bullet. It drops from the mold at .452 and it needs to be .449. I did a little to much internet reading When I should have waited on the gun. The other Mold should be here in a couple of days. Its hexagonal and made for the gun by Pedersoli. I completed my Hex wad punch today and it punches out nice little hexagonal wads. At least something worked. One other thing of note the gun is so straight stocked that it is hard to line the sights up when the rear sight is set on the 100yd mark. Brit's must be built funny. No offense meant.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331924 - 05/09/19 07:00 PM

Quote:

...I have heard over the years a number of times, that the original, or might even have been the reproduction Whitworth Rifles shot just as well with round projectiles as with hexagonal ones...




From the description of a Julia auction listing for a Model 1862 Whitworth trials rifle; "has long range adjustable ladder sight, which is marked “C” on right and “H” on left showing two separate ranges for use of either “Conical” or “Hexagonal” ammunition."



Here's the listing. A beautiful artifact: Morphy



From an NRA article; "It didn’t take long to discover that conical bullets fired in Whitworths, because of setback, provided accuracy as good as hexagonal rounds, and subsequently the two types were used interchangeably."

The article: Am Rifleman


Paper patch:
Whitworth


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331935 - 06/09/19 02:38 AM

Sounds good, Wayne. The punch would make cutting wads from medium bee brood foundation very
easy as well. Capt. Curl uses bee brood for his patched loads with lube ball.

Paul Matthews noted the 'change' to the wax in his book, "Loading Black Powder Rifle Cartridges".
Prior to that, he used wax-paper disks as did I he's originally noted in "The Paper Jacket", with perfect results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331944 - 06/09/19 07:08 AM

Found on the 'net, as written by Joseph Whitworth:


INSTRUCTIONS FOR LOADING & CLEANING
THE
WHITWORTH PATENT MILITARY RIFLE
CHARGE

The charge is 2½ drachms, or 70 grains, of No. 6 size powder of the best quality. It should be accurately weighed.

WAD

The lubricating wad should always be used for continuous firing. It is put between the powder and the projectile.

PROJECTILE

The cylindrical form of projectile is the best for general use. It is 530 grains in weight and is wrapped with paper. In loading, the projectile should be pressed gently home, and should not be so forced down as to crush the lubricating wad or the grains of powder. Projectiles cast from the mould are not to be relied upon for accurate shooting, unless they are passed through a die-press.

CARTRIDGE

To save the trouble of weighing the charges, and pressing the projectiles, it is recommended to use the Whitworth Patent Cartridge, in which the powder is carefully weighed, and the projectiles are uniform in weight, size, and figure. This Cartridge consists of a tube, containing the projectile, patent lubricating wad, and powder, placed in their proper order, ready for use. The powder is kept in the tube by a valve, or trap. When the cartridge is used, the end containing the powder is inserted in the muzzle of the rifle (which is chamfered to receive it,) and is held there with the left hand. The ramrod, which should be previously withdrawn from the stock, is held in the right hand. The trap is withdrawn by the finger and thumb of the right hand, and the powder falls into the barrel. The ramrod is then pushed through the tube, taking down with it the projectile and lubricating wad, which should be gradually and gently pressed. The emptied tube is thrown away, and the loading is complete.

The cartridges should be kept dry, but should not be subjected to a heat higher than 90° Fahrenheit.

CLEANING

The rifle is cleaned in the usual way with sponge, woollen cleaner, or a little tow wrapped round the brass jag, which fits on the end of the ramrod. When the loose dirt is washed out, the wire brush will readily remove any hard dirt that may remain. It is advisable to use hot water in cleaning the rifle to ensure the perfect dryness of the barrel afterwards, as any damp remaining in the barrel, after cleaning, would be very injurious.



Link:

Link: Whitworth

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331946 - 06/09/19 09:44 AM

I like the sight on the original. It is slightly different. I think today has been a total waist. I made a sizing die to size the bullet from .425 to .459 but the pressure deforms the bullet. I have a die on the way that is .451 and hopefully the intermediate size will take some of the pressure off the bullet. If not I will have to order another mold that is the correct dia.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331953 - 06/09/19 12:48 PM

Slight miss print. I meant .452 to .448. At any rate I was sitting here stewing when it dawned on me what I was doing wrong. One small change and I am ready to Rock and roll.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331961 - 06/09/19 07:42 PM

.



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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331970 - 07/09/19 12:13 AM

Sounds good, Wayne. Use a good lube for sizing them down, which will have to be removed before patching.

For cast lead or guilding metal jacketed bullet reduction, I like Ponsness Warren's STOS, high pressure reloading press lube. It goes on easily and comes off easily as well. It also makes a great sizing lube for ctg. cases.
Imperial Die Wax is also good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331990 - 07/09/19 09:01 AM

Hexagonal mold arrived today. I promptly degreased it and cast about forty bullets. They sure are neat but the add was correct in that they will need paper patching. Proceed to make a brass in*line seater today and a template. should finish in the next day or so. Have to mow tomorrow.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331993 - 07/09/19 10:29 AM

Did my grass yesterday. Tested the new brake on my .375 today. Couldn't make them all touch, but close enough for moose and elk. LOL
A hexagonal punch for the bee brood or wax paper will be needed.
I slightly large round disk might work, but will be fiddly.

9 pound onion skin is common, but use what is needed to get a snug fit.
Simplicity patterns are thinner yet. Keep that in mind.
I've patched with .003" printer paper and it worked just fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332002 - 07/09/19 12:32 PM

Already made the hex punch. Using P pound paper two wraps and it will just start in the bore. Just now finished an inline seater for the paper patch bullet that should aline it and start it down the bore. Now I need to make the second one for the grease groove bullet. Maybe tomorrow after mowing. Well I am beat and it's bed time.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332036 - 08/09/19 03:11 AM

Good work. Got some god looking neighbourhood young women to help?
They say women are best at licking the patches before application as their their saliva causes the patches to shrink better onto the bullets.

That might be an "old man's tale".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332062 - 08/09/19 11:15 AM

Around here that will get you arrested. After mowing this morning and my nap I worked on my template. Haven't tried it out yet but hopefully it will work. Read on the net where some people are gluing the patches on. Anybody tried that. May be water glue. Any way just a thought. I did cut one patch by hand and did wrap my first hexagonal bullet. Turned out pretty good if I do say so my self. What is everyone using for lube on these and are you lubing before hand or lubeing them as you load.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332084 - 09/09/19 02:32 AM

If you put lube on the patch, and I think you should as it will help waterproof them & help with loading, you must use a non-oily lube.
A test will have to be done.

I found 60 high quality Beeswax/40% Vaseline worked for me, for both on the patch and as a lube cookie. Mixed by volume.
The late, Great Paul Mathews wrote a few books on paper patching and his "work" saved me a LOT of experimenting.
He used 45% Beeswax, 55% Vaseline, but changed up and used a different one on the patch.

I would not glue the patches on - that will screw up your accuracy. If applied wet, then they will be fairly well stuck to the bullets. Dry patches will likely only tear when attempting to push them down the barrel.

The rifling should cut the patch from the bullet, allowing it to fly off in strips as the bullet leaves the muzzle.
If glued to the bullet with something like water glass, I assume the brittle water glass will fracture and some will come off, some might not. I cannot see any sort of gluing as being suitable.
It might work OK, I just can't see it happening. my opinion only.
If a grooved lubed round bullet will work for hunting, that is what I would use for hunting. Likely paper patches for target work, but if hunting, grooved lubed all the way.
The more lube the better.
I have had really good luck with my own lube, Beeswax60:40Vaseline, equal actually to Lyman's Black Powder Gold and SPG as well.
Buffalo Arms should have the commercial lubes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332088 - 09/09/19 04:40 AM

So far today I have made a Hex cleaning jag. It turned out great and was actually easy to make. Then I went to work on my template. It is just a little long so I took a smidgen off the end and then cut a patch and patched a bullet. Now you have to weight for it to dry to be able to see the seem clearly. Haven't checked it yet. Hopefully it will be correct this time. All this practices is making my bullets look a lot better.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332098 - 09/09/19 07:56 AM

Excellent!
The reason the lube on the patch cannot be oily, is that oil will disrupt the patch necessary leaving the bullet at the muzzle. If it or parts of it adhere, accuracy will be negatively effected.
"The Paper Jacket" and "Loading Black Powder Rifle Cartridges", both by Paul Mathews can and will be a good addition to anyone's library.
In the books, Paul writes of friend & gun smith who was muzzle/breech loading his rifle- to good effect, & using paper patched bullets. Too, he was using a thumb tack as a 100 yard target.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332104 - 09/09/19 09:28 AM

I don't know anyone that can see a thumb tack at 100yds. At least not with the naked eye. I have read Mr Mathews book many years ago and it was informative. I am going to start with a wax cookie than My secret formula BP bullet lube (60%Bees wax 20% Vasoline and20% peanut oil) and top that with a waxed cardboard wad. We will see where that leads me. These bullets fit the bore snugly so some form of lube may be needed to get it down the bore. I also have some felt wads made up to try. A hard card wad will go down the bore first followed buy a lubed felt wad (moose milk) and then the bullet. Recommendations are to use no compression and 70grs 3F powder. Should be exciting.Now if the weather would just cool down at least into the mid 80s. These temps around here are starting to suck.

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