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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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Wayne59
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New Muzzle loader
      #331803 - 31/08/19 11:25 AM

For those interested in such things I have a new muzzle loader coming in next week. I have always been fascinated with the Whitworth so I ordered one of the new Pedersoli Whitworth's. Anyone had any experience with one of these. Bought a new Henry 1860 iron frame last week. This is killing my budget.

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tinker
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331806 - 31/08/19 01:17 PM

I haven't owned that model from pedersoli, but I'm looking forward to seeing how you do with the new rifle.

Keep us posted!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Iowa_303s
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: tinker]
      #331807 - 31/08/19 02:45 PM

I haven't used the Pedersoli Whitworth but have shot a friends Pedersoli Volunteer rifle.
Good fun going prone at 600 yards with a 500+ grain bullet!

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331847 - 03/09/19 06:58 PM

Quote:

I have always been fascinated with the Whitworth so I ordered one of the new Pedersoli Whitworth's.



I dabbled in muzzleloading in the 1980s (still have an 1861 Colt musket repro.) and was very interested in the Whitworth that Pedersoli was making then. They weren't cheap!





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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331860 - 04/09/19 01:59 AM

Wayne, I just got back from rendezvous at Hefley Creek, BC. While there I happened to be in a conversation with a lad who has a Pedersoli Gibbs & has shot both it and their Whitworth.

The main result was that the Gibbs and the Whitworth are well worth acquiring and both are quite competitive in the long range game. There might be some further info here that could be of interest.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Pedersoli+Whitworth+Rifle

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331865 - 04/09/19 08:15 AM

None of Pedersoli products are cheap. Gone are the days when you could buy Italian at a reasonable price. It should be here Thursday along with a bunch of goodies. Ordered the Whitworth mold today from Buffalo arms. Been shooting the Henery to keep my self occupied.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331866 - 04/09/19 08:41 AM

That's great. I have heard over the years a number of times, that the original, or might even have been the reproduction Whitworth Rifles shot just as well with round projectiles as with hexagonal ones.
Are they to be paper patched?
Does the literature suggest a lube cookie? That would indeed
help keep the fouling soft for subsequent loads. You should not have to wipe between shots.
Powder, then VERY thin wad - tissue or bee brood foundation like Curly uses, then grease cookie, then thin card - say .030", then the bullet.
The idea is that the powder flame must get at the lube cookie to liquefy and mix it with the fouling. This works a treat in ctg. guns and should be no different in the ML.
This is exciting.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331870 - 04/09/19 11:36 AM

The mold for the hex slug says it is a paper patch But I think Buff arms is incorrect. the other mold I ordered from Accurate arrived yesterday. It is a conical and drops from the mold at .452 and weighs 505gr.I cast some out of pure lead and they will be the first tried. I see lots of experimentation. If I have to paper patch there is going to be a learning curve. Tried it once before and wasn't very successful.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331905 - 05/09/19 08:39 AM

Well my gun arrived a day earlier than expected. Pedersoli did as expected. The fit is a little sloppy around the tang but all else seems right as rain. As usual I got in a bit of a hurry an ordered some stuff a little early. Looks like I am going to have to make a sizing die for the cylindrical bullet. It drops from the mold at .452 and it needs to be .449. I did a little to much internet reading When I should have waited on the gun. The other Mold should be here in a couple of days. Its hexagonal and made for the gun by Pedersoli. I completed my Hex wad punch today and it punches out nice little hexagonal wads. At least something worked. One other thing of note the gun is so straight stocked that it is hard to line the sights up when the rear sight is set on the 100yd mark. Brit's must be built funny. No offense meant.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331924 - 05/09/19 07:00 PM

Quote:

...I have heard over the years a number of times, that the original, or might even have been the reproduction Whitworth Rifles shot just as well with round projectiles as with hexagonal ones...



From the description of a Julia auction listing for a Model 1862 Whitworth trials rifle; "has long range adjustable ladder sight, which is marked “C” on right and “H” on left showing two separate ranges for use of either “Conical” or “Hexagonal” ammunition."



Here's the listing. A beautiful artifact: Morphy



From an NRA article; "It didn’t take long to discover that conical bullets fired in Whitworths, because of setback, provided accuracy as good as hexagonal rounds, and subsequently the two types were used interchangeably."

The article: Am Rifleman


Paper patch:
Whitworth

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331935 - 06/09/19 02:38 AM

Sounds good, Wayne. The punch would make cutting wads from medium bee brood foundation very
easy as well. Capt. Curl uses bee brood for his patched loads with lube ball.

Paul Matthews noted the 'change' to the wax in his book, "Loading Black Powder Rifle Cartridges".
Prior to that, he used wax-paper disks as did I he's originally noted in "The Paper Jacket", with perfect results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331944 - 06/09/19 07:08 AM

Found on the 'net, as written by Joseph Whitworth:


INSTRUCTIONS FOR LOADING & CLEANING
THE
WHITWORTH PATENT MILITARY RIFLE
CHARGE

The charge is 2½ drachms, or 70 grains, of No. 6 size powder of the best quality. It should be accurately weighed.

WAD

The lubricating wad should always be used for continuous firing. It is put between the powder and the projectile.

PROJECTILE

The cylindrical form of projectile is the best for general use. It is 530 grains in weight and is wrapped with paper. In loading, the projectile should be pressed gently home, and should not be so forced down as to crush the lubricating wad or the grains of powder. Projectiles cast from the mould are not to be relied upon for accurate shooting, unless they are passed through a die-press.

CARTRIDGE

To save the trouble of weighing the charges, and pressing the projectiles, it is recommended to use the Whitworth Patent Cartridge, in which the powder is carefully weighed, and the projectiles are uniform in weight, size, and figure. This Cartridge consists of a tube, containing the projectile, patent lubricating wad, and powder, placed in their proper order, ready for use. The powder is kept in the tube by a valve, or trap. When the cartridge is used, the end containing the powder is inserted in the muzzle of the rifle (which is chamfered to receive it,) and is held there with the left hand. The ramrod, which should be previously withdrawn from the stock, is held in the right hand. The trap is withdrawn by the finger and thumb of the right hand, and the powder falls into the barrel. The ramrod is then pushed through the tube, taking down with it the projectile and lubricating wad, which should be gradually and gently pressed. The emptied tube is thrown away, and the loading is complete.

The cartridges should be kept dry, but should not be subjected to a heat higher than 90° Fahrenheit.

CLEANING

The rifle is cleaned in the usual way with sponge, woollen cleaner, or a little tow wrapped round the brass jag, which fits on the end of the ramrod. When the loose dirt is washed out, the wire brush will readily remove any hard dirt that may remain. It is advisable to use hot water in cleaning the rifle to ensure the perfect dryness of the barrel afterwards, as any damp remaining in the barrel, after cleaning, would be very injurious.



Link:

Link: Whitworth

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331946 - 06/09/19 09:44 AM

I like the sight on the original. It is slightly different. I think today has been a total waist. I made a sizing die to size the bullet from .425 to .459 but the pressure deforms the bullet. I have a die on the way that is .451 and hopefully the intermediate size will take some of the pressure off the bullet. If not I will have to order another mold that is the correct dia.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331953 - 06/09/19 12:48 PM

Slight miss print. I meant .452 to .448. At any rate I was sitting here stewing when it dawned on me what I was doing wrong. One small change and I am ready to Rock and roll.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331961 - 06/09/19 07:42 PM

.



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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #331970 - 07/09/19 12:13 AM

Sounds good, Wayne. Use a good lube for sizing them down, which will have to be removed before patching.

For cast lead or guilding metal jacketed bullet reduction, I like Ponsness Warren's STOS, high pressure reloading press lube. It goes on easily and comes off easily as well. It also makes a great sizing lube for ctg. cases.
Imperial Die Wax is also good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #331990 - 07/09/19 09:01 AM

Hexagonal mold arrived today. I promptly degreased it and cast about forty bullets. They sure are neat but the add was correct in that they will need paper patching. Proceed to make a brass in*line seater today and a template. should finish in the next day or so. Have to mow tomorrow.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #331993 - 07/09/19 10:29 AM

Did my grass yesterday. Tested the new brake on my .375 today. Couldn't make them all touch, but close enough for moose and elk. LOL
A hexagonal punch for the bee brood or wax paper will be needed.
I slightly large round disk might work, but will be fiddly.

9 pound onion skin is common, but use what is needed to get a snug fit.
Simplicity patterns are thinner yet. Keep that in mind.
I've patched with .003" printer paper and it worked just fine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332002 - 07/09/19 12:32 PM

Already made the hex punch. Using P pound paper two wraps and it will just start in the bore. Just now finished an inline seater for the paper patch bullet that should aline it and start it down the bore. Now I need to make the second one for the grease groove bullet. Maybe tomorrow after mowing. Well I am beat and it's bed time.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332036 - 08/09/19 03:11 AM

Good work. Got some god looking neighbourhood young women to help?
They say women are best at licking the patches before application as their their saliva causes the patches to shrink better onto the bullets.

That might be an "old man's tale".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332062 - 08/09/19 11:15 AM

Around here that will get you arrested. After mowing this morning and my nap I worked on my template. Haven't tried it out yet but hopefully it will work. Read on the net where some people are gluing the patches on. Anybody tried that. May be water glue. Any way just a thought. I did cut one patch by hand and did wrap my first hexagonal bullet. Turned out pretty good if I do say so my self. What is everyone using for lube on these and are you lubing before hand or lubeing them as you load.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332084 - 09/09/19 02:32 AM

If you put lube on the patch, and I think you should as it will help waterproof them & help with loading, you must use a non-oily lube.
A test will have to be done.

I found 60 high quality Beeswax/40% Vaseline worked for me, for both on the patch and as a lube cookie. Mixed by volume.
The late, Great Paul Mathews wrote a few books on paper patching and his "work" saved me a LOT of experimenting.
He used 45% Beeswax, 55% Vaseline, but changed up and used a different one on the patch.

I would not glue the patches on - that will screw up your accuracy. If applied wet, then they will be fairly well stuck to the bullets. Dry patches will likely only tear when attempting to push them down the barrel.

The rifling should cut the patch from the bullet, allowing it to fly off in strips as the bullet leaves the muzzle.
If glued to the bullet with something like water glass, I assume the brittle water glass will fracture and some will come off, some might not. I cannot see any sort of gluing as being suitable.
It might work OK, I just can't see it happening. my opinion only.
If a grooved lubed round bullet will work for hunting, that is what I would use for hunting. Likely paper patches for target work, but if hunting, grooved lubed all the way.
The more lube the better.
I have had really good luck with my own lube, Beeswax60:40Vaseline, equal actually to Lyman's Black Powder Gold and SPG as well.
Buffalo Arms should have the commercial lubes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332088 - 09/09/19 04:40 AM

So far today I have made a Hex cleaning jag. It turned out great and was actually easy to make. Then I went to work on my template. It is just a little long so I took a smidgen off the end and then cut a patch and patched a bullet. Now you have to weight for it to dry to be able to see the seem clearly. Haven't checked it yet. Hopefully it will be correct this time. All this practices is making my bullets look a lot better.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332098 - 09/09/19 07:56 AM

Excellent!
The reason the lube on the patch cannot be oily, is that oil will disrupt the patch necessary leaving the bullet at the muzzle. If it or parts of it adhere, accuracy will be negatively effected.
"The Paper Jacket" and "Loading Black Powder Rifle Cartridges", both by Paul Mathews can and will be a good addition to anyone's library.
In the books, Paul writes of friend & gun smith who was muzzle/breech loading his rifle- to good effect, & using paper patched bullets. Too, he was using a thumb tack as a 100 yard target.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332104 - 09/09/19 09:28 AM

I don't know anyone that can see a thumb tack at 100yds. At least not with the naked eye. I have read Mr Mathews book many years ago and it was informative. I am going to start with a wax cookie than My secret formula BP bullet lube (60%Bees wax 20% Vasoline and20% peanut oil) and top that with a waxed cardboard wad. We will see where that leads me. These bullets fit the bore snugly so some form of lube may be needed to get it down the bore. I also have some felt wads made up to try. A hard card wad will go down the bore first followed buy a lubed felt wad (moose milk) and then the bullet. Recommendations are to use no compression and 70grs 3F powder. Should be exciting.Now if the weather would just cool down at least into the mid 80s. These temps around here are starting to suck.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332130 - 10/09/19 08:41 AM

Temps close to 100 the rest of the week. Finished making the rest of the tooling today. Might as well make a loading stand for it. Wrapped some bullets for it last night. The hex bullets are easier to wrap than cylindrical bullets. these looked real good but the proof is in the pudding Hopefully I will be able to fins out in a few days. Nothing left to do but wait.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332137 - 10/09/19 11:00 AM

This is exciting! As to lube balls, etc, your BP lube sounds great.

For those who do not know, Vaseline works with BP fouling due to the fact it is actually a petroleum WAX, not an oil or grease, thus reacts differently than a Petroleum oil or grease would.

As to powder compression, try it both ways once you get a load for extended testing. We use slight compression in our ML's (RB or bullet) & ctg. guns to get even ignition and burning of the powder for lower shot to shot velocity spreads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332145 - 10/09/19 11:44 AM

Which makes me wonder if the ram rod has a hexagonal end to compress the powder charge?
Seems like a round rod end would leave little powder peaks in the corners.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Huvius]
      #332146 - 10/09/19 12:43 PM

The ram rod has a hexagonal end .You cant buy them I had to make it. The original rod that comes with the gun has a round end and it is bushing against a hex bullet. The peanut oil in the lube raises the burn temperature. The stuff even works with smokeless powder. I have never had a bore to lead and you get a nice lube star. The only draw back is when you get it on your fingers you can't hold on to a bullet or anything else for that matter. You ought to try it Daryl. I think you will like it. I will probable only get a couple of hours tomorrow very early morning before it is to hot to be out in it. But I cant stand it any more. I HAVE TO FIRE THIS GUN.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332172 - 11/09/19 03:04 AM

Huvious, the powder is 'packed/tamped' with the bullet or ball, not wuth the rod first.
Here is a short video in which I am loading & shooting my .45 round ball rifle. The process is the same, except I have shot over 50 rounds prior to this video being taken, no wiping at any time - all loaded and shot "dirty".
Note that once the ball is down, I place the starter's knob's hole over the end of the rod, then give it a smack. This is to compress the powder- slightly. I do this exactly the same way each time I load. I have found this reduces shot to shot velocity spreads. It also adds almost 100fps to the average velocity. The reason I do this is not for the added velocity, but for the increased precision & consistency.

[IMG]https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/th_Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4[/IMG]

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332181 - 11/09/19 06:29 AM

Maid its maiden trip to the range today. Started with the Hex bullets. About the second round during cleaning my new hex jag came off the cleaning rod (I knew I should have pinned it)and was stuck in the bottom of the bore. Well you know what comes next. Pulled the nipple and trickle a little powder behind it (its alright to laugh your ass off) and pointed the gun almost straight down and pulled the trigger. She came out of the bore and hit this rock hard ground and bounced. I spent twenty minutes looking for it and beleave it or not found it about forty yards from where it started. It was no worse for wear. The hex bullets did not shoot well so its back to the drawing board. Next I loaded some grease groove bullets and it seemed to like them. The first three shots went into an 1 1/4" at 100yds. I couldn't resist and fired one more shot and blew the group out to 2 1/2". The gun is definitely picky. Seems like if I deviate anything things go to hell in a hurry. At this point I had to give it up for the day. It was already about 90 out side. Got home and re-worked my lube cookies and made a peep-sight out of my rear sight. Hopefully this will help some in the accuracy. I think I will see if I can come up with some thinner paper and re patch the hex bullets and use some 2FF.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332184 - 11/09/19 07:11 AM

If I can make a suggestion again, 2F or 1F for the bullets, Wayne.

The only variation on this, would be 3F GOEX Old Enisford. That stuff actually shoots well in my Sharps - still experimenting with it.

The higher the pressures, however, the more often you will need a new nipple.

Old Enisford or Swiss 1 1/2F might be the best as it seems to be in the Sharps.

You are off to a great start. Change only one thing at a time and keep good notes.

Best of luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332185 - 11/09/19 07:14 AM

I have a first generation Parker Hale Volunteer .451, but Rigby style rifling. You will need a platinum lined nipple as the ordinary musket nipples will cut out in 20 or 30 shots and blow your group. I have been shooting pure lead but after receiving some great information from a long range shooter with lots of supporting evidence, will be going to a lead tin alloy bullet when I get the opportunity. I load powder and wads, then with a damp patch wipe the barrel followed by a dry patch. If you do it with a completely empty barrel you will push crud into the patent breach and have all sorts of trouble getting the charge to go off.
The supporting evidence showed that pure lead bullets slumped badly in the barrel and lost a lot of their aerodynamic shape, hence going to a harder bullet. 1/30 lead tin so its not super hard. I use a charge of 85 grains of FFg Goex
.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Heelerau]
      #332196 - 11/09/19 11:00 AM

Daryl I have 3 sharps cartridge guns and when I tried to switch to Old Einsford not one of them would shoot worth a dam. The can I have may very well have been out of the first run. Everyone raves on the stuff. I do have some of the Old Einsford 1 1/2 left I may try it. Heelarau I was cleaning the full barrel Between shots and had no problems but will keep it in mind. My hex bullet mold is already casting at the max size and if I go to a alloy bullet It will probably be to tight. But It may work for the grease groove bullets.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332206 - 11/09/19 07:24 PM

I am using the grease groove bullet recomended for the whitworth, it is about 475 grains, and seems to work well in my Volunteer at 200m. I will be interested to see what happens when all I change is the bullet alloy and see if she tightens up.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Heelerau]
      #332215 - 12/09/19 02:41 AM

If you don't go harder than 30:1, you should be find, Gordon.
In Wayne's Hex bore and with a round bullet, there is more obturation of the bullet required. An alloy of 40 Pb:1 Tin might work just fine though, and not increase the diameter of the cast bullet much if at all.
An antimony mix will likely do that, however.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332226 - 12/09/19 07:06 AM

I am going to try casting some bullets tomorrow at 40/1. Today's foray using 2FF with the hex bullets was much improved. It shot 2 5/8" at 100yds. The max charge seems to be 70grs. A slightly harder bullet may help that. You also have to clean this gun every shot or you cant get a Hex slug down the bore and accuracy goes away. Did not get a chance to try the OLD Eniaford.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332234 - 12/09/19 08:06 AM

Daryl, will let you know the results. Still waiting for a new cone from Rick W as I had to drill and re tap my bolster due to some nasty gas cutting.

Cheers

Gordon

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Heelerau]
      #332235 - 12/09/19 08:25 AM

Sounds as if the lube wad is not enough, Wayne. Too, the powder's flame must have access to the lube, to spread it all through the fouling, just as it does with the ctg. guns.

In this respect, the round bullet might be better, after all.
Having to wipe the bore between shots does not bode well for a hunting rifle.

My Sharps gave me identical accuracy with 1F GOEX as it did with 1 1/2F Swiss powder. The GOEX is slower, of course and I could not get as much(weight)powder into the case.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332249 - 12/09/19 09:55 AM

I have a really neat lube cookie I made up for the gun. It has about a 1/16" paraffin layer on the bottom and About a 3/8" lube on top of it. The gun should be swimming in lube. Its just extremely tight. It is suppose to be .451 and this bore measures .448. I am not to worried about hunting with the gun I can always use the regular grease groove bullets for that. Besides they do have the edge in accuracy. I may have to fire lap the bore and open it up about a .0005. The sides on the Hexagon are straight so it should not hurt anything.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332323 - 14/09/19 09:16 AM

Question for those who do a lot of paper patching. Is there any reason you cant use one wrap of paper on a bullet.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332324 - 14/09/19 10:15 AM

No real reason other than the patch has to have something to cling to, which generally is itself.
So two wraps is the norm.
You could, however, use a cruciform patch (forget what that’s called) which is placed upon the muzzle and folds around the bullet as it enters the barrel.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Huvius]
      #332331 - 14/09/19 11:40 AM

I may have solved my problem. Cigarette paper. Its pretty easily torn so you have to be careful when wrapping the bullet but two wraps and it slides right down the bore with no trouble. I will know as soon as I shoot the 11 bullets I just patched. This is so much fun my next gun may be a Gibbs.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332353 - 15/09/19 02:58 AM

Huvius's idea of the cruciform patch (CROSS of 2 strips) is possibly do-able, however, you would likely need a false muzzle arrangement to properly align them and hold them while they fold into the muzzle.

Single wrap I have used, but it was a single wrap of masking tape. This worked in my bro's Sharps with only .0015" deep rifling. The gun shot jacketed bullets from 300gr. to 500gr. Hornadys beautifully with 100gr. black powder or smokeless but cast bullets were impossible to keep under about 6 to 8" at 100 yards with smokeless or black.

Switching to an undersized bullet, then patching the bullet up to bore size, solved the accuracy problems in Taylor's rifle. In that one, we found masking tape, one wrap was perfect, while in mine(Hoch bl.), a double wrap of .003" bond, was perfect. These under sized loads (bore dia - not groove dia) were only shot with black powder charges, as per Paul Mathews writings.

We both used lube cookies of 60:40 BW:Vaseline with a light smear of the same lube on the outside of the patch.

I could fire 10 shots, one after the other as fast as I could load and shoot, then with one dry patch, push all the accumulated fouling out the bore. No leading, no hard fouling.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332365 - 15/09/19 09:53 AM

I am going to the range tomorrow and will be trying the 40/1 cigarette patched bullets. today I cast some more Hex bullets with 70% ww and 30% led and they came out .007 larger than pure led. They seem to fit perfectly with no patch. I am going to run a lubed patch down the bore so it dose not lead and see what happens. Sure would be nice if I didn't have to paper patch.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332370 - 15/09/19 11:00 AM

Interesting indeed, that the WW/PB mix would cast that much larger.
I found a 50:50 mix of pure lead and WW to work beautifully in my .50 Alaskan with BP loads.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332376 - 15/09/19 11:35 AM

I was surprised. I expected maybe .003. I did run the lead at 800 deg. and the mold as hot as I could get it. If it bumps up any at all it will be a very snug fit. I am hoping to be able to increase the powder and really boost the velocity and get good accuracy.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332415 - 16/09/19 11:11 AM

Well today's session at the range did not go as expected. The hardened slugs did not shoot great. about a 3 1/2" at 100 yards. Ran the powder up to 90grs and the groups remained about the same. The lead mixture may be to hard to bump up properly. May try 50/50 but it will have to wait until I have a chance to mix some. I am seriously thinking about a globe front sight and a tang sight for the rear.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332424 - 17/09/19 02:10 AM

IIRC 30:1 is about the hardest that will bump up with small powder charges, up to 100gr. or so.

Good sights should make an improvement, for sure.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332440 - 17/09/19 08:44 AM

I found an article yesterday were at the long range matches they are using 65/1 so I made some up today. I will try it out in the next couple days.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332441 - 17/09/19 11:10 AM

I'm enjoying this.
Keep it going.



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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332478 - 18/09/19 03:04 AM

I think my bro is using 30:1, maybe 40:1 in his Sharps with bore sized bullets AFTER patching.

This is his long range load. He is not using a cookie, but is wiping with a bore pig after every shot.

He is also loading 85gr. 1 1/2F Swiss in the .45/70 case with only .050" compression, thin wad and bullet is only in the case 1/8".

This TYPE of loading regime works in his 18" twist.
Do you know what the rate of twist is in your rifle, Wayne?

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332486 - 18/09/19 08:02 AM

Daryl The twist is one in twenty. This gun may have a barrel problem. Pedersoli is none for choke boring there barrels. This barrel is loose at the muzzle and gets tighter as you push the slug down the bore. I am going to check this out further tomorrow.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332493 - 18/09/19 09:59 AM

Yes - sounds as if they did it bas-ackwards, tapering and breeching the wrong end, - hopefully not the case, but if so, they should willingly with haste, replace it like pronto.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332516 - 19/09/19 03:13 AM

Made it to the range today. Changing the lead tin content made a huge difference in bullet fit and accuracy. Cant figure why going from pure lead to 65/1 would make such a difference but it worked. This rifle seems to like small doses of 3f. As usual I started at the wrong end of the scale so the next trip to the range I will be starting with about 50grs. Looks like I am going to have a tool box full of tools for this gun before I am finished. Today was defiantly a step in the right direction. I made up some plug gages last night and tried them in the rifle. Even though they don't show anything wrong in the barrel it still feels like it is choked backwards. A little more shooting should tell the hole story.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332541 - 20/09/19 06:01 AM

I did not go to the range today instead I casted some more slugs and went shopping. I swear this pedersoli mold is getting better every time I use it. These are the best looking bullets I have ever cast. I found some felt to make 1/3" wads and some Bee wax. Now if I could just find some Mutton tallow.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332544 - 20/09/19 07:19 AM

You can also use Vaseline. Some guys use Olive Oil, but I've always had better accuracy with Vaseline.

I used my 60:40 BW:Vas mix on REAL grooved bullets in my .45 cal. longrifle.

I was able to fire 10 consecutive shots, shot after shot, no wiping and grouping under 1 1/2" at 50 yards, then go right back to shooting patched round balls without any wiping needed.

The BW:Vas worked just as well in my longrifle, as-did the same mix in my Rolling Block with .50 cal. 550gr. bullets.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332549 - 20/09/19 10:42 AM

I am actually shooting for some authenticity but if it gets to expensive or goes rancid to quickly then I wont mess with it again.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332574 - 21/09/19 02:40 AM

If you can find well rendered deer or mutton tallow, it will not go rancid.
Beef and others will.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332580 - 21/09/19 07:53 AM

That"s good to know. I ordered some Swiss 1.5 and 3f today. Its kind of disappointing when you can remember buying powder for $3.00 a pound all day long. With the hazmat fee it was $32.00 a pound. The hazmat fee ($20.00)the adult signature fee ($4.50) and finally the shipping fee ($9.95). That's more than a pound of powder.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332583 - 21/09/19 08:53 AM

I remember $0.75 for Curtis and Harvey's in about 1958.
We pay $50.00 for Swiss. Needless to say, I bought none. I expect to be shooting mostly my .36 flinter for a while. It uses only 35gr. 3f GOEX. The GOEX now costs us $30.00 and #32.00 for Old Enysford, so I picked up a few pounds of that one as well.

My Sharps likes 3F OE with 506gr. 457658DV Lyman "Schmitzer".

Just thinking, the Schmitzer bullet, if lubed, then sized down to bore size would be a good 'target' bullet for your new rifle.



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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332587 - 21/09/19 10:51 AM

You would have to size that bullet .010. I tried that with some of the Hotch bullets out of one of my molds and they did not shoot worth a dam. You have to run them through about five dies to get to .447 without distorting them. I could not make them work.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332600 - 22/09/19 02:36 AM

Interesting. I have some fairly hard 310gr. .375's lubed with Rooster Red that I sized down for the 9.3x62. That worked just fine, as well
as some 250gr. from my RCBS mould lubed with Lyman Moly. Pure lead, or close to pure lead would likely distort badly. When I made this post,
I did not consider that aspect.
I used my bullet drawing die and that in itself might have been the reason mine didn't distort.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332652 - 24/09/19 03:16 AM

Well I took another shot at it yesterday. I changed from a lube cookie to a lubed felt wad. Started with a low powder charge and worked my way up to 80gr 3f and the groups started to come together. Ran out of range time and powder before I could Finnish. I have powder coming in but it is Swiss instead of Goex so I will be starting again. At least I am getting lots of practice. This is by far the most finicky muzzle loader I have seen but I will get it if my shoulder dose not give out first.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332658 - 24/09/19 04:07 AM

A note about Swiss powder. Some guys have found that once the powder charge gets too large/high for a given projectile, they start to have hard dry fouling problems.

In my .50/90 Rolling Block, I used an OXYoke lubed wad under the bullet, with thin card between the wad and bullet. This allowed repeated shooting without wiping, same as with a lube cookie.

When testing hard kicking loads, I generally wear a PAST shoulder protector. It eliminates ALL recoil problems for me.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332662 - 24/09/19 08:53 AM

I wear a past also. I had a 3/8" felt wad under the bullet and two card wads. fowling hasn't been a problem yet.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332685 - 25/09/19 03:06 AM

Birds of a feather! With minimal fouling only load changes.
Changing wads can also effect the grouping.
Was wondering, why 2 cards?

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332864 - 01/10/19 11:34 AM

Sorry Daryl I did not see your last post. The two wads was just the way they use to do it. I will be doing more experimenting as soon as the weather breaks. It is to dam hot. My swiss powder came in and The last time I shot I was up to 90grs of 3f. group was starting to close up. Pedersoli's max load is 100grs. I am sure the gun will stand more. I have another new to me muzzle loader coming in this week that I am sure you would appreciate. It is an English sporting rifle in aprox. 69 cal. As near as I can figure it was made around 1865. The gun was manufactured in Birmingham and retailed out of London. Builders name was Robert Hughes. The gun seems to be in fair shape. I will know more when it shows up. Their are a couple of things in the photo that look like they could stand a little attention. The bore will be the deciding factor. If it is usable then it will be a steel. Time will tell.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332881 - 02/10/19 01:15 AM

The Swiss powder will likely help.
Did Pedersoli mention the need for platinum lined nipples?
Looking forward to seeing the new rifle!
Scotch Brite can do wonders for frosting and light pits that hold fouling.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332883 - 02/10/19 03:04 AM

Pedersoli did not mention a platinum nipple but I installed one anyway. Sixty five dollars for a nipple, can you beleave it. I have Scotch Brite in green and gray. I am well prepared.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332889 - 02/10/19 07:52 AM

Those nipples are expensive, but $65.00 is less than the $85.00 I saw listed about 10 years ago.

When I had the .50 Bauska barrel on my rifle back in the 70's, I was shooting 400gr. RN grooved bullets from an old adjustable Lyman mould, now discontinued, unfortunately.
I made up a die out of a piece of the barrel and pushed the cast bullets through it after lubing them by hand. This engraved the rifling on them, about 1/2 deep, or about .004/5
thou. The rifling was .008" deep and 38" twist.

These shot into an inch to 1 1/2" at 100 yards at the Barnet range, in Burnaby, but I had to replace the stainless nipple every 25 or 30 shots or the groups would enlarge.

I was running double apertures and was shooting 3-position and prone competition at that time with my .308 Match rifle, both any sight, and metallics.

I am quite sure your rifle will do as well, once you get it dialed in.

I just remembered that one of the guys here in BC used to use the Pedersoli Volunteer rifle in .45, for the special weapons moose hunt just 4 hours North of here. He used the multi-grooved 480gr. .451" Lyman bullet and 85gr. 2F, I think.
I also recall he used SPG in the grooves.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332890 - 02/10/19 09:15 AM

I am going to try the max load of 3f the next time I take it to the range.If that dose not show progress than I am going to start from scratch. It may be my patching. I was looking at my raps today and they seem to be over lapping about .030 on the second lap. I don't know if this will hurt anything. My new mold should be in in a couple of days. This time I ordered the correct size. Next week it is supposed to cool down drastically ( I hope ). It is frustrating to get out there and than have to quit before you are ready.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332920 - 03/10/19 02:51 AM

Yes - no overlap is allowed. A gap of a few to about .020" is OK, but overlap will hurt accuracy. It pushes the bullet off centre.
Too, the twist of the paper(angle) should be faster than the angle of the rifling, or slower. Paul Mathews felt the angle should be opposite of the rifling, whereas original Sharps ammo meant for very shallow rifling of .002" or so, had the patch angled in the same direction as the rifling to it would theoretically unwrap when it left the muzzle.
Paul wanted the patch cut into strips.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332925 - 03/10/19 07:08 AM

My new conical mold showed up today so tomorrow morning you can guess what I will be doing. My English sporting rifle shipped yesterday and should be here Friday. Going to be a busy weekend. Now watch it rain next week.

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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332971 - 04/10/19 04:32 AM

Keep up posted, pls.

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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #333300 - 11/10/19 08:08 AM

For those who were keeping up with this thread I was unsuccessful with the Whitworth. I contacted their warranty Dept. So I will be sending it in to have the barrel replaced. They had me run a test on it. It showed what I was thinking all along. The barrel is bad. This is the second gun in a row that I have had to send back. This is getting old.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #333308 - 11/10/19 12:23 PM

The bright side here is that they are dealing with the problem.

I wish you the best success in the process.
I'd really like to see this work out nicely in the end.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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