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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332130 - 10/09/19 08:41 AM

Temps close to 100 the rest of the week. Finished making the rest of the tooling today. Might as well make a loading stand for it. Wrapped some bullets for it last night. The hex bullets are easier to wrap than cylindrical bullets. these looked real good but the proof is in the pudding Hopefully I will be able to fins out in a few days. Nothing left to do but wait.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332137 - 10/09/19 11:00 AM

This is exciting! As to lube balls, etc, your BP lube sounds great.

For those who do not know, Vaseline works with BP fouling due to the fact it is actually a petroleum WAX, not an oil or grease, thus reacts differently than a Petroleum oil or grease would.

As to powder compression, try it both ways once you get a load for extended testing. We use slight compression in our ML's (RB or bullet) & ctg. guns to get even ignition and burning of the powder for lower shot to shot velocity spreads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332145 - 10/09/19 11:44 AM

Which makes me wonder if the ram rod has a hexagonal end to compress the powder charge?
Seems like a round rod end would leave little powder peaks in the corners.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Huvius]
      #332146 - 10/09/19 12:43 PM

The ram rod has a hexagonal end .You cant buy them I had to make it. The original rod that comes with the gun has a round end and it is bushing against a hex bullet. The peanut oil in the lube raises the burn temperature. The stuff even works with smokeless powder. I have never had a bore to lead and you get a nice lube star. The only draw back is when you get it on your fingers you can't hold on to a bullet or anything else for that matter. You ought to try it Daryl. I think you will like it. I will probable only get a couple of hours tomorrow very early morning before it is to hot to be out in it. But I cant stand it any more. I HAVE TO FIRE THIS GUN.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332172 - 11/09/19 03:04 AM

Huvious, the powder is 'packed/tamped' with the bullet or ball, not wuth the rod first.
Here is a short video in which I am loading & shooting my .45 round ball rifle. The process is the same, except I have shot over 50 rounds prior to this video being taken, no wiping at any time - all loaded and shot "dirty".
Note that once the ball is down, I place the starter's knob's hole over the end of the rod, then give it a smack. This is to compress the powder- slightly. I do this exactly the same way each time I load. I have found this reduces shot to shot velocity spreads. It also adds almost 100fps to the average velocity. The reason I do this is not for the added velocity, but for the increased precision & consistency.

[IMG]https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/58%20Kodiak%20Refinish/th_Movie-LoadingandShooting_zpsa177c1af.mp4[/IMG]

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332181 - 11/09/19 06:29 AM

Maid its maiden trip to the range today. Started with the Hex bullets. About the second round during cleaning my new hex jag came off the cleaning rod (I knew I should have pinned it)and was stuck in the bottom of the bore. Well you know what comes next. Pulled the nipple and trickle a little powder behind it (its alright to laugh your ass off) and pointed the gun almost straight down and pulled the trigger. She came out of the bore and hit this rock hard ground and bounced. I spent twenty minutes looking for it and beleave it or not found it about forty yards from where it started. It was no worse for wear. The hex bullets did not shoot well so its back to the drawing board. Next I loaded some grease groove bullets and it seemed to like them. The first three shots went into an 1 1/4" at 100yds. I couldn't resist and fired one more shot and blew the group out to 2 1/2". The gun is definitely picky. Seems like if I deviate anything things go to hell in a hurry. At this point I had to give it up for the day. It was already about 90 out side. Got home and re-worked my lube cookies and made a peep-sight out of my rear sight. Hopefully this will help some in the accuracy. I think I will see if I can come up with some thinner paper and re patch the hex bullets and use some 2FF.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332184 - 11/09/19 07:11 AM

If I can make a suggestion again, 2F or 1F for the bullets, Wayne.

The only variation on this, would be 3F GOEX Old Enisford. That stuff actually shoots well in my Sharps - still experimenting with it.

The higher the pressures, however, the more often you will need a new nipple.

Old Enisford or Swiss 1 1/2F might be the best as it seems to be in the Sharps.

You are off to a great start. Change only one thing at a time and keep good notes.

Best of luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Reged: 31/01/17
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332185 - 11/09/19 07:14 AM

I have a first generation Parker Hale Volunteer .451, but Rigby style rifling. You will need a platinum lined nipple as the ordinary musket nipples will cut out in 20 or 30 shots and blow your group. I have been shooting pure lead but after receiving some great information from a long range shooter with lots of supporting evidence, will be going to a lead tin alloy bullet when I get the opportunity. I load powder and wads, then with a damp patch wipe the barrel followed by a dry patch. If you do it with a completely empty barrel you will push crud into the patent breach and have all sorts of trouble getting the charge to go off.
The supporting evidence showed that pure lead bullets slumped badly in the barrel and lost a lot of their aerodynamic shape, hence going to a harder bullet. 1/30 lead tin so its not super hard. I use a charge of 85 grains of FFg Goex
.

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Heelerau]
      #332196 - 11/09/19 11:00 AM

Daryl I have 3 sharps cartridge guns and when I tried to switch to Old Einsford not one of them would shoot worth a dam. The can I have may very well have been out of the first run. Everyone raves on the stuff. I do have some of the Old Einsford 1 1/2 left I may try it. Heelarau I was cleaning the full barrel Between shots and had no problems but will keep it in mind. My hex bullet mold is already casting at the max size and if I go to a alloy bullet It will probably be to tight. But It may work for the grease groove bullets.

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Heelerau
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332206 - 11/09/19 07:24 PM

I am using the grease groove bullet recomended for the whitworth, it is about 475 grains, and seems to work well in my Volunteer at 200m. I will be interested to see what happens when all I change is the bullet alloy and see if she tightens up.

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Heelerau]
      #332215 - 12/09/19 02:41 AM

If you don't go harder than 30:1, you should be find, Gordon.
In Wayne's Hex bore and with a round bullet, there is more obturation of the bullet required. An alloy of 40 Pb:1 Tin might work just fine though, and not increase the diameter of the cast bullet much if at all.
An antimony mix will likely do that, however.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332226 - 12/09/19 07:06 AM

I am going to try casting some bullets tomorrow at 40/1. Today's foray using 2FF with the hex bullets was much improved. It shot 2 5/8" at 100yds. The max charge seems to be 70grs. A slightly harder bullet may help that. You also have to clean this gun every shot or you cant get a Hex slug down the bore and accuracy goes away. Did not get a chance to try the OLD Eniaford.

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Heelerau
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332234 - 12/09/19 08:06 AM

Daryl, will let you know the results. Still waiting for a new cone from Rick W as I had to drill and re tap my bolster due to some nasty gas cutting.

Cheers

Gordon

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Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Heelerau]
      #332235 - 12/09/19 08:25 AM

Sounds as if the lube wad is not enough, Wayne. Too, the powder's flame must have access to the lube, to spread it all through the fouling, just as it does with the ctg. guns.

In this respect, the round bullet might be better, after all.
Having to wipe the bore between shots does not bode well for a hunting rifle.

My Sharps gave me identical accuracy with 1F GOEX as it did with 1 1/2F Swiss powder. The GOEX is slower, of course and I could not get as much(weight)powder into the case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332249 - 12/09/19 09:55 AM

I have a really neat lube cookie I made up for the gun. It has about a 1/16" paraffin layer on the bottom and About a 3/8" lube on top of it. The gun should be swimming in lube. Its just extremely tight. It is suppose to be .451 and this bore measures .448. I am not to worried about hunting with the gun I can always use the regular grease groove bullets for that. Besides they do have the edge in accuracy. I may have to fire lap the bore and open it up about a .0005. The sides on the Hexagon are straight so it should not hurt anything.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332323 - 14/09/19 09:16 AM

Question for those who do a lot of paper patching. Is there any reason you cant use one wrap of paper on a bullet.

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Huvius
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332324 - 14/09/19 10:15 AM

No real reason other than the patch has to have something to cling to, which generally is itself.
So two wraps is the norm.
You could, however, use a cruciform patch (forget what that’s called) which is placed upon the muzzle and folds around the bullet as it enters the barrel.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Huvius]
      #332331 - 14/09/19 11:40 AM

I may have solved my problem. Cigarette paper. Its pretty easily torn so you have to be careful when wrapping the bullet but two wraps and it slides right down the bore with no trouble. I will know as soon as I shoot the 11 bullets I just patched. This is so much fun my next gun may be a Gibbs.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332353 - 15/09/19 02:58 AM

Huvius's idea of the cruciform patch (CROSS of 2 strips) is possibly do-able, however, you would likely need a false muzzle arrangement to properly align them and hold them while they fold into the muzzle.

Single wrap I have used, but it was a single wrap of masking tape. This worked in my bro's Sharps with only .0015" deep rifling. The gun shot jacketed bullets from 300gr. to 500gr. Hornadys beautifully with 100gr. black powder or smokeless but cast bullets were impossible to keep under about 6 to 8" at 100 yards with smokeless or black.

Switching to an undersized bullet, then patching the bullet up to bore size, solved the accuracy problems in Taylor's rifle. In that one, we found masking tape, one wrap was perfect, while in mine(Hoch bl.), a double wrap of .003" bond, was perfect. These under sized loads (bore dia - not groove dia) were only shot with black powder charges, as per Paul Mathews writings.

We both used lube cookies of 60:40 BW:Vaseline with a light smear of the same lube on the outside of the patch.

I could fire 10 shots, one after the other as fast as I could load and shoot, then with one dry patch, push all the accumulated fouling out the bore. No leading, no hard fouling.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332365 - 15/09/19 09:53 AM

I am going to the range tomorrow and will be trying the 40/1 cigarette patched bullets. today I cast some more Hex bullets with 70% ww and 30% led and they came out .007 larger than pure led. They seem to fit perfectly with no patch. I am going to run a lubed patch down the bore so it dose not lead and see what happens. Sure would be nice if I didn't have to paper patch.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332370 - 15/09/19 11:00 AM

Interesting indeed, that the WW/PB mix would cast that much larger.
I found a 50:50 mix of pure lead and WW to work beautifully in my .50 Alaskan with BP loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332376 - 15/09/19 11:35 AM

I was surprised. I expected maybe .003. I did run the lead at 800 deg. and the mold as hot as I could get it. If it bumps up any at all it will be a very snug fit. I am hoping to be able to increase the powder and really boost the velocity and get good accuracy.

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332415 - 16/09/19 11:11 AM

Well today's session at the range did not go as expected. The hardened slugs did not shoot great. about a 3 1/2" at 100 yards. Ran the powder up to 90grs and the groups remained about the same. The lead mixture may be to hard to bump up properly. May try 50/50 but it will have to wait until I have a chance to mix some. I am seriously thinking about a globe front sight and a tang sight for the rear.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: Wayne59]
      #332424 - 17/09/19 02:10 AM

IIRC 30:1 is about the hardest that will bump up with small powder charges, up to 100gr. or so.

Good sights should make an improvement, for sure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
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Re: New Muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #332440 - 17/09/19 08:44 AM

I found an article yesterday were at the long range matches they are using 65/1 so I made some up today. I will try it out in the next couple days.

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