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Paul
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Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #152343 - 31/01/10 06:15 PM

Thanks guys,
I guess the placement of the hammers is obvious now you mention it. The recipricol of that may be the true analogy then: the hammering on the outside in that pattern causes the metal to mould around the spiral on the mandrel within. Not so easy if you make barrels out of potatoes.

The transducer stuff is one of the closest things to a scientific look we've had on this thread. Could the issue be resolved using that?

- Paul


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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Paul]
      #152371 - 31/01/10 11:10 PM

Quote:

Thanks guys,
I guess the placement of the hammers is obvious now you mention it. The recipricol of that may be the true analogy then: the hammering on the outside in that pattern causes the metal to mould around the spiral on the mandrel within. Not so easy if you make barrels out of potatoes.

The transducer stuff is one of the closest things to a scientific look we've had on this thread. Could the issue be resolved using that?

- Paul




Naturally, it has come up in the past also, but if not the bullet producers want to do it, then its up to someone private and then it wouldnt make anny difference.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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404bearslayer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #152372 - 31/01/10 11:30 PM

Paul,

all materials have a certain elasticity. If you don't like the potato example, think of chewing gum. The point is that if you try to press an elevated profile into material of the same consistency, that you cannot drive it through that material without loosing its original shape. It gets displaced in all directions and ends up being crushed outright (for relatively inelastic materials) or 'swallowed' by the material it is pressed into. That makes it impossible to press rifling from the inside of a barrel to the outside, creating a 'rifling shadow' there, as some people tend to believe. These are stretch marks in a barrel that has been exposed to too much pressure.

Your idea about a mouse in a tube is correct, by the way. Barrels are elastic and always bulge / stretch somewhat when a bullet is launched through them. It is of course a dynamic process, but for the sake of illustration, imagine it like this: Take a bullet of relatively hard consistency, that is also, because of sloppy quality control, oversize. That increases its initial resistance to engraving and also its friction coefficient. Normally, if all is well, the bullets expands a bit in diameter by being pushed against it own inertia and still seals the barrel even though the barrel itself is expanding. That is what obturation really means (latin: Obturare = to seal).

By the way, if you have ever wondered why certain bullets shoot well with some rifles, and not with others - it is because there is a mismatch in the bullet's material relative to the rifle's material, disturbing this beneficial process. Happens most often with copper bullets, as rifle manufacturers (especially in older days) have made barrel steel that is meant to harmonize with soft bullets.

But back to the hard, oversized bullet. Imagine it getting stuck briefly - what happens then: As the bullet cannot move, the burning powder experiences a severe pressure spike. If the spike is steep (fast) enough, the barrel bursts before the bullet can be moved sufficiently to relive pressure. If however, the pressure spike is below a certain threshold, the expanding gas causes a bulge behind the bullet, which, because of the shape of a barrel, extends towards the sides of the stuck bullet, 'freeing' it and launching it forward. This may have saved your life as the barrel did not rupture outright, but could have exceeded the elasticity of the barrel, leading to exactly the symptoms that people call OSR. The misconception about OSR is not that a hard bullet is problematic (it is, mono-metal bullets as well as steel-jacketed bullets are more prone to pressure spikes). The misconception is that the bullet causes the damage DIRECTLY, while it is in reality excessive pressure that bulges the barrel beyond its point of elasticity. Even if a bullet were so much harder then the barrel that it could theoretically 'smear' out the rifling, this would never happen as the resistance by the rifling would be so strong that the pressure would go through the roof and blow up the gun.


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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #152374 - 01/02/10 12:08 AM

This would then be a couse of an oversized bullet?
Taking one of the osr rifles and slugging it to compare with the bullets that is blamed would reveil it then, woulnt it?
Or in worst case a standard load on a harder bullet that becomes an severe overload do to the bullet construction, it would also be easy to test.
Either none has tested or there must be more to it, either way its interesting.

In the good old days severe overpressure from cordite would have been quite normal in hotter condition, why isnt there plenty of records from burst/osr barrels.

btw, beeing in germany have you ever seen a barrel on a combo ruined by "hard" bullets?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Paul
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #152375 - 01/02/10 12:18 AM

404, your argument is more technical than I can comment on. I don't know what the answer is but, if the rest of the world goes the way of Sweden and California, we'll need to find monos that are definitely safe in doubles or else mothball the rifles.

- Paul


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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Paul]
      #152377 - 01/02/10 12:23 AM

Quote:

404, your argument is more technical than I can comment on. I don't know what the answer is but, if the rest of the world goes the way of Sweden and California, we'll need to find monos that are definitely safe in doubles or else mothball the rifles.

- Paul




Actually our lead ban is set on a hold for now, but for how long.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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404bearslayer
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #152481 - 02/02/10 12:38 AM

Paul, 450-366,

if it has been too technical so far, maybe it is helpful to concentrate just on one well-known fact: Modern propellant is extremely sensitive to heat and pressure. Cordite, which didn't have today's additives to tamper that effect somewhat, was a prime example of this - African heat was enough to create dangerous pressure spikes, that's why Nitro Express loads were given such low pressure limits, (which aren't necessary anymore with today's powders). That also answers whether problems existed in the past - if rifle makers had reason to lower pressure that drastically, then there must have been a lot of problems in the early days.

Now, nitro-cellulose powder creates the expected level of pressure and energy with an ever-expanding 'boiler room' - during the burning of the powder, the barrel is really the extension of the cartridge case, so while the bullet moves, the volume of the confined compartment (case plus barrel) up to the position of the bullet constantly expands, which lowers pressure dynamically, allowing the powder to burn in a controlled and expected fashion. However, once you increase resistance to the movement of the bullet, be it by an obstruction or a bullet with excessive resistance to engraving, you are making the 'boiler room' smaller then it should be at that point in time (thereby raising pressure beyond the design criteria of the powder).

Here we have the main misunderstanding by people who think that by now the bullet and the inside of the barrel can do something to each other. They erroneously assume pressure at this point to be either static or to to be in a linear relationship with the force of resistance that bullet/rifling can pose. This would be the precondition of bullet and rifling staying in contact with each other, and without contact they cannot damage each other. The relation between the volume of the 'boiler room' and resultant pressure is however not linear but exponential. That means that before an oversize stainless steel bullet could damage the inside of a barrel, its temporary slowing of the 'boiler room' expansion raises pressure. However, if exposed to confinement, modern powder burns even faster, creating further pressure, which in turn makes the powder burn faster yet again. What you have is a cascading, self-feeding process that approaches detonation. This process happens a lot faster then the time a bullet needs to damage a rifle. The barrel either bursts outright before that happens, or the barrel over-stretches, releases the bullet, thereby lowering pressure again by expanding the volume in which the powder works, and then afterwards showing symptoms that people call OSR.

OSR, as most people seem to understand it, namely the bullet itself doing damage, can however only happen when two conditions are met:

a) The bullet is harder or at least approaching the hardness of the barrel.

b) You drive that bullet through the barrel with a dowel, thereby eliminating the stretching of the barrel that the dynamic combustion process causes. Now, bullet and rifling can stay in contact and potentially damage each other (if condition a is also met). But who launches their bullets with a dowel?

Now to the important point: What are the practical implications for the shooter?

If you have a modern rifle with correct barrel dimensions and know how to reload, there is no issue with 'hard' or mono-metal bullets, you have a lot of safety margin even if bullet size or hardness is a bit out of whack. In general, things go only wrong when there are several factors at work. If that was not the case, nobody could shoot Barnes bullets without screwing up.

On the other hand, if you are a novice to reloading, have an old gun with thin barrels and have not even slugged that barrel to see whether it has the correct internal dimensions (old .404 barrels can be significantly tighter then newer one, for example), then don't add another risk factor - harder bullets DO make the pressure curve steeper (unless undersize, but then, your barrel might be undersize as well). The same goes for people who do not properly clean their barrels, leave oil in the chamber, never remove carbon deposits around the chamber shoulder or the carbon ring in the barrel, and so on. Something relevant as well: If you shoot bronze slugs, steel jackets and normal bullets on top of each other you can weld yourself a new alloy inside your barrel which can significantly increase friction and thereby pressure.

So the conclusion is quite simple: You have a valuable vintage double? No need to understand OSR, stick to Woodleighs and traditional loads and never look back. I myself, on the other hand, own a modern Holland & Holland .470 double, and shoot mono-metal bullets and loads that approach that of a .500 NE. - and I have zero problems. I do however know how to control and adjust a pressure curve, use mathematical modeling for it and cross-check with a pressure gauge that, amongst other things, displays my pressure curve graphically at any point in time during the launch of my bullet. That way I catch even secondary or tertiary spikes as a result of inefficient and potentially dangerous powder/case/bullet mismatches and can readjust. In other words, I do my homework, and can therefore enter somewhat more 'risky' territory.

As a final word: What damages rifles is in many cases not peak pressure as such, but how fast you get there (the steepness of the curve). Therefore, even a load with a 'normal' peak pressure can be damaging under certain circumstances. Mono-metal / hard bullets simply contribute to a steep rise in pressure more then traditional bullets. If other things go wrong, they can be the tipping point, that is all you need to know.


... Forgot one thing: The reason why the described damages tend to show up in the forward section of double rifle barrels - it is the result of an intended design 'flaw'. The principle behind a chopper lump barrel is to be without seams, and to be strong at the breech, and progressively weaker towards the muzzle. Recall the early days of cordite with its pressure spikes. Manufacturers could not control WHETHER a gun would blow up, but HOW. They chose to make the barrel comparably weak towards the muzzle, so the barrel would stretch / burst as far away from the shooter as possible. The drawback i, that you get damage in these barrels (towards the tip) much easier then with other types. But better the gun gets damaged then your face. Besides, I would never shoot an old gun period as I don't know what the previous owners did to them. - I have been asked whether I have seen damages in guns that look like what people call OSR. Yes, as I spend much time with my gunsmith. All damaged rifles that he gets, bolt, doubles, drilling, have one thing in common. They are usually over 30 years old.

Edited by 404bearslayer (02/02/10 03:00 AM)


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calpappas
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #153884 - 16/02/10 01:43 PM

Gents:
If someone can l email me and let me know how to post photos on this site, I will be pleased to show you detailed photos of my Barnes Banded Solids I shot through my .600 Wilkes. The rifling cut the bands but did not contact the body of the bullet. I think this is the answer to OSR--bands and a bullet .002 undersize. I saw a mild case of OSR at SCI Reno and seeing made a believer out of me.
Cheers, all.
Cal

Edited by calpappas (16/02/10 01:45 PM)


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500grains
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: calpappas]
      #153909 - 17/02/10 01:51 AM

Quote:

Gents:
The rifling cut the bands but did not contact the body of the bullet. I think this is the answer to OSR--bands and a bullet .002 undersize.




Yes, IF IF IF the bands are thin enough. Otherwise the banded part causes the same problem as a non-banded bullet. Barnes was about 10 years late on this bandwagon, and still has the bands too thick.

THIN BANDS:



THICK BANDS:



Edited by CptCurl (17/02/10 10:56 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500grains]
      #153921 - 17/02/10 03:42 AM

Or do they? Have any guns, previously with no OSR developed OSR from shooting Barnes TSX or their banded solids?

Is this opinion on band thickness based on fact, or suposition due to 'sounding' logical? Just because someone happens to make a bullet with very thin bands, does not mean thicker bands are bad or that they cause OSR.

As to band width, I suspect total area of the bands 'could' be important in the equation, as well as the material's composition itself, along of course, with size of the bnads and grooves between. Taking from one area of importance and adding to another 'could' have the same outcome.

Seems to me I saw a picture of those thin banded bullets, showed heavy engraving all the way around, lands and grooves digging deeply into the solid shank. That only means the barrel it was fired in, was perhaps on the tight side, only, and was only one barrel - could have been too tight for that bullet. Maybe! Considering barrels that have shot nothing buy Woodleighs show OSR - 5 out of 5 discussed. 2 of them had also fired monos? Whose mono's? Did the monos contribute or was the OSR caused by the Woodleighs as in the other 3 - coincidence that all 5 barrels shot with the Woodleigh solids had OSR or that both (2) barerls shot with monos had OSR.
This does not sound as if the woodleighs are particularly 'safe' to me - every barrel shot with them had OSR.

Yes I know you have several DR's and all you've shot is woodleighs and they don't have OSR - but those 5 did. What does this mean- maybe nothing - maybe those 5 guns were 'faulty' or undersized in the bores? We'll never know.

We do know that fingers cannot be pointed at the mono bullets in this example.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #153934 - 17/02/10 05:45 AM

I'll throw in my 2 cents.....

I agree with Daryl and 500gn both. I think thin bands are probably better than thick ones.

I think the shank between the bands needs to be sufficently smaller than bore diameter in order to give the displaced metal somewhere to go. How much smaller is determined by the spacing between the bands, but there should be a positive space to deposit the displaced metal.

I think the face of the lands in the throat should be perpendicular to the bore so as to cut the band via shearing, rather than a sloping/tapered throat that presses the land into the bullet, radically increasing radial stress and doing a poor job of moving band material into the grooves between them. Fortunately most barrels are this way when NEW, but I wonder if throat errosion over the decades give the lands a more tapered profile in this area, thereby increasing radial stress. Even when new with a non-grooved bullet the bearin surface may be too long to move the sheared material all of the way to the bullet base. It has to go somewhere, and squeezing lands into all sides of a solid bullet takes a huge amount of force.

Chamber pressure is important only to the extent that if it is below the level required for the monolithic bullet to obturate, it may allow the shank of a non-undersized bullet to remain larger than if the pressure were higher, resulting in damage farther down the barrel where it is thinner even though pressure is far, far below max there. Perhaps extremely detailed testing could answer this by detailed measuring of bullets fired at varying pressure levels.

Lastly, I think barrel construction plays a role. I personally think cut rifling is the only way to go on a DR or custom/non-production gun. Having said that, the act of buttoning could strengthen the barrel steel to resist the stress of monolithics. If it is enough to prevent OSR is an open question, but the act of forcing a hardened button down a barrel with the purpose of inducing stresses beyond the metal's elastic limit should impart some resistance to similar stresses in the future. Even if so I'd still alway opt of chopper lump cut rifling if given the choice.

All of this is simply theory and conjecture on my part and could be wrong across the board. It isn't unknowable, but would take a LOT of testing to determine.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

Edited by Omnivorous_Bob (17/02/10 05:51 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #154072 - 18/02/10 03:14 AM

Normal throat angles are 1 1/2 to 3 today. I don't know what they were 100 years ago - but, corrosive primers, throat errosion from exceptionally hot gasses but to blowby in the throat prior to obturation of a leadcored bullet are what cause throat wear. Soft steels and Damascus steel/iron barrels are also worn noticably by hard bullets, ie: the nickel jackets of years gone buy. This all results in longer throat angles as the rifling origin, the throat is moved down the tube/s, the angle becomming shallower and shallower.
As Bob noted, this also could be a contributor to bore damage.
We haven't addressed rough bores sloughing off soft bullet metal, which builds upon itself making the bore even smaller - many times in a few areas only, at the breech and again at the muzzle where the barrel metal is thinnest.

I'd wager there are a number of shooters who still don't know how to get the copper out, but use something useless for the job, like Hoppe's or Kerosene, then ragoon oil and call it done. The fouling merely builds upon itself every time the gun is fired, the bore becomming tighter and 'stickier' over time.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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iomskp
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #154108 - 18/02/10 09:49 AM

Hello I have done a quick scan of the OSR thread and one thing I have not found is what is OSR it may well be there and I have missed it, could somebody could tell me please.

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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: iomskp]
      #154109 - 18/02/10 09:52 AM

Quote:

Hello I have done a quick scan of the OSR thread and one thing I have not found is what is OSR it may well be there and I have missed it, could somebody could tell me please.






Over Stressed rifling - the rifling appears on the outside of the barrel but is hard to see.


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iomskp
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500Nitro]
      #154118 - 18/02/10 11:28 AM

Thankyou

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500grains
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #154176 - 19/02/10 03:25 AM

Quote:


I think the shank between the bands needs to be sufficently smaller than bore diameter in order to give the displaced metal somewhere to go.





This goes without saying because otherwise the bands serve little purpose. Also, a bullet whose shank does not contact the rifling in one gun may in another.


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500Nitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500grains]
      #154177 - 19/02/10 03:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I think the shank between the bands needs to be sufficently smaller than bore diameter in order to give the displaced metal somewhere to go.





This goes without saying because otherwise the bands serve little purpose. Also, a bullet whose shank does not contact the rifling in one gun may in another.





"Also, a bullet whose shank does not contact the rifling in one gun may in another."

CORRECT - And that is the problem.

Apart from my 470's and 500's, I can't think of one of my doubles that is spot on with dimensions.


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 500grains]
      #154247 - 20/02/10 03:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:


I think the shank between the bands needs to be sufficently smaller than bore diameter in order to give the displaced metal somewhere to go.





This goes without saying because otherwise the bands serve little purpose. Also, a bullet whose shank does not contact the rifling in one gun may in another.




I agree, but think the shank should be quite a bit smaller. In a 30 cal for example, if the band is .004" high (.308" groove and .300" bore nominal barrel), the groove between equal width bands should be at least .004" deep, that is .296" or less, not just .300", in order to give the metal a place to go. This would also help with barrels that don't conform to todays cip specs.

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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Ruger_450
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #245600 - 13/04/14 04:57 AM

I DNS about Double rifles, but I do seem to call reading that the famed solids of the past had copper plated steel jackets and no grooves at all. One would assume they were quite hard.

I DNAL about Barnes bullets because they are my favorite big game bullet. I also know Ty pretty well and he is a very nice guy. While they may or may not own Africa, I have read that many PHs now treat the 300 gr 375 TSX as the best 375 H&H Buff bullet as it expands and penetrates. I have seen American Bison with both shoulders broken and dropped on the spot with a 130 gr .277 TSX.

From all these posts, what I see is a lot of opinions with no "scientific method" data or photos to support either side.

I do know I can push an 80 gr TTSX out of my 30" high wall (thin barrel) @4000 fps, into sub moa groups and take a mature Antelope Buck end to end with the bullet still flying. "bang, flop".

JMHO, but every gun site I have ever been on has those who laud or hate Barnes bullets. With the advent of all the new mono metals they have to spread themselves around a bit.

Until there are some verifiable facts, I'm going to treat this like the "explosive ignition" stories about reduced loads of 4831.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #331465 - 20/08/19 06:45 PM


BTTT. Remembering Mark - 400NitroExpress 's last post.

I wonder if he was upset in some way, that that was his last?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ash
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: NitroX]
      #331466 - 20/08/19 09:03 PM

To anyone reading this thread. To summarise: shoot Woodleighs and all will be well

--------------------
.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: NitroX]
      #333103 - 07/10/19 08:32 AM

Quote:


BTTT. Remembering Mark - 400NitroExpress 's last post.

I wonder if he was upset in some way, that that was his last?




400Nitroexpress (Mark Cash)has passed away but he quite posting all over the net for some time. He was a good friend of mine, and a charter member of DRSS, and was a very knowledgeable man who had forgotten more than most know about double rifles, and what will damage them!

……………………………………………………………………………….Dugaboy1 ( Mac)
)

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #333104 - 07/10/19 09:27 AM

I'll touch a couple off to honor Mark.
He was always pleasant and generous with his knowledge every time I spoke with him.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Ash]
      #333123 - 07/10/19 07:27 PM

Quote:

To anyone reading this thread. To summarise: shoot Woodleighs and all will be well




But use the extra 'stiff' FMJs sparingly ... use any FMJs sparingly, not a target bullet. And some FMJs were thickened and as is recommended, use sparingly.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #333124 - 07/10/19 07:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:


BTTT. Remembering Mark - 400NitroExpress 's last post.

I wonder if he was upset in some way, that that was his last?




400Nitroexpress (Mark Cash)has passed away but he quite posting all over the net for some time. He was a good friend of mine, and a charter member of DRSS, and was a very knowledgeable man who had forgotten more than most know about double rifles, and what will damage them!

……………………………………………………………………………….Dugaboy1 ( Mac)
)




Thanks Mac. I think I posted about Mark's passing away on another thread. When looking for his posts, his last on this thread so mentioned it here.

Another good member shooting doubles on the Elysium Fields.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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