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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Howdah Purdey Style
      #331331 - 18/08/19 08:01 AM

My bro sent me these pictures a few days ago when we were talking Howdah Pistols.
For your viewing pleasure







--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: DarylS]
      #331351 - 18/08/19 06:37 PM

Wow.......Stunning

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: paradox_]
      #331372 - 19/08/19 02:50 AM

The locks are beautiful.
I'd like to see more of them.


Here is a detailed piece on this pistol
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/antique_guns/purdey_howdah/howdah.html

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: tinker]
      #331389 - 19/08/19 10:44 AM

I like it!!!!

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: bouldersmith]
      #331400 - 19/08/19 06:00 PM

Very nice.

I think the Howdah pistol of fame began strongly in the days of muzzle loading long arms. So slow to reload a short double barrelled handgun was kept as a last ditch defence against a wounded tiger or leopard.

With the introduction of breech loading long arms, quicker to reload, the Howdah handgun fell into decline. Or people continued to use muzzle loaders for a time anyway. No great need to reload one if used for its purpose. Either works or is too late. Perhaps the reason we see far fewer breechloading howday pistols.

I would love one, a muzzle loader and even more so, a breech loading brass cartridge model.

Other than Pedersoli is anyone making a howdah pistol today? I wonder if one of the great double rifle makers could or would still make one today as a special order for a customer? Any recent examples of this, does anyone know?

Finally, anyone know what accuracy can be expected? As extreme close range weapons, were they even regulated at all? Maybe one of our Alaskan members could comment. I know there have been one to maybe three brought to the Alaskan big bore shoots held each year.

The BGRC talked about having a Howdah competition. Never heard of one being held, but maybe someone else could comment? What would such a competition entail? I would think a largish steel gong at a short range might be suitable, with a short time period to take a shot? But blowback from the target might be an issue? An alternative better idea would be an extremely quick pop up or flip up tiger target at close range. And a shot required in a very short period of time. Similar to facing a tiger on the head of one's elephant.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
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Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: NitroX]
      #331428 - 20/08/19 02:55 AM

Our closest steel targets on our in-town trail walk are of course, the handgun targets.

We've not had any bounce-backs from them. They all hang at a slight angle, which deflects all the balls to the side and down.

Our out-of-town range on the Black Water road.
The two posts beside my bench, are 12" x 12" rough cut Douglas Fir. We build this shooting shed 3 years ago. It's
96' long, with 92' of concrete for the floor. I'm the little guy second from the right - 2 1/2 weeks after getting my new titanium knee- left leg bit sore there.


Even the steel gongs on our long-distance range (longest gongs are 1,100meters} are hanging at a slight angle. This deflects bullet fragments down and to the sides.

The 600gr. bullets from my bro's .50/90 Sharps (custom bl.) lay on the ground, under the 1,000 meter buffalo. They become perfectly round disks of lead about 1 1/2" in diameter, with the base in the exact middle of the disk. This shows the bullets are coming down perfectly square with the ground(universe) not at an angle, pointing down. The buffalo is the only one of our plates that hangs perfectly flat to the shooter.
We were out playing yesterday. A dull day with comfortable temperature about 65F.
Taylor's 3-handgun handgun targets at 18 meters on the plywood board for testing his 1875 Remington revolver with BP.

1st picture: The first bunch of targets with a berm behind, are at 50 meters, then large set of targets at 100 meters.



In this 'closeup' picture, the target butt beside the flag pole, is 500meters.
The red target with the white dot, is 600meters and is a 4' octagonal sheet of AR500.
Right above the 600 meter target is a white sheet of plywood, 700meters.
Behind that to the left is 900 meters, then the orange buff at 1000 meters.
Above the buffalo, the road (cleared area) runs up to 1,400meters. We have no targets there yet, but I might have enough staff on my Sharp's (1st pic) Soule sight to get to it, when we do - maybe not.
With smokeless, I have lots of sight as I run 500gr. at 1,650fps using Benchmark powder.





The sight setting when I took the picture is 500 meters, for the black powder load I am using with a 525gr. Lyman bullet.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
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Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: DarylS]
      #331462 - 20/08/19 06:26 PM

As this Howdah is a smoothbore, couldn't any suitable shotgun be made into a similar "Howdah" pistol? The old "sawnoff" given some class? Assuming it can be done legally.

I wonder how 12 gauge slubs or brenneckes would perform in such a short barrel? And would the recoil be usuable? A 16 gauge or a 20 gauge?

It used to be possible to buy old 12 gauge shotguns in the shorter chambering cheaply - 2 5/8" (?), from $200 to $400. Because most people wanted the usual chamber length of 2 3/4". I haven't seen many of these cheaper vintage shotguns for some time though, so perhaps have 'dried up'. One with hammers might make a suitable donor gun to be chopped up.

I actually have two hammer shotguns with the shorter length already. Both "grandfather" shotguns. One is a Hollis with "twist weld" barrels and rusted and not up to ti. The other is a Stevens, also with a hammer, the other hammer is broken and missing. My Uncle still has not found it, or did and misplaced it again! A new one needs to be made. However I won't be chopping up either of these.

An Italian brand of 12 gauge ammo is 2 5/8" and I bought a carton or two of these for use in them. Still have some left. Hopefully still available.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (20/08/19 06:33 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: NitroX]
      #331463 - 20/08/19 06:37 PM

Most important question. Anyone have any idea of legality?

!. For a real vintage Howdah? Do these class as antiques? Given they aren't meant to be shot if an "antique"?

2. Greater than .357 or 9mm - what sort of difficulties does this entail?

3. If a shotgun was cut back into one - would this be permissible per our authorities, ie turning a shotgun into a handgun/howdah? Somehow I think the authorities might not be able to get their minds around the concept of a sawn off shotgun ... ?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: NitroX]
      #331483 - 21/08/19 07:22 AM

A UK dealer once tried to sell me a "Howdah" pistol that was clearly a DB 16 bore pinfire shotgun (to comply with UK "obsolete calibre" regs) cut down for top price
The main giveaway was the stock angle where the butt had been cut away to the shotgun pistol grip
DB .410 pistols were once quite common here but now completely banned
TH44

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ironoxide
.224 member


Reged: 14/08/19
Posts: 28
Loc: Poland
Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: NitroX]
      #331559 - 22/08/19 07:34 PM

Quote:


Finally, anyone know what accuracy can be expected? As extreme close range weapons, were they even regulated at all? Maybe one of our Alaskan members could comment. I know there have been one to maybe three brought to the Alaskan big bore shoots held each year.




I have a Pedersoli muzzleloading Howdah in .58 cal. It is pretty accurate once you install proper front sight. For some (probably legal) reasons Pedersoli suggests using 35 grains in this pistol. The barrels are pretty much the same as barrels for the Kodiak .58 cal. I know as I have both and the Kodiak is rated up to 110 grains (100 with a conical). My favourite loads for the Pedersoli howdah is 50 or 60 grains and a 270 grain lead ball. A conical REAL shoots well too, but there is a bit too much recoil. However if I was using this a backup for a charging buffalo or tiger I would put hardened lead REALs and 120 grains of powder in each bore. The recoil would be the least of my worries.

With 35 grains and a 270 grain round ball one gets 480-500 fps - not much, and ridiculously steep trajectory for which the factory sight is designed. When I load 50-60 grains I'm getting 1200fps.

Anyway, coming back to accuracy, once I raised the bead front sight by about 3 mm (120 thou) and I shoot right barrel then left at a 25m target I have two holes in the 10 points ring almost touching. At 50m I can hit a paper plate with every shot and the trajectory is almost flat.I could do much better if the front sight wasn't a shotgun style bead that is pretty imprecise at 50m. I'm waiting for a ghost tang sight to come from Italy (it takes months to order anything directly from the factory) and I'll be replacing the bead with a thin post and smaller bead. Then I'll be testing it at 100m. I expect the accuracy to be in the region of "minute of deer" at the distance.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: ironoxide]
      #331561 - 22/08/19 08:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Finally, anyone know what accuracy can be expected? As extreme close range weapons, were they even regulated at all? Maybe one of our Alaskan members could comment. I know there have been one to maybe three brought to the Alaskan big bore shoots held each year.




I have a Pedersoli muzzleloading Howdah in .58 cal. It is pretty accurate once you install proper front sight. For some (probably legal) reasons Pedersoli suggests using 35 grains in this pistol. The barrels are pretty much the same as barrels for the Kodiak .58 cal. I know as I have both and the Kodiak is rated up to 110 grains (100 with a conical). My favourite loads for the Pedersoli howdah is 50 or 60 grains and a 270 grain lead ball. A conical REAL shoots well too, but there is a bit too much recoil. However if I was using this a backup for a charging buffalo or tiger I would put hardened lead REALs and 120 grains of powder in each bore. The recoil would be the least of my worries.

With 35 grains and a 270 grain round ball one gets 480-500 fps - not much, and ridiculously steep trajectory for which the factory sight is designed. When I load 50-60 grains I'm getting 1200fps.

Anyway, coming back to accuracy, once I raised the bead front sight by about 3 mm (120 thou) and I shoot right barrel then left at a 25m target I have two holes in the 10 points ring almost touching. At 50m I can hit a paper plate with every shot and the trajectory is almost flat.I could do much better if the front sight wasn't a shotgun style bead that is pretty imprecise at 50m. I'm waiting for a ghost tang sight to come from Italy (it takes months to order anything directly from the factory) and I'll be replacing the bead with a thin post and smaller bead. Then I'll be testing it at 100m. I expect the accuracy to be in the region of "minute of deer" at the distance.



Is the howdah accuracy or the rifle? If the rifle how does the howdah shoot?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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ironoxide
.224 member


Reged: 14/08/19
Posts: 28
Loc: Poland
Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: NitroX]
      #331636 - 25/08/19 01:00 AM

Quote:



Is the howdah accuracy or the rifle? If the rifle how does the howdah shoot?



The Howdah of course :-)

The rifle is more accurate.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39896
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Howdah Purdey Style [Re: ironoxide]
      #331652 - 25/08/19 07:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Is the howdah accuracy or the rifle? If the rifle how does the howdah shoot?



The Howdah of course :-)

The rifle is more accurate.



Thanks, that accuracy is pretty good, and above what I expected. Good regulation too, but is it a good result by chance? If so lucky. If not, not bad for a handgun howdah. Certainly minute of tiger's head accuracy at touching distance!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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