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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Bighammer
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Loc: Sydney, Australia
Next one up from a .375 H&H
      #33123 - 15/06/05 05:06 PM

All assistance and advice is greatly appreciated here.

I've been considering getting a true big bore rifle and seem to feel that if I was getting something bigger than a .375, it'd have to be a .45 or bigger. I feel that a .416 wouldn't offer considerably more. Yes, 100 grains more bullet but only half as much again as a 500gr .45 calibre! Go the whole hog I say!

A Ruger Magnum in .375 H&H is my pride and joy at the moment and feel that the same rifle chambered for the .458 Lott would make a great pair. Am I going over the top here?! I really don't see a need for anything bigger than a .375 but that's not why I'm talking to you good people! I just want one!! Is the .458 Lott too big in a bolt action rifle? I'd like to keep my shoulder intact and be free of headaches too!!


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500Nitro
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33128 - 15/06/05 05:59 PM


Welcome

Am I going over the top here?! NO

I really don't see a need for anything bigger than a .375 but that's not
why I'm talking to you good people! I just want one!!

IF NEED was the basis we make buying decisions on, none of us
would own any of the Big Bores

Welcome to the club !!!

458 Lott is fine. Their is a difference between 404/416 and 458.

You'd go 404 / 416 for Nostalgia reasons but 458 Lott is far better than
458 Win Mag.

Good luck.

500 Nitro


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clark7781
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33140 - 15/06/05 11:53 PM

If the .375 H&H is already in your battery and you're adding one bigger, if it were a bolt gun, I would second the .458 Lott.

If it were a double, I would go all the way up to .500 NE 3".

If the Lott is too big for you, I would not go with the .458 Win Mag. The .416 Rigby would be my choice.


--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE


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davem3
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33142 - 16/06/05 12:11 AM

You can always load the .458 Lott down, hard to load a smaller caliber up. Dave

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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33159 - 16/06/05 05:29 AM

If a .458 Lott is initially too nasty to shoot you can always load it down and slowly work your way up, stopping at whatever level you find comfortable or tolerable.

Several zoos, parks, and wildlife agencies issue .458's to their employees and for some of those employees it may be the first rifle they have ever used...and when the nature boys are filming the highly deceptive programs for television to show how harmless wild animals are, there is usually someone with a loaded .458 on the set out of the field of view of the cameras.

The .458 Lott is probably the practical choice but I'd go for the .416 myself, merely because I've never had a .416.

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 500Nitro]
      #33285 - 17/06/05 04:00 PM

500Nitro, (I like the name!)

I did consider the .404J purely for the nostalgic reason but it really doesn't even offer as much as the .416 Rigby or Rem. The .450 Rigby Rimless would be fantastic but I'm not able to afford to be quite that nostalgic as yet!!

THe .458 Lott seems to be the logical one.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: rgp]
      #33286 - 17/06/05 04:04 PM

rgp,

I've never owned a .416 either but I have shot a .416 Rem and it wasn't at all unmanageable. If I were thinking of a .416, the Rigby would be the one.


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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33336 - 18/06/05 04:18 PM

bighammer,

Me too, because the .416 Rigby is "the" .416 and may be the only .416 that is older than I am...the other .416's are "new"...as are most of the .458's. For some reason I find cartridges younger than I am to be rather creepy and unnatural.

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: rgp]
      #33456 - 20/06/05 04:30 PM

I'm a bit of a traditionalist too. However, as time marches on, there are going to be more and more cartridges that are younger than us! Being a subscriber to the view that there is no substitute for cubic inches, I like big cases and I like performance that is achieved easily without rivet-popping pressures. The "older" cartridges do that comfortably and with modern powders and projectiles, given their capacity, they only get better with time.

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475Guy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33489 - 21/06/05 04:56 AM

Since I own al of these calibers, I'd suggest the 416 in any flavor, Rem. or Rigby. Shoot the hell out of it, reload and find out how much more you can do with it. If after you whack something with your biggest baddest loads and you're not satisfied, then get a 458 Lott. The 416 I have is the Rigby in a Ruger RSM, I've found that if I load it with 450 gr bullets @ 2250 f/s, I really don't need any bigger caliber. But then again, the Rigby has the powder capacity to bump things up a bit. The only thing holding anybody back is how much punishment you can take when developing big loads. Of course, what's need got to do with anything, anyways?





--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (21/06/05 05:18 AM)


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Pottsy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33491 - 21/06/05 06:27 AM

In reply to:

All assistance and advice is greatly appreciated here.

I've been considering getting a true big bore rifle and seem to feel that if I was getting something bigger than a .375, it'd have to be a .45 or bigger. I feel that a .416 wouldn't offer considerably more. Yes, 100 grains more bullet but only half as much again as a 500gr .45 calibre! Go the whole hog I say!

A Ruger Magnum in .375 H&H is my pride and joy at the moment and feel that the same rifle chambered for the .458 Lott would make a great pair. Am I going over the top here?! I really don't see a need for anything bigger than a .375 but that's not why I'm talking to you good people! I just want one!! Is the .458 Lott too big in a bolt action rifle? I'd like to keep my shoulder intact and be free of headaches too!!




Naa .458 is still to small . You already have a fine rifle in that .375 H&H It's a fine all around mid size bore rifle .
Have you thought about ? maybe trying somthing diffrent in a bullet design rather then go a larger bullet diameter ?

If you really feel the need to go a larger diameter for
big game dont play around go right to .700 Diameter
I will be happy to make the 850 or 900 or 1000 or even the 1200 Grain bullet's for it for you .
Now will that be jacketed or soild's .

Just buy a .458 Lott and be done with it ? Or you might think about the two new rounds the 400 H&H or the 465 H&H

Now that i think about it ? you might ? try this ? every great once in a while a preson can find a used 375 Weatherby
or 460 Weatherby for sale or even one of those 30-378 Weatherbys.

But hay just buy the 458 lott. I went out and picked up a ruger 458 win mag used not all that long ago for 700.00

I dont shoot it much my Marlin GS 45/70 is more fun .
as well as my BLR 50-110

Hard choise's are the most fun



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Owner PA Bullet's


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33493 - 21/06/05 06:45 AM

Bighammer

458 Lott and the reason being bullets, the 350 and 400 grain 45/70 bullets.

Have a look at a Hornady, Sierra and Speer manual and you will see 416 bullets are very thin on the ground.

Woodleigh also make a 405 grain flat nose.

The 400 grainers loaded back to around 2000-2100 with powders like 2206 is in the general recoil area of the 375 and smaller animals go down like they are electrocuted. I use to use the 400 grain Speer loaded to those speeds in the 458.

Also if you want to cast bullets (or have someone else do it for you) bullet moulds for rifle calibres abound in 30 calibre and you guess it....45 calibre.

One point on the 416 Rigby, the big cartridge does have a certain feel about it that just does not come with the H&H size cases.

Mike



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Pottsy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33498 - 21/06/05 11:37 AM

Ahh Mike not all H&H






Boooommmm

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33500 - 21/06/05 01:08 PM

Bighammer

If it was me I would go for the .450 Rigby. Sounds traditional but is a new cartridge. Get a barrel made up for it in your chosen Ruger (if it fits the action - I haven't checked).

A .458 Lott would be more sensible though. Practically a factory round, powerful enough for anything.

Both use .458 calibre bullets so you have lots of choice.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 475Guy]
      #33513 - 21/06/05 03:41 PM

Regarding need for a big bore able to stomp a Tyrannosaurus into the dirt...

Technically there is plenty of need for heavy rifles, in virtually every country on earth. I've been on the receiving end of affection from a few very upset cattle and they can easily kill you as fast as any upset Cape Buffalo. Probably faster, since they were bred for meat production and when properly raised are more heavily muscled than any wild animal.

Given my personal experiences working with large animals since I started helping my grandfather feed the cows at about the age of six, I think heavy rifles should be mandatory equipment for anyone in the cattle business. Most large animal vets are armed with a .308 or a .30/06 but that is because veterinary supply houses sell tranquilizer cartridges in those calibres. Not certain if those rounds work in a standard rifle though and from what I've seen they take a discouragingly long time to have any effect.

Granted my opinion is probably highly inflammatory to a lot of farmers, ranchers, station owners, and hunters, but I've been uncomfortably close to getting killed on a couple of occasions and only managed to avoid it via a miracle. Those upset "domestic" animals did not calm down very quickly either. Almost everyone I've ever known who has worked with large animals for years has had a few similar experiences.

Most who read this are probably hunting regularly on properties with cattle present. Those large domestics are not always friendly and that should be kept in mind when deciding to pack a rifle designed for the specific wild animal you intend to hunt.

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 475Guy]
      #33514 - 21/06/05 03:46 PM

I haven't found the .375 H&H wanting for anything as yet so I doubt that a .416 of any description will fall short either. In .416 though, the Rigby is the only one for me.

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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33515 - 21/06/05 03:51 PM

Pottsy,

If I were considering a double rifle, my only preferences would be either a .470, 500-465 or .500 NE. That's it!

In a bolt action however, a .458 Lott or .416 Rigby seem to be the logical and best choices.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33517 - 21/06/05 03:59 PM

Mike378,

I like your logic. A .458 would be more versatile with lighter and more sensible loads for the bulk of the shooting. I was heading in that direction till I read your last sentence! That buggered it up for me again!! I do love the Rigby name and the 'feel' and capacity of those cases. So now what?!

Maybe a .416 Rigby and a double...closely followed by a divorce!!


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33518 - 21/06/05 04:03 PM

Pottsy,

I am about to purchase a Sharps in 45-70. (I can see the smile on your face already!!) If I get into some heavy experimenting with bullets and loads, you're in business!

Might as well start giving me some ideas!


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33524 - 21/06/05 04:58 PM

Bighammer

The answer is NitroX's suggestion of the 450 Rigby.

But it will be more trouble.

However it would also be my own choice over the 458 Lott.

I have nver owned a 450 Rigby or Lott but I have owned two 460 Wbys and a good shooting mate had a 450 Ackley. As you probably know the 460 Wby and 450 Rigby are the same except the Wby has a belt. But there is a more important difference that favours the 450 Rigby and that is the 460 Wby has huge freebore which makes reduced loadings more difficult to work with.

The 460 and 450 do 458 Lott max ballistics like a walk in the park. They use a far greater variety of powders and just much better to play about with.

At the low end I use to use 28 grains of Dupont Hi Score 700X with 400 grain Speers in the 460 for just over 1300 f/s and accuracy was superb in both 460s. 85 grains of 4064 did just over 2000 f/s with 500 Hornadies with top accuracy (and no fillers in either load) and that 85 grain load was 20 grains below maximum with 4064 in the 460.

A 450 Rigby will give you full 458 Lott ballistics with every powder from 2207 through to 2213 and 2217.

Due to the lack of huge freebore where the 450 Rigby will be better than the 460 is for load that are at the higher 45/70 range. With a 460 you can come down a bit under 458 Win ballistics with beautiful results but once you go under that you get hangfires, unless fillers are used. So wth the 460 the next stage down is with shotgun powders and 1300 f's speeds with 400 grainers. But I don't think the 450 Rigby will be like this becuase of the lack of huge freebore, which causes ignition problems in the 460.

If we couldget the American Accurate Arms powder 5744 (I think that is the number) then the 460 would be OK at the higher 45/70 levels. That powder is made like a shotgun powder in that it is bulky and easy to ignite but had a burn rate about like 4227 or 2205.

Brass for the 450 Rigby is a bit inconvenient as it is a 416 Rigby necked up and improved. Probably the best bet would be to neck to 50 calibre and then run through the 450 sizing die which would form a little shoulder on the bottom of the neck. If 416s are necked straight up to 450 I don't know if the headspace will be OK or not as I have a feeling the body of the 450 Rigby is slightly longer.

But you won't need many cases sine 99.99999999999999999% of you loads will be at very low pressure.

To do a 450 Rigby in Australia I think I would start with a 416 Rigby in the Ruger. However, I would talk to someone like Bob De Vries about rechambering a 458 Ruger given the integral quarter rib etc. and his feelings on getting feeding right from 458 Win to 450 Rigby.

In a nutshell, the journey to 458 Lott is a lot easier and practical than the 450 Rigby.....but once there the 450 Rigby will be much better to have and play with.

Mike





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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33526 - 21/06/05 05:21 PM

Mike378,

Those were my feelings about the .450 Rigby. Here in Australia, most of the goodies are hard to get, if at all, and always with much running around. If .450 Rigby cases were readily available, there's no choice. Frankly, the .460 Weatherby never entered my mind.

The Lott, with its capacity, would do nicely for reduced loads. Really, does anyone put up with the recoil of regularly shot full-house Lott loads let alone stronger loads? Then again, full-house .416 Rigby loads aren't used regularly either.

I'm in Melbourne later this week and I just might talk to Bob about the possibility of a rechambering job.


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Pottsy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33533 - 21/06/05 06:44 PM

you might want to think about a Bore Rider/Duo Diameter bullet's it lets you load super heavy weighted bullet's into
your rifle the front 1/4 of the bullet's riders on/in the bore .

this way you can load up 650 grain and 750 grain bullet's in a plain old 45/70.

And if you add to the a hollow cavitied bullet in the duo diameter it will also alow for a mushrooming effect at slower speeds in a super heavy weight bullet.

Just a thought

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Pottsy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33534 - 21/06/05 06:47 PM

Just one more note if i may ..

if you do go duo Diameter then you can go a step boattailed
rebaited bullet in a duo diameter.
that should help with shooting over distances but not much becouse of the speed drop using a super heavy weight

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33535 - 21/06/05 07:16 PM

Bighammer

As to 450 Rigby cases making them from 416 will be easy.

Becuase the 416 Rigby has a very sharp shoulder you will probably need to go over s 45 expander plug first because to go to 50 in one go will probably mean mean the shoulder will collapse. By the way I am assuming the body of the 450 Rigby is longer which may not be the case. If it is like comparing a 270 to a 30/06 Ackley Improved then you will just neck to 450 and go shooting.

You would not need to worry about fireforming loads as 99.99% of your loads will fit the un improved case.

To cut a long story short the main issue is whether you would rebarrel a 416 Rigby or rechamber a 458 Ruger.

Bertram lists 450 Rigby which you can be fairly sure will be pure shit but you could by 20 just to have 20 450 Rigby headstamped case while you you do some day dreaming and cork sniffing

To get the full benefit of a 450 you want a get a muzzle brake, which can be removed. A 460 with full loads and the KDF type brake is more controllable than a 375 without a brake. For most of our shooting it is easy to put on muffs or plugs in the field.

If the 450 Rigby will equal the 460 then in a 26 inch barrel you can punch the 400 grain Woodleighs out out 2900 and the 350 Hornadies will crack 3000 f/s. Although the case capacities are the same I am mot 100% sure it will match the 460 with top loads. The only reason I say that is an aquaintance in America has the 450 Dakota (same capacity again) and his mate also has a 450 Dakota but neither will match the 460 at top loads.

Lastly, if due to brass etc you chamber to 460 you need to make sure the reamer used is top quality that is right on specifications for the freebore diameter. Wbys with freebore diameters that are too large can only be described as an excercise in hair pulling.

One other point, for some reason which completely escapes me, calibres like the 460 loaded back to 458 Win/Lott or 416 Rigby back to 416 Rem, 378 back to 375 etc seem to be much easier on scopes than the same ballistics generated from full pressure loads in the smaller cases. They also seem to shoot better off bedding that is not as good as it could be and also better from barrels that are only so so.

Mike









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475Guy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33559 - 22/06/05 04:47 AM

Bighammer

What you say is true for the once a coupla month shooter but if you use nothing but light loads, you tend to screw up when going back to full loads. When I first got my stuff, I had quite a few lighter loads for range time to accustom myself to a magnum length action and smooth out the rifles. At the end of every session, I'd bang off at least 20 rounds just to get nerve endings used to the heavier recoil. After all my rifles have been broken in, I don't shoot light loads in them anymore. I've found that by concentration on the rifle/load combination makes me a slightly better shooter knowing there's satisfaction at doing well with them.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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luv2safari
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33564 - 22/06/05 07:11 AM

416 Rigby...what else?!?

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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475Guy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: luv2safari]
      #33566 - 22/06/05 07:26 AM

L2S

Bruce, do you regret not having a 416 Rigby in possession? When're you gonna get another?



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (22/06/05 07:27 AM)


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luv2safari
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 475Guy]
      #33578 - 22/06/05 01:54 PM

Sam, I miss both my 416 Rigbys. This punny little 375 just isn't adaquate for our tough Swingle Bench, Nevada 'yotes. That Ruger 416 with 350 Speers was just right! I didn't like the 416 Rem; it always felt to me like a boiler ready to explode right in front of my eyes. I'm not a fan of using high pressures to do what lower pressures do quite well.

I know...modern steels/modern guns...bah-blah-blah. When was the last time you heard of something failing due to reduced pressures?

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33589 - 22/06/05 03:25 PM

Jeez Pottsy, I'll need a bit of time to digest the thought of 650gr and 750gr exiting a 45-70! I might be better off throwing rocks!

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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33591 - 22/06/05 03:36 PM

Mike378,

I was wondering when the topic of muzzle brakes would arise! I hate the things though I haven't had much experience shooting with them. Muzzle blast probably bothers me more than recoil. I don't mind lugging a 12lb rifle either providing it's balanced.

I wouldn't rebarrel a .416 Rigby. I'd have it or a .45. The .450 does seem like a lot of work for the sake of having a Rigby case and yeah, I wouldn't bother with Bertram. Lots of good stuff to mull over. By the way, this rifle is intended to be unscoped.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 475Guy]
      #33593 - 22/06/05 03:42 PM

475Guy,

I'm with you when it comes to being able to handle the rifle that you bought. No point in only shooting 45-70 loads from a .458. One good light load for smaller beasties generally is plenty. Yes, there's nothing like the satisfaction of being confident and comfortable with a big bore.


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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33594 - 22/06/05 03:45 PM

bighammer,

Based on all the responses you've received, It looks as though the ideal step up from a .375 is to purchase a .416 Rigby AND a .458 Lott.

This option is entirely reasonable unless it inflicts excess harm to the bank account.

Regarding rebarrelling to .450 Rigby, if it is a Ruger 77 RSM, rebarrelling will mean tossing out a barrel that is VERY expensive to replace..the quarter rib is machined as a part of the barrel. Reboring or simple rechambering in the same bore size is the only real option there because a custom gunsmith might charge USD $2,000 or $3,000 just to make a barrel with the integral rib.

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: luv2safari]
      #33596 - 22/06/05 03:46 PM

L2S,

The .416 Rigby does seem to be sorely missed by you. Should've kept one!



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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33598 - 22/06/05 04:00 PM

Bighammer

You can always unscrew the muzzle brake and replace with threaded cap.

A good brake does more than reduce the recoil it make the rifle kind of "just sit there", much more controllable. However, if you are going to be using a rifle without a scope probably some of the adantage of a good brake will be lost.

If you leave out of the equation the "what you want" then the 450/460 Vs 458 Lott will depend on how you use the rifle and how much you like to play with loads and so on.

For example, a 378 or 460 with a good brake is a rifle that you can rest across a sandbag on the car bonnet or the external mirror on the vehichle and use it as you would a 300 mag and unlike the 458 Lott the big ones have the trajectory.

If 2300 with 500 grainers is what you are looking for an analogy might be that the 458 Lott is the 4 cyclinder car and the 450/460 are the big V8 and even if you are in wrong gear it does not matter. To get the 2300 the loading parameters are just so much wider with the 450 or 460 which in turn makes acccuracy an easier thing to achieve. But if the rifle is not going to be scoped then some of those pluses are lost.

Mike



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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: rgp]
      #33600 - 22/06/05 04:07 PM

rgp,

If a combination was on the cards, it'd probably be a .416 Rigby and a .470 NE. Yeah, the integral quarter rib with express sights was a major reason for purchasing my .375 H&H Ruger Magnum.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33603 - 22/06/05 04:23 PM

Keep talking Mike! I need more info from real experience about muzzle brakes. Wouldn't a braked .378 or .460 over a car bonnet bbq the bonnet somewhat?! My PH in Zim was really pissed at some client who left four neat burns on his bonnet. Don't know what the calibre was.

This big capacity necessity is leading me more towards a .416 Rigby. That V8 comparison was a low blow! It brought back memories of an HSV I had a lot of fun with...prior to my getting married!! The only factory rifle I'd pick is the Ruger for the same reason that I picked my .375. The integral quarter rib with express sights. Does anyone other than Rigby chamber rifles for the .450 Rigby Rimless?


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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33606 - 22/06/05 04:38 PM

bighammer,

CZ-USA has their Safari rifles on the CZ550 action in .450 Rigby. Same gun is also offered in .404 Jeffery and .505 Gibbs. I think they cost about USD $1600 or so.

Safari Classics - Welcome to SafariClassics.Com by CZ-USA
http://safariclassics.com/

Richard.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: rgp]
      #33607 - 22/06/05 04:45 PM

rgp, thanks for that.

The only CZ/Brno that I own is an old Mark I in .22RF. Lovely rifle. I'm going to have to chase its big brother down for a good look.


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33609 - 22/06/05 05:12 PM

Bighammer,

I have never had any trouble but they have been, lets us say, rough 4 wheel drives.

You can however get brakes that only blow out the side.

http://www.nearmfg.com/products.htm

Scroll down. These people make good gear and because they are in Canada no export licence is needed.

I have aso used the KDF style brake across an ordinary car bonnet but I have had a blanket on the bonnet and virtually had a bench rest set up on the bonnet.

As Richard has mentioned CZ USA are doing 450 Rigbys. I think you will need to bring those in yourself because Winchester I think would only be dealing with CZ and these are CZ USA rifles. But that won't allow you to have matching Rugers so I would speak to De Vries about rechambering and feeding issues on the Ruger 458 Lott as a first port of call. Also, I am not sure but I think the CZ USA 450 Rigby is quite a light barrel

Let me offer if I may, some advice learned from hard experience. Try and get what you want and avoid being diverted by matters of convenience and within reason, matters of cost.

Mike




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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33612 - 22/06/05 06:05 PM

Mike,

Thanks for the info. Which, in your opinion, are the best muzzle brakes?

I shall have to compare each project carefully and weigh up the costs after speaking with the relevant people. After all this, ideally what I'd like is a braked (and silenced!) Ruger in .450 Rigby.


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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33614 - 22/06/05 06:31 PM

bighammer,

I would think a Ruger 77 in .458 Lott could be easily reachambered to .450 Rigby and the only other alterations required would be to adjust the magazine and file the sights to adjust point of impact.

Richard.


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33615 - 22/06/05 06:32 PM

Bighammer,

Wait till next week as a mate of mine is trying a different brake on a 300 Ultra.

I think Bob De Vried also makes brakes.

The KDF type brake whih is the type on Weatherbys are very effective and because the holes are all around the brake fitting them is a little easier. Obviously the brakes that just blow out to the sides are more critical for fitting.

The bigger diamter of the brake the more effective. If look at early Wbys they used what was called the slimline KDF type brake where the brake is the same diameter as the muzzle. The later Wbys uses the same brake but the brake is bigger in diameter than the barrel.

The brake reduces the recoil because:

1) It diverts the gas sideways and

2) The gas physically hits the material of the brake much like the wind on the sail of a boat. Thus a wider brake is like having a bigger sail.

The most effective brakes are the so called clam shell brakes. I will dig a couple of links up for you and post then. The Clam Shell is often seen on the 50 BMGs and tactical type rifles in calibres like 338/378. They are very wide and rather than just divert the gas sidways they direct it backwards, sort of like a jet using referse thrust on landing. On something like a 30/378 these type of brakes almost make the rife go forward on firing.

Mike



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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33616 - 22/06/05 06:36 PM

Here is a clam shell brake

http://www.jprifles.com/Remington700.html

Part of the idea of these is that recoil is reduced so much that bullet strike can be seen.

This is the KDF type brake Wby use that is larger than the barrel. This is a 30/378

http://www.hallowellco.com/Weatherby-Mk-V-20512-muzzle.jpg

And how they look with a barrel with sights here is a Ryan Breeding 500 Jeffery. I bet you will like this rifle.

http://www.rbbigbores.com/images/20inchm.jpg

Mike


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Pottsy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33618 - 22/06/05 06:50 PM

If..! you use a 600 grain Duo Diameter bullet in your single shot rifle part of the bullet lays inside the riflings giving you room in the case for powder.you seat the bullet farther forword.

Soo a 600 grain bullet fired from a single shot 45/70 should give you atleast 1400FPS and a 650 should be around 1320 FPS making a 700 grain bullet in a duo diameter/bore rider come out at about 1100 fps ... while these speeds are on the ( D a r n slow side ) just think of the fun you will have showing off your odd looking loaded rounds to your friends.

And while these also might be slow thay make a heck of a dent in hogs at close range.

And if nothing else you can use them as a pencil to write with there long enough

So what will it be a box of 50 or a box of 1000 lol




A fun bullet in a single shot is a duo diameter spitzed boattial.


Duo Diameter pictured below are 50 cal / .510 diameter



--------------------
Owner PA Bullet's


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AussieMike
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33625 - 22/06/05 07:54 PM

Mike378,

I've got a European 300Win Mag with a threaded muzzle (OK, I'll 'fess up, it's a Shorty bullpup) and am interested in trying (for the first time) a muzzle brake - any idea where I can buy an appropriate brake in Australia?

mike


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: AussieMike]
      #33632 - 22/06/05 10:39 PM

mike

The gunsmith Rob De Vries makes brakes. How good they are I have no idea.

Graham Spraggon in Sydney was importing, an as far as I know still does, the Answer brake and fits them.

Alternatively go to Brownells website and they have heaps of different muzzle brakes. However an export licence is required but they organise that as a mate of mine just got a brake from them but it took some time. From memory it was about 4 months or so.


The brake that is often regarded as the best combination of recoil reduction and noise is the Vais. The Vais is used on the Lazzeroni rifles.

The various brakes that only have the holes on the sides as opposed to all the way around the brake will be more expensive to fit because the brake has to line up with the holes pointed out to sides. With the brake with holes evenly spaced all the way around it does not matter.

If you go to the site www.longrangehunting.com and then a few forums down is one for beginners and basics and there is a big muzzle brake thread running there at the moment. I think it is still on the first page.

This place makes good gear and if you scroll down you will see their brakes that have holes is the side. The plus with these people are they are in Canada and no export licence is required. I suspect their brake will be good because you will see a lot of Weatherby type activity and they would be replacing the Wby brake that comes on 30/378 and up because they will supply them already threaded for the Wbys

http://www.nearmfg.com/products.htm


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luv2safari
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33692 - 23/06/05 02:31 PM

Bighammer,

After shooting the last Northern Nevada High Desert Gray Rhino, I just didn't see the need for a 416...

I did in all honesty use my Rigbys with the Speer 350s to shoot coyotes out by bedroom window...good practice... I kept some reloading components and a set of dies...I guess I NEED to buy a Rigby varmint rifle. I might try a CZ American and clean up the stock...install a barrel band and get rid of the stupid front sling stud right where it will do my left index finger mortal harm. I think that the same engineers who designed Triumph Spitfires are responsible for some of CZ's screw-ups.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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475Guy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: luv2safari]
      #33694 - 23/06/05 02:40 PM

L2S

What you need to do is get another Ruger RSM, but this time, the second generation one. And definitely not the one with the truck axle screwed on the receiver.

BTW, that old Ideeho cowboy's got an enfield 416 Rigby for sale.



--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (23/06/05 02:42 PM)


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33698 - 23/06/05 03:51 PM

Mike,

I'm heading to Melbourne in a couple of hours and shall look up Bob. I know he's moved so will have to track him down and see what he's up to.

You've been most helpful with all this info. I shall peruse carefully when I get back this weekend. I hate rushing gun stuff!

Talk to you more next week.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Pottsy]
      #33699 - 23/06/05 04:02 PM

The name Pottsy suits you! Just kidding! Mate, this is all new to me and my head is swimming with facts and figures. At the moment, this sounds like a fine way to blow the crap out of a lovely single shot, which, by the way, I haven't got yet! A moot point I know!

So before I order crates of bullets, I'd be happier knowing I had a rifle that could shoot them first!

Ciao.


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #33951 - 27/06/05 04:51 PM

Hi Mike,

Had a good chat with Bob about a .450 Rigby and he reckons that getting a CZ and altering the barrel, etc would be the easiest way to solve the problem.

On the subject of brakes, Bob may make them but he hates them! I guess he's only thinking of African hunting conditions. This project is down the track a little but if something should happen re the availability of a rifle or something, it could be elevated in importance! I want to get the Sharps first and then worry about it.

Any news of your mate's .300 Ultra performance?


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #33955 - 27/06/05 06:22 PM

He took it to the range and fired one shot and that was the end of the day as the Jewell trigger broke.!!!

But this muzzle brake http://www.opsinc.us/brake.php
did as claimed.

Mike



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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #34006 - 28/06/05 05:40 PM

Oops! After all that! At least the muzzle brake was a success. Not too expensive either but nothing for a .458 as yet.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #34007 - 28/06/05 06:10 PM

I notice they are have prototype for 408 and 50.

408 is for the Chey Tac round. The brake is highly recommended by people, including gunsmiths on

www.longrangehunting.com

He though the noise was noticeably less than the KDF type brake.

The Jewell trigger is a bit of a worry as this is the second one he has had break, the being about this time last year. They are about 10 years old and he has 7 or 8 of them that were bought at the same time. Perhaps a batch??

The first one broke the part that holds the firing pin and this one broke the lever that is under that part and sits on the sear and so the gun would not cock.

When I use to have bench style rifles and very accurate hunting style rifles I had Jewells but never a problem. Although mine were bought about 12 months later than my mates. So perhaps a batch of them.

Mike



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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #34008 - 28/06/05 06:24 PM

No doubt it's only a matter of time before they do have one for a .45. Not that I'm in that much of a rush either! Those brakes do look good and obviously perform as well. I like the thought of less noise!

Pity about the Jewells. Perhaps you're right about the batch but I'd expect more from a custom assembly.

Tell you what, I'm fast becoming attracted to the thought of a suitable brake and really enjoying shooting a big, fast (or both) calibre! It's got me thinking outside 'the box'!


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #34009 - 28/06/05 06:47 PM

Once you reach the stage that both my mate and I am at, that is, wear ear muffs or plugs all the time irrespective of calibre then the noise of the brake does not cause the inconvenience it might for other shooters.

Mike


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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #34012 - 28/06/05 07:13 PM

I'm already at that stage! Ear plugs are worn even in the field. One reason is to help maintain my pilot's licence! I do encourage others to wear hearing protection in the field anyway. Soon, it's going to be essential!

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atkinson6
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #34170 - 01/07/05 02:35 PM

I have never had any use for the 416 Rigby, its all nostalgia and thats OK...but I hate to waste a big action on a 416, if I have to pack all that gun, I want a big hummer like a 500 Jefferys or 505 Gibbs otherwise I will take a 416 Remington on a nice light slim gun...Thats my favorite caliber anyway along with the 404 and it too can be built on a std. magnum action....I have both, the 404 is my nostalgia lovem, and I have used it a bunch on all the big stuff with perfect satisfaction, couldn't ask for more...

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rgp
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: atkinson6]
      #34179 - 01/07/05 04:59 PM

Ray,

A .404 technically makes more sense if able to be built on a standard 98 Mauser.

A .404 would suit me, but why is the .404 cartridge uncommon in new production guns?

Is the .416 Rigby more popular now just because Federal makes ammunition or is there some other reason the .404 seems to be skipped over?

Thank you,

Richard


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atkinson6
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: rgp]
      #34286 - 04/07/05 04:45 AM

Well now that CZ has come out with a .404 the pictures is changing...

The only problem with building a 404 is finding a smith that knows how...The magazine needs a lot of refining to make it feed and US gunsmiths won't or mostly cannot make one feed...D'Arcy Echols can, but he won't, takes too much of his valuble time and thats good business on his part.


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500Nitro
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: atkinson6]
      #34291 - 04/07/05 06:13 AM


Ray

Can't you just buy a Magazine designed for the 404 now
that fits Mod 70's or Mausers ?

Is it Blackbird or someone who makes them already set up ?

500 Nitro


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475Guy
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 500Nitro]
      #34292 - 04/07/05 06:45 AM

A 404J will be popular when, and only when there's a factory load available for it. As it is now, your ammo is a home-grown handload or a custom one.

500- I believe you're referring to Blackburn's dropbox magazines and they're expensive.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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458RugerNo1
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #34789 - 18/07/05 07:13 AM

To me your answer is very simple... You've got the RSM in .375 H&H and like it, so the logical twin to it should be the Lott in another RSM.

You can load it down a bit or just use Win Mags in it and you'll have a matched pair of thumpers. The .458" bullets are very plentiful and there are lots of choices. The Lott and Win are easy to load for also. If I'm not mistaken Rigby brass is a bit expensive isn't it?

I've been extremely impressed with my .375 Ruger RSM and IMHO it's a fantastic deal with all the features 90% of hunters ask for in a big game rifle. Just thoroughly test fire it for function, perhaps have it bedded and you're in business.

--------------------
God Bless old Elmer Keith!


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Ndumo
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #34828 - 19/07/05 06:02 AM

Bighammer

Sound advice from a few guys on the 450 Rigby. I shoot one, and I would not trade it even for a 500 Jeffreys or 505 Gibbs. (MAYBE for a double in 500 NE....) Have a look at an article I wrote on the 450 on my website, www.huntingsafaris.net
In it I also explained how easy you can fireform 416 Rigby cases to 450 Rigby. I do not like Bertram brass (properly headstamped), and only use Norma brass (416 stamped) that I have restamped. I cross borders regularly with it, without any problems.

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416


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Boomer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Ndumo]
      #34867 - 20/07/05 01:16 AM

When I owned my .416 Rigby I loved it, but I hated the cost of that Norma brass. For those of us on a tighter budget who want a hotrod .458 I would choose the .375 RUM case. A .458/375 Ultra is very similar to the .460 G&A which was developed back in the early '70's. Brass is affordable and available, and 500 gr bullets can be pushed at 2400 fps without undue pressure. I think with the Ultra family of catridges on the horizon, Remington missed the boat by not bringing their .416 and a .458 out on the Ultra platform.

--------------------



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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: 458RugerNo1]
      #35051 - 25/07/05 05:16 PM

I did think hard about the Lott in a twin RSM but the thought of a big Rigby case is most attractive! As I've mentioned before, there's no substitute for cubic inches and I like achieving performance with ease. It feels better!

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Bighammer
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Ndumo]
      #35053 - 25/07/05 06:00 PM

Ndumo,

Thank you for the info. It was a great read about the .450 Rigby. I'd have thought that even 10.5lbs might be too light for such a cartridge. I know it mightn't be a cartridge that's shot a great deal regularly but one still has to be confident with it. Then again, you might well shoot your .450 all the time with various loads given your line of work. A removable muzzle brake is another option!

I haven't convinced myself either way whether I should go the way of a .416 or .450 but a Rigby it has to be!


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Ndumo
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Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #35054 - 25/07/05 07:07 PM

BigHammer

Yes, I shoot my .450 more than most of my other rifles, and I think I handle the recoil well by now. (I still hate to shoot it from the bench though...) I do not like muzzle brakes, and will not fit any on any one of my rifles. The key to shooting big bores without flinch is mental conditioning. I believe you can do it by telling yourself that the rifle cannot hurt you, and of course lots of practice. BTW, before I went out to hunt with it the first time, I fired more than 150 shots on the range. I like to use a fullsize buffalo target for practice, and had to draw one when I started out with the cartridge. Luckily, the SA Hunters and Conservation Assosiation of which I am a member, brought out a very realistic 3/4 color target which is great for practice. I normally put it up at 50 yards, and then dash around it from the firing line. On reaching the firing line again, (the adrenalin and my breath racing), I fire 3 shots at the target. I try to keep time to fire these shots under 6 seconds.
Whichever one you choose between the .416 or the .450 Rigby, as a hunting client, you will be very well equipped. I chose the .450 for extra insurance

--------------------
Karl Stumpfe
Ndumo Hunting Safaris (Pty) Ltd.
karl@huntingsafaris.net
www.huntingsafaris.net
+264 811 285 416


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Bighammer
.275 member


Reged: 14/06/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Ndumo]
      #35104 - 26/07/05 02:02 PM

Ndumo,

At present, my Ruger .375 H&H is the biggest rifle that I hunt with seriously. It hasn't come close to letting me down and I doubt it ever will. It is also great to shoot.

Yet, there's this hankering for a bigger bore! Wonder why?! I like round figures like 45 or 50. .416 just seems to be in there somewhere! However, having shot a .416 Rem, I loved the extra power. 400 grains is good but 500 grains has a finality about it, if you know what I mean!

If Ruger ever produce a .450 Rigby, my decision's made.


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atkinson6
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Next one up from a .375 H&H [Re: Bighammer]
      #35226 - 30/07/05 08:57 AM

Nobody makes a 404 box, the Blackburn is a 416 box and its a poor substitute..Weisner made a 404 box at one time but no more...It is imparative to have the inside cuts in the sized .404 box ala the original Mauser..The original Mauser never failed, because of those cuts that only allowed side contact on the rim and shoulder, with the rest of the case and bullet free...Again Paul Mauser proved his worth....Remington has done the same with their box in the RUM series that are made on the 404 case and I have been told that you can use those boxes in a M-70 and come up with a functioning 404....

With a good tig welding gunsmith it is possiver to convert a Blackburn box or Sunny Hill box to a 404 that will function...


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