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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: Huvius]
      #329596 - 23/06/19 06:27 PM

The original Maharajah who owned it as the first .416 Rigby shot over 1600 tigers, plus a great many other game. Also three African safaris.

I think it indicated in the comments, he used the rifle on a lot of species. Shot it out. So it was later re-barrelled with a new .416 set of barrels and the original set rebored to .470. Quadruple the fun!

But it also goes to show, a .416 No.2 Rimmed double rifle might just be a great allrounder choice for dangerous game AND plains game.

I'd LOVE one! I would spoil it by adding a low poowered lighter variable scope, a 1-#x scope with a good heavier reticle. Hopefully it would regulate well enough at closer ranges for 400 gr projectiles with express sights ie if regulated with a scope, A plains game rifle IMO needs a scope nowadays even if only a 4x. 4x actually is my choice of hunting scope powers, a 6x or 8x is only needed for small game or ridiculous long ranged shots.

I would love a Rigby double rifle in a .416 No. 2 Rimmed. But NO WAY could I ever afford even their starting price.

So if a different maker turns out some chamberings, a Heym or Verney-Carron for instance, then it will be a choice between the .416 No.2, a .375 Flanged or a .375 V-C.

Dreams ....

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329604 - 24/06/19 08:31 AM

The original Maharajah who owned it as the first .416 Rigby shot over 1600 tigers, plus a great many other game. Also three African safaris.

PLEASE:
Did you habe more Infos about that great hunter?
Thank you.
J.


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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: Jaguarhunter]
      #329609 - 24/06/19 08:44 PM

If I could have a new Rigby Rising Bite double rifle it certainly would be a .450NE as that was the classic caliber originally chambered in the Rigby. That's a rifle to die for!

I'm not against a new caliber being offered, but I wouldn't go for the new-fangled offering. Just me.

Dreamin' of a new Rigby . . . Oh my!

Curl

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #329610 - 24/06/19 09:15 PM

The joke is on me!

I just went to the Rigby website to wishfully configure a Rising Bite double rifle. IT'S NOT OFFERED IN .450NE!

I bet they would build one if asked, though. At a base price of GBP 118,000 they won't have to be worrying about my preferences. But I do wish!!!

Curl

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #329612 - 24/06/19 10:18 PM

Quote:

The joke is on me!

I just went to the Rigby website to wishfully configure a Rising Bite double rifle. IT'S NOT OFFERED IN .450NE!

I bet they would build one if asked, though. At a base price of GBP 118,000 they won't have to be worrying about my preferences. But I do wish!!!

Curl




Someone mentioned a starting price of approx GBP120,000 ? I am sure they could chamber it.

I'm going to start a new thread. On which cartridge was associated with which brand of gunmaker.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: Jaguarhunter]
      #329617 - 24/06/19 10:24 PM

Quote:

The original Maharajah who owned it as the first .416 Rigby shot over 1600 tigers, plus a great many other game. Also three African safaris.

PLEASE:
Did you habe more Infos about that great hunter?
Thank you.
J.




Hi Jaguarhunter,

My comments came from the links.

I will re-record here. Otherwise information on that Maharajah may exist somewhere on the net or with a member.

BTW ending you a PM.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329619 - 24/06/19 10:30 PM

.416/470 SxS Double Rifle - John Rigby & Co.

https://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/watermark.php?file=4747&size=1

The Maharaja's Rifle, a John Rigby Double Rifle .416/.470

John Rigby and Company Sidelock Double Rifle in .416/470. a special caliber deviced & customized on order for One Maharaja in India for his dark continent expeditions, this game double SxS rifle is of substance, with magnificent wood and metal work. Fantastic figure is found in the walnut stocks, tasteful engraving with the Surguja State Crest on the locks embellishes a rock-solid action, with dolls head extension with rear V sights 100 fixed 200 &300 yards leafs and ivory bobble foresight which was used for his night shoots of tigers & Leopards from a machan (Hide) on a kill.

This rifle was built for the Maharaja Ramanuj Saran Singh Deo (1917-1965) of Surguja State (India) in 1939. This is the only double of that caliber made by John Rigby & Co.

Truly an unusual rifle. Makers case and accessories. This unique double rifle was completed by John Rigby & Co. on a special order placed to the John Rigby & Co. in 1936 and was completed and dispatched to the Maharaja of Surguja in 1939. It is said the Maharaja paid a substantial sum of 6000 pounds for this customised rifle.

With this rifle of his he nearly took 500 + odd tigers ,leopards & lots of game species in Indian Subcontinent & in Africa. He has the world record of taking 1157 tigers in his life time. And it said that after his 1100th tiger he left keeping the count of the Tigers he shot , which is estimated the head count went upto 1710 tigers.

This finely engraved rifle is believed to be available at Cabelas now which was bought by some American Hunter in 1970s. from the Sarguja Royal family.

https://www.africahunting.com/hunting-pictures-videos/watermark.php?file=4748

From the AH thread.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329620 - 24/06/19 10:41 PM

As usual the images on the AH site probably came from NITROEXPRESS.COM !

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=71834&an=&page=0&vc=1

From February 2007.

Sourced from the Cabellas website, and absolutely certainly gone by 2010 when poached and posted on the AH site. It not poached this time, it isn't the first or last time that happens on that site. Quite routine actually.



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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329621 - 24/06/19 10:49 PM



More on the .416 Express/ Rimmed also commented earlier.

Again from NitroExpress.com.

I assume the rifle being discussed ie a .416/470 was again this Maharajah's rifle, and not a necked down .470, but the twin set of barrels with this rifle. It isn't common for people to buy and sell these rifles every few years. Not users and hunters, just out to make a buck ...

The claim seems to be by one infamous troll "netxpert" that the .416 Express is actually the .500/416 by another name.

No idea if any of this is true.



470evans
416/470 Rigby
#34919 - 21/07/05 12:05 PM (216.82.215.63)

Interesting Rigby for sale on GunsAmerica by Keith Kearcher for 78k. There is a similar but older one it seems at Champlin's.


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Re: 416/470 Rigby [Re: 470evans]
#35223 - 30/07/05 08:11 AM (208.148.124.29)

It is the same gun as the 500/416 now being offered to the public...I know Searcy produces them and so does Rigby, Holland and Holland but under the 500/416 designation..

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=34919&an=&page=0&vc=1

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329916 - 09/07/19 12:57 AM

Quote:






Some asked whether this is a Woodleigh Hydro capped projectile loaded in the Rigby factory ammo?

Per Marc Newton, the answer is YES.

Which must be a 400 gr Hydro, with the plastic cap.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #329917 - 09/07/19 01:03 AM

Quote:

The joke is on me!

I just went to the Rigby website to wishfully configure a Rising Bite double rifle. IT'S NOT OFFERED IN .450NE!

I bet they would build one if asked, though. At a base price of GBP 118,000 they won't have to be worrying about my preferences. But I do wish!!!

Curl




I wonder if there is any listed in all those "Rigby" sets of photos I have posted, or have yet to post?

But something different if you wait.

After the .416 Rigby No. 2 Rimmed has had a run, there may well be a new Rigby cartridge. A .450 Rigby, with an added flange or rim. A .450 Rigby No 2.

If ever created, will be a hot loading for a double rifle. Marc says he thinks the DR is strong enough to take it.

We will have to wait and see if the Rigby company ever decides to give it a try, and a .450 Rigby No.2 Flanged is created.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329918 - 09/07/19 01:08 AM

I think 'they' are still (not sure) restricted to non -government calibres in India, which means no .450's allowed.
Thus a .416 and .470 are both allowed, as are .500's, etc.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329919 - 09/07/19 01:10 AM



The original rimless .416 Rigby cartridge side by side with the .416 Rigby No.2 Flanged.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: Daryl_S]
      #329920 - 09/07/19 01:17 AM

Quote:

I think 'they' are still (not sure) restricted to non -government calibres in India, which means no .450's allowed.
Thus a .416 and .470 are both allowed, as are .500's, etc.




Daryl, I doubt any gun or ammo makers factor in India seriously into what they make nowadays.

Hunting there happens, mostly under the table, and is mostly banned. Every animal is sacred or holy according to someone somewhere. And hunting is viewed as elitist, by the socialists and part if the Rajah and Colonial era. Even Bollywood stars have been gaoled for shooting a relatively common animal.

It does happen. I was invited by two different people to hunt there. Never did. Didn't see the attraction of a damp shit smeared cell for five years before a trial, for the game being considered.

Target shooting of course is conducted.

other than that it is sad, but mostly part of nostalgia.

Rigby is a UK company, and guns depending on model, or components are either made in the UK or Germany. Mauser are of course shareholders and also suppliers of some components. Finished off or made from scratch by Rigby depending on model and price.

The Rising Bite double rifles are reported as 100% UK Rigby made.

Barrels, who knows. I have seen barrels for all sorts of brand makers in two gun makers workshops.

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Edited by NitroX (09/07/19 01:18 AM)


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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329927 - 09/07/19 06:41 AM

I hope that Rigby does really well with the new cartridge, it looks good, sounds good and obviously works. It is great to see a new rimmed cartridge introduced among all the other hordes of rimless cartridges that have been introduced lately.

Would be a good choice for a Ruger No.1 for those who can't afford a Rigby double. It will be interesting to see if other double rifle makers such as Heym, Merkel and Verney Carron etc. end up offering the cartridge in their rifles.

I believe that Ian Clark Engineering does much of the machining for Rigby.

Matt.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329928 - 09/07/19 06:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:






Some asked whether this is a Woodleigh Hydro capped projectile loaded in the Rigby factory ammo?

Per Marc Newton, the answer is YES.

Which must be a 400 gr Hydro, with the plastic cap.




I have no experience whatsoever with the Woodleigh Hydro bullets, but wouldn't the plastic cap potentially interfere with the hydro action produced by the shape of the front of the bullet?

I've never shot one and have no experience. Just asking, not being critical.

As I said before, if I had the $$$ to order up a new rising bite, I would not choose this caliber. I don't, so it's moot. Wish I could.

Maybe they could send me one for trials on Shit Ridge and a big write-up on NE.com! And to keep for my very own!

Curl

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #329935 - 09/07/19 08:42 AM

Isnt the 470 just the 500 neck down?

So how is the 416/470 any different than the 416/500?




And is the 416 No 2 just the 416 rigby with a rim added?


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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: wkudu]
      #329938 - 09/07/19 12:27 PM

Quote:


And is the 416 No 2 just the 416 rigby with a rim added?




Basically yes.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #329939 - 09/07/19 12:44 PM

Quote:

I have no experience whatsoever with the Woodleigh Hydro bullets, but wouldn't the plastic cap potentially interfere with the hydro action produced by the shape of the front of the bullet?

I've never shot one and have no experience. Just asking, not being critical.

As I said before, if I had the $$$ to order up a new rising bite, I would not choose this caliber. I don't, so it's moot. Wish I could.

Maybe they could send me one for trials on Shit Ridge and a big write-up on NE.com! And to keep for my very own!

Curl




Woodleigh introduced the cap for better aerodynamic flight I believe. i believe it is designed to blow away easily on impact. Whether it interferes with the "hydro" or "deadly" "bubble" I have no idea. I question the "bubbles" existence in the first place, in the absence of any real scientific study and evidence. People do like them, and think they work well. Maybe some of them can comment on your question.

I think the main advantage for the expensive Hydro bullet, ie as a reloading component, or in factory ammo, is it is monometal, and so can be used in ridiculous legal jurisdictions which completely ban any lead or lead core bullets. Such as California and some German states.

The Hydro also has raised driving bands allowing the monometal bullet to be raised relatively safely in rifles such as double rifles, which might otherwise have some issues with pressure, or barrel expansion (OSR) in the absence of driving bands.

Back to the .416 Rigby No. 2 Flanged. People have expressed a preference for the vintage .450 Nitro Express as a chambering. And why not? It is still one of the best choices, more than a hundred years later. But if a .416 Rimmed Rigby rifle was regulated for say a 450 gr Woodleigh RNSP and FMJs in .416 calibre, how effective would such a bullet be against a traditional 480 gr .458 projectile in a .450 NE at about 2100 fps. Better sectional density, and probably increased penetrative ability. How fast could a 450 gr projectile be driven by a .416 No. 2? If a 400 gr is about 2400 fps, my guess is around 2100 to 2200 fps.

A negative might be somewhat increased pressure, and a somewhat decreased frontal calibre area, .416 compared to .458. Frontal area is a factor in killing and knockdown power, as well as sectional density/penetration, weight, and velocity.

Curl, as you know, the .450 NE is a favourite of mine as well, in the .450 No.2 NE cartridge. I think a .416 Rigby No.2 chambered rifle, would largely do a similar job with a 450 gr bullet, but lesser job with a 400 gr bullet. Why not one of each? You will have to wait for the one they can send me, before you get your testing example. I think we will both be waiting a long time mate.

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329940 - 09/07/19 12:46 PM

In any case, I like the .416 Rigby No.2 because it is a worthwhile new cartridge, now a factory cartridge.

It hopefully will be supported by other makers and ammunition makers.

In reality nothing much different to the existing .500/416 NE. I supported that cartridge, and liked the concept of it as well.

Most importantly the .416 Rigby No.2 gives use something new to talk about. And argue about!

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #329960 - 09/07/19 10:30 PM

Quote:

. . . You will have to wait for the one they can send me, before you get your testing example. I think we will both be waiting a long time mate.






John, you get the .416 No. 2, and I'll get a .450 3-1/4" NE.

Curl

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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CptCurl]
      #331156 - 14/08/19 11:05 AM

Woodleigh added the cap for better feeding in bolt action rifles. Being a solid, aerodynamics doesn't matter. As for performance, the cap doesn't do any harm (it's quickly demolished upon entry).

Regarding Rigby's rimmed .416, it is a brilliant move!


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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CTDolan]
      #331165 - 14/08/19 05:22 PM

Quote:

Woodleigh added the cap for better feeding in bolt action rifles. Being a solid, aerodynamics doesn't matter. As for performance, the cap doesn't do any harm (it's quickly demolished upon entry).

Regarding Rigby's rimmed .416, it is a brilliant move!




Correct. The bubble apparently does exist. The bloke that designed them is an metal engineer or similar and I think wind tunnel tested or by some other method established that happens. Like a flat nose solid will have a vacuum in from of it and this acts much the same. Cap didn't do any harm to the 416 400grn Hydro I dropped my Elephant with.


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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: CTDolan]
      #331166 - 14/08/19 05:27 PM

The Hydro's were developed by an Australian metallurgist, John Marrozzi, and the concept really works. They penetrate like crazy and make a bigger wound channel than just about any other non-expanding bullet out there.

In addition, they are soft to use on older barrels as well, a big plus. The cap was added to aid feeding in bolt-action rifles. The uncapped Hydro's sometimes created feeding problems.


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Re: The New .416 No.2 Rimmed Rigby Cartridge [Re: Rule303]
      #331298 - 17/08/19 06:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Woodleigh added the cap for better feeding in bolt action rifles. Being a solid, aerodynamics doesn't matter. As for performance, the cap doesn't do any harm (it's quickly demolished upon entry).

Regarding Rigby's rimmed .416, it is a brilliant move!




Correct. The bubble apparently does exist. The bloke that designed them is an metal engineer or similar and I think wind tunnel tested or by some other method established that happens. Like a flat nose solid will have a vacuum in from of it and this acts much the same. Cap didn't do any harm to the 416 400grn Hydro I dropped my Elephant with.




The alleged "bubble" has zero to do with flight and "wind tunnels". A wind tunnel will allow assessing of the ballistics and flight. A cup point or flat point, will NOT fly efficiently, a round nose with the "cap" will fly marginally better. No one even claims a "bubble" will form for the bullet in flight. Why don't we see all these supersonic cup pointed aircraft otherwise. The unscientifically supported "bubble" is what is claimed happens in the flesh of an animal. To claim to explain why the claimed wider wound canal or channel is wider than the calibre size. A magical "bubble" of air forms in front of the projectile, wider than the calibre size and creates the damaged.

I believe some have tried ballistic gel type test material to shoot the hydros into and show the wider "wound channel". This is probably the right approach.

By scientifically proven, I mean an independent testing of a suitable sample size, the hydro with the same velocity or at least powder charge, against the same weight FMJ's and SPs of varying designs. Same velocity, same bullet weight, same calibre. But independent. And not people sent free bullets by the maker. For stories in magazines and the internet.

I would also like to see a physicist with a theoretical knowledge of ballistics and aerodynamics, explain how a "bubble" forms and works.

Sorry it sounds like a lot of hokum to me scientficially. The reason i have said I would like to see it proven.

As for the people that say it works, Good-O. Pay for them and use them. Most intelligent commenters I have seen say it is better penetrating than a expanding SP, but a lesser wound channel, and possibly penetrates less than a dedicated FMJ. Or maybe penetrates similar to a FMJ. Claiming it is better than a SP AND a FMJ again, wishful thinking IMO. It is an expensive compromise bullet.

One advantage is the driving bands, and less frictional wear and tear on barrels and rifling, pressure etc. Possibly a big advantage in think walled barrels and older vintage rifles.

If hunting elephant, I would use a dedicated FMJ every time before a hydro. If hunting buffalo, maybe I would try it, if I was confident it would cause a greater than FMJ wound channel. Not hard to use complementary SPs and FMJs though. And have the best of both types of bullet.

In some markets and jurisdictions, one has to use a monometal projectile and pay for the nose for them.

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