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3DogMike
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers
#330933 - 08/08/19 09:52 AM

I have a relatively rare "small bore" inbound - .242 Vickers Mauser by Cogswell and Harrison.

The rifle is missing its bolt so its first stop will be Steve Bertram (www.bertramandco.com) for a new bolt assembly and possibly cleanup of the metal work with a fresh rust bluing job.
While there I will have Steve do a chamber cast to confirm dimensions and exact groove diameter so I can get the correct reducing die from Corbin to squeeze a 100 grain .25 caliber down. Failing that a .243 could be "bumped up".......
Standard .242 Vickers bullet diameter was .249" but the neck and throat will tell the tale of exact bullet diameter needed.

Reloading dies were actually the easiest part, sourced a set of North Devon Firearms Service dies from "Jack First". It is said that common readily available .25-06 brass can be sized in one pass then trimmed before fire forming.

I have contacted Cogswell and Harrison for whatever info they have on this rifle, will be interested to see that turns up.

Additional details when this one arrives.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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tinker
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Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#330934 - 08/08/19 10:44 AM

Very cool!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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93x64mm
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: tinker]
#330940 - 08/08/19 05:56 PM

Shame its missing its bolt 3DM!
Looks a pretty niffy piece of kit there, I've never heard of this calibre before.
When you do get a chance can you please put in the loading data for this as it appears to be a 'rare' bird indeed!

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3DogMike
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 93x64mm]
#330949 - 09/08/19 01:02 AM

A very rare chambering indeed.......apparently not too popular and faded into obscurity fairly early on.
Possibly due to the onset of WWII then after the war the hunting bans in India?

The only load data I have found is from "Cartridges of the World" as well as an article in the 1972 6th edition "Handloaders Digest" by Ken Waters.
Per Cartridges of the World the original .242 Vickers loading is said to have been 40.5 grains of "Nitro Cellulose" for 2800'/sec with a 100 grain bullet.

Cartridges of the World:
39 grains of 4350
34 Grains of 4895
both for about 2800'/sec

Ken Waters data:
42 grains of (IMR?) 4350
48 grains of H4831
no velocities mentioned; Waters' loads in his "Pet Loads" tended to be pretty hot.

The .242 Vickers cartridge is similar to and only slightly larger than the 6mm/.244 Remington so starting loads for the 6mm/244 Rem look like a decent guideline.

Right now Cogswell & Harrison are stumped because of the 4 digit serial number, they are still checking.........maybe a Vickers made and numbered rifle marked and retailed by Cogswell and Harrison? The barrel is marked "Cogswell & Harrison, Ltd" which indicates that the rifle is from some time after the 1932 liquidation and reorganization of Cogswell and Harrison.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#330956 - 09/08/19 05:07 AM

hope its a standard length action so find another bolt will be easy
headspace is another question

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#330966 - 09/08/19 09:35 AM

Seller said a standard M98 bolt entered and closed fine.......? Just no attempt to go farther as to install to be shootable.

Headspace should not be insurmountable because if nothing else, due to no available loaded ammunition, this is a totally handload only proposition. If close enough then fireform brass to fit the chamber and headspace.

Here's the proof marks and serial number on the action ring; will have a look under the wood when I take delivery to see if there are any other markings such as Vickers-Armstrong, etc.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#330972 - 09/08/19 11:20 AM

A resized .30-06 using the NDFS .242 Vickers sizing die. Several gentle passes into the FL die using Imperial Sizing Die Wax, trim to 2.38"/60mm and eureka, a perfectly formed case.
I think to avoid possible thick necks and need for neck reaming I will use .25-06 for actual shooting brass.

That is a SHORT case neck!

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wkudu
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#330976 - 09/08/19 02:57 PM

hey i almost bought that too!

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3DogMike
.400 member

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Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: wkudu]
#331061 - 12/08/19 10:39 AM

Quote:

hey i almost bought that too!

Ah Ha....another man with both fine taste and vision (as well as a perchant for obscure British calibers)

My guy Steve Bertram (www.bertramandco.com) will soon be busy bringing this one back to shooting condition and it's rightful period correct heritage.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331276 - 17/08/19 10:35 AM

This is a surprising discovery; this rifle's groove-groove measures 4 grooves and .255", a sample original Kynoch bullet is .247" diameter while the commonly stated bullet diameter was supposed to be .249".
Makes me wonder if the .242 Vickers became unpopular because of bullets essentially rattling down the bore and thus not being too accurate?

The up side of this is that a common .257" bullet is easily sized down .002" in a Corbin reduction die. Case necks may need inside reaming or neck turning........we shall see.
-Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331278 - 17/08/19 12:47 PM

Make sure to check release room in the neck. (Of course you will, Mike. Just posted this for others)

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: DarylS]
#331282 - 17/08/19 01:13 PM

Quote:

Make sure to check release room in the neck. (Of course you will, Mike. Just posted this for others)

Something to be very mindful of when fooling with a long obsolete 95 year old cartridge that is going to amount to a modified, slightly undersize bullet, .25-06........

After forming and trimming of .30-06 & .25-06 cases with the .242 Vickers die and measuring I cannot help wondering if Manton and Kynoch did pretty much exactly that; necked down a .30-06 (.30 USG) case to nominally .242 specs? The case taper is a hair more and consequent shoulder diameter is a bit less, but base to shoulder is, as closely as I can measure, the same and shoulder angle is for all purposes the same as far as I can discern.
Yes, while the -06 case is very overbore for a ~.250" 100 grain bullet with the powders available in 1924; like all the cartridges meant for tropical use in "the Colonies" this large case at 2800'/sec meant comparatively lower pressures which were a desirable thing back then.

The adventure continues!
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331283 - 17/08/19 01:52 PM

whatever it was then you are fortunate today to have so much basic brass to choose from

did the rifle now have a bolt again?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroX
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#331300 - 17/08/19 06:40 PM

I wonder if the .242 and .255 calibre differences is like the .303 and .312 bore differences in naming? And .318 and .330? Using lands width rather than bore calibre.

Or something like that.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ash
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#331302 - 17/08/19 09:23 PM

Please for the love of God don’t drill and tap this!

Looks beautiful!

--------------------
.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Ash]
#331308 - 17/08/19 11:47 PM

Quote:

Please for the love of God don’t drill and tap this!

Looks beautiful!

Now THAT got a chuckle out of me!......no, no way, no drill & tap, no heavy repolish and hot blue, no Weatherby stock finish.......this one gets a "gentle" restoration to what it was.
Will get a new bolt with period straight (no scope) bolt handle treatment and pear shaped Mauser knob, clean up minor corrosion on a couple of spots on the barrel and mag floor plate, re rust blue. Not re-finish the stock, just needs a refresh on a couple of dry or moisture impacted spots.
Having Steve Bertram do it right so that it will look again as it was in use in the game fields circa 1930's.

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331309 - 17/08/19 11:58 PM

Lancaster and Nitro John
The rifle does not yet have a bolt, we just yesterday actually got delivery. Steve Bertram is chasing one down to use in the "restoration" to shooting condition.

The ".242" undoubtedly was the expected bore at top of rifling lands while the groove depth was supposedly ~.249". Who knows now, maybe Vickers quality control for bore dimensions was not that good?
As I have sourced an original unfired box of 10 Kynoch .242 Vickers I can say with fair certainty that all the Kynoch .242 Vickers ammo had bullets of .247" diameter.

- Mike

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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331314 - 18/08/19 03:32 AM

maybe oversized bore for dealing with high pressure?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#331318 - 18/08/19 05:08 AM

Poor consistency on bore diameters, maybe? .247" is not bad for a .249" groove diameter & likely shoot just fine.
My old 9.3x57 had .370" groove dia. and still shoots all bullets from 225gr. to 300gr. & from .365" to .367" bullets into 1 1/8" or better at 100meters - most weights are under an inch.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#331320 - 18/08/19 05:11 AM

Quote:

maybe oversized bore for dealing with high pressure?

Who knows......the answer is lost to the mists of time.
Maybe "made on a Monday", or the guy running the rifling machine had one too many pots of beer at lunch?
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: DarylS]
#331321 - 18/08/19 05:16 AM

Quote:

Poor consistency on bore diameters, maybe? .247" is not bad for a .249" groove diameter & likely shoot just fine.
My old 9.3x57 had .370" groove dia. and still shoots all bullets from 225gr. to 300gr. & from .365" to .367" bullets into 1 1/8" or better at 100meters - most weights are under an inch.

Yep, undersized bullets can do just fine. My R.B. Rodda .404 Jeffery (circa 1929, probably by Schüler) has groove to groove diameter of .4285" and shoots just fine with standard .423" Woodleigh's..........

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331327 - 18/08/19 07:49 AM

There is a really good chance - heightened by a large capacity case to bore ratio, of increased throat & groove wear due gas blow-by from oversized cases.
While not much of a problem in low pressure or smaller cased rounds, it is still there to some extent - has to be.
My 1929 Swede though, is still shooting like a brand new rifle. Go figure.
The rifle's chamber will not allow larger than .367" bullets to be used in it's .370" bore. To use larger bullets, I would have to relieve the chamber neck with a "Chucking Reamer". Those are available from reamer makers in .001" diameter increments.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ash
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331388 - 19/08/19 09:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Please for the love of God don’t drill and tap this!

Looks beautiful!

Now THAT got a chuckle out of me!......no, no way, no drill & tap, no heavy repolish and hot blue, no Weatherby stock finish.......this one gets a "gentle" restoration to what it was.
Will get a new bolt with period straight (no scope) bolt handle treatment and pear shaped Mauser knob, clean up minor corrosion on a couple of spots on the barrel and mag floor plate, re rust blue. Not re-finish the stock, just needs a refresh on a couple of dry or moisture impacted spots.
Having Steve Bertram do it right so that it will look again as it was in use in the game fields circa 1930's.

I’ve seen plenty of unmolested great conditon rifles drilled for a scope. I die a little inside each time.

--------------------
.

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3DogMike
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Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Ash]
#331393 - 19/08/19 12:46 PM

Quote:

I’ve seen plenty of unmolested great conditon rifles drilled for a scope. I die a little inside each time.

I am of the same mind....sacrilege.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331395 - 19/08/19 02:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

maybe oversized bore for dealing with high pressure?

Who knows......the answer is lost to the mists of time.
Maybe "made on a Monday", or the guy running the rifling machine had one too many pots of beer at lunch?
- Mike

read a report about carbine 88 making by C.G.Haenel in Suhl in the 1880s. the official was complaining about the fact that production could be go much quicker if the worker's not allways bringing bear into the factory and this was not meaning single bottles.
the management was more or less helplessly against it he wrote.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Igorrock
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#331397 - 19/08/19 05:21 PM

Quote:

the worker's not allways bringing bear into the factory and this was not meaning single bottles.

Did they really drink finnish beer ?

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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NitroX
.700 member

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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Igorrock]
#331401 - 19/08/19 06:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the worker's not allways bringing bear into the factory and this was not meaning single bottles.

Did they really drink finnish beer ?

Ha ha. I think Lancaster does well with English. I think bringing bears into the factory would be quite disruptive as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331402 - 19/08/19 06:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I’ve seen plenty of unmolested great conditon rifles drilled for a scope. I die a little inside each time.

I am of the same mind....sacrilege.
- Mike

An alternative view might be that if it allows some old rifles to actually be used, in the field, for hunting, to be fitted with a scope, then that is to the good. All these lovely old rifles filling gun safes, sometimes hundreds for a collector to me is a great shame as well.

Some hunters still can and do use open sights. Many today don't or can't. I dread the day, when I can no longer use open sights. So of my rifles, are ONLY open sights. And would need new examples to be acquired to allow modern optics of some sort to be substituted.

Some old vintage rifles, especially rook rifles and those of smaller calibre, such as .22's of sorts, do really benefit from having modern precise aiming sights available. In my youth I could crawl a hundred metres to shoot a rabbit in the head at 7 metres. Not so today.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1652
Loc: Australia

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#331405 - 19/08/19 06:21 PM

Plenty of say .425’s that are already drilled, get one of them, don’t buy one that isn’t and drill it.. that’s my point.

--------------------
.

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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Igorrock]
#331420 - 20/08/19 12:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

the worker's not allways bringing bear into the factory and this was not meaning single bottles.

Did they really drink finnish beer ?

you got me early in the morning

dont like pils I remember drinking a beer only made from rye in finland, was very good.

it seems in the 19. century drinking beer at work was very common and you were realy in trouble if you try to forbid it

in 1873 there was a so called beer riot in Frankfurt a. Main / Germany with the military shooting and 20 men dead because the brewerys put up the price from 4 to 4 1/2 Kreuzer. the best known but not the only incident.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#331422 - 20/08/19 01:47 AM

What's the favourite beer in Aussie-land?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: DarylS]
#331431 - 20/08/19 04:03 AM

in Springfield its Duff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqfLOJGS_7o

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#331438 - 20/08/19 06:25 AM

Great Northern - more so up here in North Queensland (NQ)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northern_Brewing_Co.

Not sure what the 'Mexicans' drink down South, Victoria Bitter for Victorians & Tooheys beer for the New South Welshmen I guess?????
Bet I get a bite here!

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NitroX
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: DarylS]
#331450 - 20/08/19 01:09 PM

Quote:

What's the favourite beer in Aussie-land?

Among knowledgeable Aussies such as South Australians, Coopers Brewery is one of the better ones.

And while I make no claim to it being anything like a best, there is a famous named beer as well, "Hahn".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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MickoC
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#331504 - 21/08/19 09:14 PM

XXXX Gold is the most popular mid strength Beer and I believe Victoria Bitter is the most popular full strength Beer in Australia

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Ash
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: MickoC]
#331505 - 21/08/19 09:19 PM

XXXX is good for a social brew, I’m a big fan of Carlton Blacks personally.

--------------------
.

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DarylS
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#331510 - 21/08/19 11:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What's the favourite beer in Aussie-land?

Among knowledgeable Aussies such as South Australians, Coopers Brewery is one of the better ones.

And while I make no claim to it being anything like a best, there is a famous named beer as well, "Hahn".

Of course, there is. Next spring, I should have a month or so to test out ALL of your claims.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ash
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: DarylS]
#331521 - 22/08/19 12:04 AM

Hold up! Daryl you coming over? Will you have any time in south east Queensland?

--------------------
.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Ash]
#331527 - 22/08/19 04:22 AM

Right then.......away from beer for just a moment.

Cogswell & Harrison....no luck.
Have heard back from Cogswell & Harrison and they have no records for rifles made by other makers and then marked/retailed by Cogswell & Harrison.
They say that all their rifles were 5 digit serial numbers while this one is 4 digit.

By the "Cogswell & Harrison, Ltd." barrel stamp it would indicate procured and stamped by them on or after 1932.

Unknown so far if this would be a Vickers-Armstrongs made rifle or if it came from the trade; have found no other markings, save proof marks, on the rifle.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Ash
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#331575 - 22/08/19 11:43 PM

You’ll just have to send it to me then, what a shame

--------------------
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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Ash]
#331580 - 23/08/19 01:22 AM

Quote:

You’ll just have to send it to me then, what a shame

I will get right on it!

-or-
Just pop on across the Pacific Ocean to visit "The Peoples Republic of Colorado" and shoot til the ammo is gone (then drink beer).

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Lee440
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#332197 - 11/09/19 11:52 AM

Mike, I have a pair of Vickers .318 express rifles that are dead ringers for yours. #3509 and 4069. The bolt handles are nicely turned down military handles. I bought the first one from Thad Scott back in the early eighties and it shoots well and I took it to Tanzania for plains game. The other I bought from Cabelas and unfortunately, in its past, it had been rebored to 35 Whelen, most likely due to lack of .330 dia bullets. In an attempt to bring it back to its British roots, I rechambered it to 350 Rigby mag and it shoots well with 225 gr. Noslers. Congratulations on your rare bird! If I had seen it, I would have bought it in a heartbeat! Your rifle is in good hands with Steve, if you need pics of the bolt handles for accurate reproduction, drop me a PM. Lee.

Edited by Lee440 (12/09/19 12:31 AM)

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Lee440]
#332218 - 12/09/19 02:51 AM

Hello Lee,
Thanks for chiming in. The rifle is with Steve getting looked after; replacement bolt and sympathetic cosmetic restoration are underway. I’m looking forward to this old lady returning to her younger self.
Interesting that yours have serial numbers that bracket this .242
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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bouldersmith
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#336148 - 05/01/20 08:16 AM

Cleaned up and ready for marmot season. The bolt position was dictated by the factory stock relief.

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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93x64mm
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: bouldersmith]
#336149 - 05/01/20 08:39 AM

Yahoo.....now to see what she'll do!

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 93x64mm]
#336151 - 05/01/20 08:47 AM

Hope to get over to Steve's place to pick it up this coming week, depending upon weather.

Marmots.....almost as dangerous as the Monty Python "Killer Rabbit", will have my .577 along in case of a charge.
Right now my shooting spots are under about 2 feet of snow.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#336155 - 05/01/20 09:59 AM

Looks good Mike, looking forward to hearing how it shoots.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#336380 - 09/01/20 03:48 PM

She’s back home and looking every bit the classic “30’s Gal”. Unlike a real flesh and blood, this old lady has not aged a day!
Weather, internet, and IMGUR willIng I will post a couple of pictures later this week.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
#336446 - 11/01/20 02:57 PM

Quote:

in Springfield its Duff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqfLOJGS_7o

I just happen to have 1x Can of Duff Beer.
It was made here in Oz (Not under license), ........... until they were told by an American Legal Firm, told to stop.
I reckon James Boags, Premium Lager, make/is The Best beer on the planet.
I'm not by myself either, as it was voted Best Larger in the World, at least once.

As for the Vickers .242 - Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts!
And there is nothing new in the world.

Avagreatweekendeh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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NitroX
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#336448 - 11/01/20 03:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I’ve seen plenty of unmolested great conditon rifles drilled for a scope. I die a little inside each time.

I am of the same mind....sacrilege.
- Mike

An alternative view might be that if it allows some old rifles to actually be used, in the field, for hunting, to be fitted with a scope, then that is to the good. All these lovely old rifles filling gun safes, sometimes hundreds for a collector to me is a great shame as well.

Some hunters still can and do use open sights. Many today don't or can't. I dread the day, when I can no longer use open sights. So of my rifles, are ONLY open sights. And would need new examples to be acquired to allow modern optics of some sort to be substituted.

Some old vintage rifles, especially rook rifles and those of smaller calibre, such as .22's of sorts, do really benefit from having modern precise aiming sights available. In my youth I could crawl a hundred metres to shoot a rabbit in the head at 7 metres. Not so today.

Some hunters still can and do use open sights. Many today don't or can't. I dread the day, when I can no longer use open sights. So of my rifles, are ONLY open sights. And would need new examples to be acquired to allow modern optics of some sort to be substituted.

I saw on a recent thread the milling of unobstrusive grooves in the rear sight allowing a dot sight to be installed there. Now while the dot might be a star and not a nice round dot, regulative might not be affected too much. Allowing such rifles as my .450 No.2 NE to still be used. I still can use it, but have been told of severe future eye problems in a decade or two. Not looking forward to it. And will shooting of heavy recoiling firearms be possible after surgery one day? Must do as much as I can in the meantime. One never knows what happens tomorrow anyway.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Homer]
#336450 - 11/01/20 03:48 PM

Quote:

I just happen to have 1x Can of Duff Beer.
It was made here in Oz (Not under license), ........... until they were told by an American Legal Firm, told to stop.

It was made by the SA Brewing Company I believe. Now called Lion Nathan after a kiwi takeover, before they in turn were taken over by the Japs, Kirrin.

Duff Beer as made by SA Brewing, was not named after the Simpsons cartoon beer if I remember rightly. However the yanks threatened legal action for trademark infringement of a trademark class, ie beer, where they had never made any beer, never sold any beer, and never traded in beer in this trademark jurisdiction. A cartoon beer is not a real beer. However in TM matters money on legal bills matters and they withdrew their Duff Beer.

Does the Duff Beer have any Simpson's references on the packaging?

Quote:

I reckon James Boags, Premium Lager, make/is The Best beer on the planet.
I'm not by myself either, as it was voted Best Larger in the World, at least once.

I like James Boag Premium as well.

I also will buy Coopers Sparkling Ale or Pale Ale.

I wouldn't ever bother with a XXXX or Vic Vomit Bitter.

I also wouldn't bother with a Hahn, since they were no longer a boutique winery back in the 80's or 90's. Made by an American Brewer in Sydney, called Dr Chuck (Hahn) back then. Now it is mass produced swill.

I am being unpatriotic nowadays and enjoy a Danish Carlsberg.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: DarylS]
#336451 - 11/01/20 03:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What's the favourite beer in Aussie-land?

Among knowledgeable Aussies such as South Australians, Coopers Brewery is one of the better ones.

And while I make no claim to it being anything like a best, there is a famous named beer as well, "Hahn".

Of course, there is. Next spring, I should have a month or so to test out ALL of your claims.

Yes mate we can test a fair few. Don't think I will bother with a Hahn Beer though. I have a few bottles of the original, now maybe 30 years old. Any good still, do you think?

Not sure how a .242 Vickers thread got onto beer? Was there a Vickers Beer? There should have been!

Vickers Victory Beer!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#336824 - 21/01/20 01:37 PM

My little "Cogswell & Harrison, Ltd." marked .242 Vickers has come home from Steve Bertram's "beauty spa". http://www.bertramandco.com

Will have to wait for 2' of snow to melt before I can try it on targets.

Thinking of making up some outlaw labels for relabeling a local IPA...... ".242 Vickers Victory" (with proper attribution of intellectual property to Nitro John of course

)

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#336856 - 22/01/20 07:14 AM

Mike, what a great job you had done on that rifle. The restoration turned out perfectly as the rifle still looks original and period. Super job. It is always interesting as well when someone has a rifle in a cartridge that is different to all the normal ones. Looking forward to see how it shoots.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#336858 - 22/01/20 09:23 AM

Didn’t notice the stippling on the rear bridge before - nice touch and makes sense.

Lovely rifle!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Huvius]
#344687 - 31/08/20 09:33 AM

August 2020 update:
Late due the Wuhan virus follies.......etc.
Have sourced bullet drawing dies from Corbin and Lee to squeeze standard .25 caliber .257” bullets to fit.
Chose the Nosler 100 grain Accubond and Speer 100 spitzer flat base soft point for trials.

The rifle had to go back to Steve Bertram to have the throat deepened as current bullets sized down would not seat out to proper cartridge overall length. The rifle now has a nice target rifle grade throat and case necks only need a light reaming.
As there is no current or vintage ammo and no original Kynoch .242 bullets available I don’t consider this throat alteration to be of huge consequence to the original rifle and does allow it to be shot with modern components.

Weather permitting this week I’m going to work up a load with IMR 4350 and the 100 grain bullets to get close to the vintage advertised velocity of 2800’/sec.
This rifle has a 24” barrel and the original Kynoch advertised velocity was likely obtained with a 26” or 28” barrel so 2750’/sec might be a sweet spot.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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93x64mm
.416 member

Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3978
Loc: Nth QLD Australia

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#344692 - 31/08/20 05:19 PM

Fingers crossed for you 3DM, it will be rather interesting to see how this this old girl really goes.
I totally agree with what you had to do to make it work, virtually giving it a bit more 'freebore' so to speak, the chamber is still original so it is a win-win for you mate.
It would seem that with a larger case capacity than the .244 Rem, you should get easy 2800fps with the 100gn pills, but the proof will be in the pudding when comparing a 'preferred velocity to your sights.
Don't be surprised if you get a few 'sweet' spots along the way.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 93x64mm]
#344737 - 02/09/20 12:58 PM

50 Yards.....
The 1 5/8' group is offhand, the 3/8" group is over bags.
Loaded with .25 caliber Nosler 100 grain ballistic tip drawn to .254". Still slowly working loads up and these are at 2425'/sec.

The 2425'/sec took 40.5 grains of IMR4350 with no pressure signs so I will continue upping in .5 grain increments.

May try Reloader 19 at some stage. Hope to get 2750'-2800'/sec to duplicate original quoted velocities.

Truly a "blast from the past" as this rifle possibly has not been fired since the 1950's

- Mike

As an aside; this rifles first owner was one Ivan T. Sanderson. Quite a character I'm sure......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_T._Sanderson

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#344754 - 03/09/20 05:03 AM

Seems to shoot just fine, Mike.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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vykkagur
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#344755 - 03/09/20 05:44 AM

Quote:

Hope to get over to Steve's place to pick it up this coming week, depending upon weather.

Marmots.....almost as dangerous as the Monty Python "Killer Rabbit", will have my .577 along in case of a charge.
Right now my shooting spots are under about 2 feet of snow.
- Mike

Careful not to soil your armour!

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Waidmannsheil
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Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: vykkagur]
#344856 - 07/09/20 08:44 PM

Great Results Mike, that"s a really nice rifle that you have there.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#344867 - 08/09/20 02:58 AM

Quick update:
Achieved a solid 2837’sec 5 shot average with IMR4350 and 100 grain Speer pointed soft point, no excessive pressure signs.
Standard primer and 47.0 grains of IMR4350.

I wish I could bring myself to fire a couple of my original Kynoch that are loaded with 41.5 grains of whatever they used, I would be surprised if those original loads made advertised velocities

DISCLAIMER:
If you happen to have a spare .242 Vickers chambered rifle sitting around

please consider this load safe ONLY in my rifle.

- Mike

EDIT ADDED:
The sights are a standing marked 200 yards and one folding leaf marked 300 yards.
Using nominal velocity and ballistic coefficient assumptions and my altitude of 7500’ I will be looking for 1.3” high at 50 yards and ~2.2” high at 100 yards.
This is to be checked my next outing.

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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93x64mm
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#344892 - 08/09/20 10:01 PM

I hope that load is to your sights 3DM, not bad going if you don't mind me saying.
Greta to see good results with your sized pills.......damn fine if you ask me!
Time to use on a white tail or 3!

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Rockdoc
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 93x64mm]
#345794 - 14/10/20 07:18 AM

There is an elegant simplicity in an open sighted Mauser actioned rifle and yours is a beauty.

Look forward to hearing of more adventures with it.

Can you measure the size of your front sight bead when you get a chance please? I am finding front bead size matters as my ageing eyes struggle to see fine beads!

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Rockdoc]
#345795 - 14/10/20 09:55 AM

Rockdoc,
Will do that! No kidding about aging eyes.....I just turned 68

Right now the rifle is at Steve Bertram's getting a crack in the wood behind the tang fixed.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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HeymSR20
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#345843 - 16/10/20 08:11 PM

Nice rifle that seems to want to shoot well. And a very interesting first owner. Now if only these rifles could talk, as they shared many intimate moments with their owners. Imagine some of the campfire discussions!

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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: HeymSR20]
#368361 - 15/08/22 08:27 AM

Back to top,
Have heard from a member "Hendo" who hails from Australia, says he is in the process of getting a .242 Vickers. As a .242 Vickers owner he will be a member of a VERY small club indeed.

Perhaps he will eventually chime in with details of his rifle and the attendant "pleasures/adventures" (

) of making ammunition to get it shooting.

Cheers, Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroX
.700 member

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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
#368368 - 15/08/22 04:16 PM

Mike, thanks for redirecting this thread. Your rifle turned out very nicely. 100 gr bullet at 2800 fps, wow! Very effective.

It may have been mentioned already. But what is the true calibre of the .242 Vickers? .254, as you mentioned resizing bullets to?

Good news about Hendos rifle. I may get to see it. Hope so.

A .242 Vickers sounds like a nice vintage cartridge and rifle to have. An ideal rifle calibre class for most game in Australia.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#368369 - 15/08/22 04:18 PM

PS these need to be added to the unusual vintage calibres/rifles thread.

It is so much cooler to use a .242 Vickers than some unmentionable mass market new wannabe pretender!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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3DogMike
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1413
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
#368400 - 16/08/22 12:44 AM

Quote:

Mike, thanks for redirecting this thread. ……... But what is the true calibre of the .242 Vickers? .254, as you mentioned resizing bullets to?……..

The true calibre, ah now THAT is the $64,000 question!

The "bore" may have in fact been planned to be .242", while the groove diameter may have been hostage to various barrel makers machine tolerances in the rifling process?
As I mentioned, my old original ~1930's Kynoch ammunition has bullets of very long taper ogive and a base diameter of .2475"

Various sources claim barrel groove diameter of .249" to .253" while my rifle has a groove diameter of .255"
I don't have proper small diameter plug gauges to actually figure out my rifles true "bore diameter" at the top of the lands.

Sooooo…….I'd opine that calling it a .242 is as good as anything.
I would be curious to know how those original .2475" bullets shot out of my rifle with the .255" grooves with rifling that "may" be only .004" deep?
100 yard "minute of Blackbuck" accuracy? Bullets with thin jackets actually soft enough to slug up a bit in the barrel?

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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