Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Handguns

Pages: 1
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265
      #330297 - 19/07/19 08:48 PM

Recently I had the good fortune to buy an interesting DWM commercial Luger.

In his reference work, Lugers at Random, Charles Kenyon, Jr. classifies this variation as the “1920 Swiss.” (See pages 192-193 Revised Format Edition 1990).

Gortz & Sturgess do not use the same classifications as Kenyon; but they make mention of this particular configuration in their work, The Borchardt-Luger Pistols, in Chapter 10 with their discussion of “Post WWI DWM serial numbering” beginning on page 608 of Vol. 2 and continuing for several pages. Figure 10-22 on page 610 makes specific mention of this Swiss pattern.

In his sticky post on the Luger forum entitled, “Alphabet Commercial i suffix (long)” Dwight Gruber calls this the “New Model Swiss, c/N proofed."









Now let me describe this delightful pistol:

* It is a 1906 pattern built on a long frame.

* It has a 7.65mm barrel that measures a full 100mm long (not the typical 98mm of DWM barrels of this period).

* Over the chamber is the Swiss “Cross in Sunburst” crest.

* It bears German commercial Crown over N (upright) proofs, with the mark stamped on the receiver left side, the bottom of the barrel, and the front toggle link.

* There are no Swiss proof marks.

* There is no “GERMANY” stamp.

* The frame has no stock attachment lug, and there is no evidence of one being removed.

* The rear wall of the frame is reinforced.

* There is the "Circled N" inspector’s mark stamped in the forward frame well.

* The front sight is of the Swiss variety. The rear sight is the standard “V” notch, unaltered.

* The firing pin is un-numbered and un-fluted.

* It bears serial number 2652i, which dates it after mid-1921 when DWM changed to letter suffixed commercial serial numbers. Some authorities believe this new system began with s/n 2001i, noting that this would seamlessly progress from the end of 5-digit numbering at 92000. On the other hand, Gortz & Sturgess opine that the series begins with s/n 1i, given that pistols with numbers below 2001i are observed. Whatever the case, mine has its number which is somewhat low in the “i” series. The serial number with letter suffix appears at the front of the frame.






* The four numerical digits are stamped on the side of the receiver in military fashion. Accordingly, no number appears on the stop lug.






* Other small parts are stamped with the last two digits in the “commercial” numbering locations. These include the sideplate, takedown latch, trigger, rear toggle, and holdopen. The barrel is not numbered, nor the grip safety, grip panels, front toggle link, breech block, rear toggle pin, sear bar, safety lever, extractor, or firing pin.











I think it's a nice post-WWI DWM Alphabet Commercial; one that is not often seen.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (25/07/19 08:20 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: CptCurl]
      #330299 - 19/07/19 11:43 PM

My father-in-law has a substantial collection of Luger's..will have to show him this..sure he will find it interesting..

He also has a large collection of WW1 and WW2 military arms, equipement, etc..been collecting it for over 50 years..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: Ripp]
      #330382 - 22/07/19 01:55 AM

I think this pistols were made be using the tons of parts still on stock from WW 1 mass produktion. the stock attachment lug was maybe there before but milled away for making a "swiss" model and the grip safety was easy to add.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: lancaster]
      #330390 - 22/07/19 06:05 AM

Fantastic piece there Cap!
Certainly a collector's piece, enjoy your new addition!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: lancaster]
      #330393 - 22/07/19 10:15 AM

Quote:

I think this pistols were made be using the tons of parts still on stock from WW 1 mass produktion. the stock attachment lug was maybe there before but milled away for making a "swiss" model and the grip safety was easy to add.




That's true for a lot of the post-WWI production, but not for this particular pistol. It's made on a long frame. The war production was only short frames. There would be no surplus long frames.

You are correct that some of the post-WWI Lugers made on the 1906 pattern had the stock lug milled off. On those it is obvious.

Here's one built on a short frame that obviously had the stock lug milled off:







And another:






Here's one with a short frame, an added grip safety, with the stock lug still intact:





The above photos are from the Simpson, Ltd. website.





Finally, here is a scan of the entry in Lugers at Random by Charles Kenyon, Jr. Notice the distinction he makes between those pistols built on a short frame and those built on a long frame.




"Those examples with a long frame/receiver appear to be of new manufacture and are of the highest quality."

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: CptCurl]
      #330452 - 23/07/19 01:46 PM

Quote:



Here's one built on a short frame that obviously had the stock lug milled off:








yes, this is obvious but I cant understand why it was not completly sand back. must have been hard times!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: lancaster]
      #330481 - 23/07/19 11:38 PM

I think the frame gets pretty thin back there. Notice the other one is flattened to the point it almost lost its curvature:




Still, you can see remnants of the milled stock attachment slots if you look carefully.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: CptCurl]
      #330520 - 25/07/19 01:31 AM

its obvious but before the great war such a pistol had not pass the quality control

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39066
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - Swiss Alphabet No. 265 [Re: CptCurl]
      #330542 - 25/07/19 02:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think this pistols were made be using the tons of parts still on stock from WW 1 mass produktion. the stock attachment lug was maybe there before but milled away for making a "swiss" model and the grip safety was easy to add.







Here's one with a short frame, an added grip safety, with the stock lug still intact:








Stupid question, but I have never handled a Luger.

Is that a grip safety on the rear of the grip? Does it need to be depressed by the web of the thumb for the Luger to fire?

I am guessing the answers are yes. Did not know this about the Luger. Seems a very modern feature from such an old design.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - No. 2652i [Re: NitroX]
      #330566 - 25/07/19 09:08 PM

Quote:

Stupid question, but I have never handled a Luger.

Is that a grip safety on the rear of the grip? Does it need to be depressed by the web of the thumb for the Luger to fire?

I am guessing the answers are yes. Did not know this about the Luger. Seems a very modern feature from such an old design.




Yes. The safety must be depressed by the web of the hand. As you probably noticed, there is also a manual safety lever, the purpose of which is to lock the grip safety in its rear position.

Here's a short history of the grip safety in the Luger pistol:

The grip safety was a feature of the original Borchardt-Luger design and appears on the 1900 Model Lugers (the Old Model). I gave a detailed photo array of my 1900 Model Luger at this link:

Luger - DWM 1900 American Eagle - 7.65mm

Beginning in 1904 the Luger design was improved. It's flat leaf mainspring was replaced with a coil spring, along with several other changes. The culmination of this design change became what collectors refer to as the "New Model Luger" or the Model of 1906. This model retained the grip safety, and it is the pattern of the Luger featured in my original post.

In 1908 the German Army adopted the Luger; but in doing so, the army specified elimination of the grip safety to simplify the design and save some cost. This became the ubiquitous P.08. Millions of Lugers were made on this pattern.

So, in photos, here is the progression:

Model 1900 (Old Model)








Model 1906 (New Model)








Model 1908 (P.08)







Even after adoption of the P.08 some purchasers preferred the 1906 pattern with grip safety, so DWM continued this design in manufacture. The Swiss preferred this design. Pistols manufactured both for the Swiss military and for Swiss commercial sale were of the 1906 pattern with grip safety. Later, when the Swiss were licensed to manufacture Luger pistols in Bern, the pistols they built all featured a grip safety.

All this gets back to the subject of my original post. Part of the reason this "1920 Swiss" Luger is of interest to collectors arises from its context.

Under the Treaty of Paris the Wiemar government was severely restricted in the production of arms. In particular, the restrictions prohibited arms that would be useful to military application. Pistols were generally limited to smaller calibers with barrels no longer than 98mm.

As Lancaster pointed out, most DWM Luger production of the early 1920s was made up of surplus parts on hand after the war or of re-worked military Lugers. These were presented to the world markets. They varied greatly in quality of workmanship, reflecting the desperate hardships of the times.

This particular Luger was made of newly manufactured parts. The "long frame and receiver" had not been in production for some time. (I'll not get into the distinction of "long frame" compared to "short frame"). Here is a 1906 pattern Luger, with a 100mm barrel, built on a long frame soon after 1921. All-in-all, that makes it a very interesting variety.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39066
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - No. 2652i [Re: CptCurl]
      #330568 - 25/07/19 09:56 PM

Thanks. Makes sense as most I have seen have been P08s.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Luger: New Model Swiss, c/N Proofed - No. 2652i [Re: NitroX]
      #330771 - 01/08/19 05:59 PM

Quote:

Thanks. Makes sense as most I have seen have been P08s.




A good Luger 'primer': Book



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 13 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  NitroX 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4669

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved