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DonZ
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M1910 Finally here (and some questions)!
      #329678 - 27/06/19 06:47 AM

Long story short, I finally have my M1910 carbine here with me in Stuttgart. It's been a "process", but I had a lot of fun stripping it and cleaning it tonight. This leads to some questions:

1. (And most important) Does anyone know where in Germany I can get some ammunition for this? I have 25 Kynoch rounds that I left in the US, and my reloading equipment does me no good here (licensing issues). If anyone knows a source, that would be awesome. I've been on the Kynoch web site, and the closest dealer listed apparently has a bad web site address that is not coming up. Perhaps a shipment from Austria? Other sources?

B. I thought I remembered how to take down the firing pin, but I'm doing something wrong. This bolt has a diopter (perhaps a Lyman? I need to take a photo). Do I need to do anything different? There is a small screw, but I did not loosen it. I haven't decided if I like the diopter or not, but it folds out of the way, so no big deal.

III. And now the real mystery. I had thought taking it down would answer some questions, but to my surprise, I could not find a proof mark. I acquired the rifle in the US, were exported rifles not proofed? On the bottom of the receiver, I found a few stamps, but nothing that looked like a proof mark. On the barrel and the receiver are the serial number: 678. On top of the receiver, "Patent, Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1910". Also on the bottom of the barrel and receiver is the number "0". to the right of the 0 is a T in a circle, which research tells me means that the receiver was made from Crucible Steel. Where the receiver hits the "magazine well" (for lack of a better term) is a G in a circle, but I'm not sure what to make of that. The "0", coupled with the three digit serial number leads me to believe it was manufactured in 1910, but that may be jumping to a conclusion. I really expected to see a proof mark, coupled with the proof date. Thoughts?

I'll try and get some photos tomorrow. I have a Rothirsch hunt scheduled in Poland in September, so the ammo issue is most pressing.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329679 - 27/06/19 07:17 AM

I assume it is a 9.5x57?

One (or more) of our EU members has experience with it, and may be able to answer the availability of loaded ammo question.

I'll drop one of the members a link to your query.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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xausa
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: NitroX]
      #329680 - 27/06/19 08:00 AM

When I got my Model 1910 last year, I made up some ammunition using 8X57 cases and Speer 230 grain .375 caliber bullets. I got to try it out during deer season, and to my utter amazement, I ended up getting two deer with one shot. The story is too long to tell here, but suffice it to say that the cartridge is quite lethal.

Maybe kuduae or lancaster will have something to say about the ammunition situation.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329681 - 27/06/19 09:39 AM

Quote:


1. (And most important) Does anyone know where in Germany I can get some ammunition for this? I have 25 Kynoch rounds that I left in the US, and my reloading equipment does me no good here (licensing issues). If anyone knows a source, that would be awesome. I've been on the Kynoch web site, and the closest dealer listed apparently has a bad web site address that is not coming up. Perhaps a shipment from Austria? Other sources?

B. I thought I remembered how to take down the firing pin, but I'm doing something wrong. This bolt has a diopter (perhaps a Lyman? I need to take a photo). Do I need to do anything different? There is a small screw, but I did not loosen it. I haven't decided if I like the diopter or not, but it folds out of the way, so no big deal.






1) Member Kuduae (Axel Eichendorff) is a Saxon Forester and uses am M1910 on the job. Surely he knows of Deutsche ammo resources.

2) Bolt disassembly:



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Rothhammer1
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329683 - 27/06/19 10:43 AM

Quote:



III. And now the real mystery. I had thought taking it down would answer some questions, but to my surprise, I could not find a proof mark. I acquired the rifle in the US, were exported rifles not proofed? On the bottom of the receiver, I found a few stamps, but nothing that looked like a proof mark. On the barrel and the receiver are the serial number: 678. On top of the receiver, "Patent, Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1910". Also on the bottom of the barrel and receiver is the number "0". to the right of the 0 is a T in a circle, which research tells me means that the receiver was made from Crucible Steel. Where the receiver hits the "magazine well" (for lack of a better term) is a G in a circle, but I'm not sure what to make of that. The "0", coupled with the three digit serial number leads me to believe it was manufactured in 1910, but that may be jumping to a conclusion. I really expected to see a proof mark, coupled with the proof date. Thoughts?




Your Mannlicher Schõnauer M1910 should have proof marks, either Austrian or German. Remember, Austria was 'annexed' by Germany in 1938, hence MS rifles and carbines (stutzen) manufactured during the 'Anschluss' of 1938 - 45 bear German proofs, all others Austrian. Arms imported through England generally had British proofs added.

These are Austrian proofs on a Mannlicher Schönauer:


On this example, the stylized 'Npv' indicates that it was proofed at Vienna, 711.07 indicates the 711th arm proofed at Vienna in 1907. C 9.0 indicates bore of 9mm (M1905).

German proof mark indicating a 1939 proof, 6.7mm (M1903) Note that it also bears the Npv and script EV of Vienna. It may have been built pre Anschluss and later reproofed:







If your receiver is marked thus, it was manufactured no later than 1926:



During 1926, the name of the firm was changed to Steyr Werke AG.

If the receiver ring is stamped 'Made in Austria', your MS was manufactured between 1924 - 1938 or after mid - 1945. If stamped 'Made in Germany' it was built during the 1938 - 45 occupation of Austria, If neither, it was mfd. no later than 1924:


1924 - 1938


1938 - 1945


1900 - 1924


Hope this helps!

--------------------
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DonZ
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #329684 - 27/06/19 01:52 PM

NitroX, thank you, yes. 9.5X57.

Rothhammer, thank you. Yes, I remember taking down the bolt that way in my M1903 (made in Germany (as stamped on the receiver) in 1939 (based on the proof mark).

The problem with pressing down on the head of the bolt is that is where the diopter sight is. There is nowhere to press. I will post a photo tonight.

The receiver is NOT stamped "Made in Austria", so before 1924. Also, stamped "Oesterr. WaffenFabr. -Ges Steyr", so before 1926.

No proof mark of any type visible. I had expected to see the NPV stamp from Vienna, or perhaps the NPF from Ferlach, but neither was there. Just the circle G (?), Circle T ("Tiegelgussstahl"), and the "0" on barrel and receiver. I will post a photo tonight.

Thank you all.

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Louis
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329700 - 28/06/19 03:08 AM

DonZ, with regards to CIP newly manufactured ammunition I know of only one option, which should be available through your local rifle smith:
Dorfner ammunition, from Vienna (Austria), see https://www.waffen-dorfner.at/seltene-buchsenpatronen/ . Excellent ammunition that I use for all the range of MS proprietary calibers. In case you couldn't find a rifle smith willing to import them in Stuttgart, I could put you in contact with my supplier in North East France (Alsace, near Strassburg, not such distant from your location) that may supply. Dorfner 9,5x57 MS come in 17,5 grams Teilmantel; c. Euro 110 or 120 per box of 20 rounds.
Good luck with your hunt in Poland.
Louis

--------------------
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DonZ
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Louis]
      #329707 - 28/06/19 01:43 PM

Somehow, my post last night didn't post, so I'll try again.

Louis, thank you. I think that will work perfectly, and there are a couple of places I can check here this weekend. Worst case, I need a trip to Vienna! Strassburg would work, too.

I took some photos, but forgot how to post them at my ISP, so I will work on that. Long story short, I got the bolt apart, and it really needed it. Not sure what was previously used to lube it or act as a rust preventative, but whatever it was, it had turned almost solid. Cleaning it will be a several day task, and I'll let soaking in cleaners do most of the work.

There is a set screw on the firing pin nut that registers the diopter. That must come out first. Once that was out, all was easy.

I'll get some photos up soon. Thanks again to all.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329713 - 29/06/19 12:44 AM

Quote:

I took some photos, but forgot how to post them at my ISP, so I will work on that.






This works: Post Photos to NE

Glad to hear of the bolt progress. Sounds like another fine old MS has found a good home.

BTW; the " circle G (?), Circle T ("Tiegelgussstahl"), and the "0" on barrel and receiver." marks may be as follows; 'circle G' is, I think, an inspector's mark from Steyr. I believe you're right about the 'circle I', and the zero on barrel and on receiver may be indications of chamber depth / headspace. My M1910 is marked '+15, -15'. Members Kuduae and Lancaster know these details better than I.



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DonZ
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #329925 - 09/07/19 04:50 AM

So let's see if this works.

Edit. It did not work. For some reason, the photos are showing up full size, and not at the 25% size I had thought I'd set them too. Also, the first photo worked, the other two did not. So I will just post the links until I figure out what I am doing wrong!

First is the action. This is the only side that has any stamp marks, and as you can see no proof. I thought it would not leave the Austro-Hungarian Empire without them?

http://www.saintpanzer.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/M1910-Action-1.jpg

Note also the 3 digit serial number. Same number under the bolt handle, and stamped inside the stock.

Here is the diopter sight. I haven't decided if I like it yet. My [older] eyes do need the help, but if you work the action while still snapped in, it gets danger close to your eye. Oh, and I thought you'd never ask, it has a 14.5 inch (about 365mm) length of pull. I would actually prefer that to be cut down to a 13.5 inch, but then, with the diopter down, you'd definitely poke yourself in the eye. But I'm not sure I'd like to try running boar with the diopter up.


http://www.saintpanzer.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Diopter.jpeg

And here is that pesky little setscrew you need to remove in order to field strip the bolt.

http://www.saintpanzer.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Setscrew.jpeg




--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

Edited by DonZ (09/07/19 04:54 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329994 - 10/07/19 10:40 PM

You don't see any proofmarks on your rifle, no wonder at all. The proofmarks are usually on the barrel reinforce of Mannlicher – Schoenauers. As your photo shows, there is obviously a ring soldered around that area, covering any such marks. Your rifle was once mounted with a scope, that ring holding the front base.

The serial number 849 makes it a very early M1910.


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DonZ
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: kuduae]
      #330002 - 11/07/19 03:35 AM

Thank you Kuduae, that makes sense. I did not realize that was a band.

And, to be clear, yes, 849 is a low number, but with respect, that is upside down. The actual number is 678! I'm assuming very early production.

Still waiting to hear from my local store if they have successfully ordered ammo from Austria. I may have to contact Dorfner directly.

Thank you again.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330018 - 11/07/19 09:06 PM

Quote:


Here is the diopter sight.








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Rothhammer1
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: kuduae]
      #330020 - 11/07/19 09:17 PM

Quote:

You don't see any proofmarks on your rifle, no wonder at all. The proofmarks are usually on the barrel reinforce of Mannlicher – Schoenauers. As your photo shows, there is obviously a ring soldered around that area, covering any such marks. Your rifle was once mounted with a scope, that ring holding the front base.




Shouldn't the proof house number indicating the year of proof (and sequence within) have been stamped on both barrel reinforce and on the receiver as with the 411 . 08 on this example?



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DonZ
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Louis]
      #330618 - 27/07/19 04:27 AM

Quote:

DonZ, with regards to CIP newly manufactured ammunition I know of only one option, which should be available through your local rifle smith:
Dorfner ammunition, from Vienna (Austria), see https://www.waffen-dorfner.at/seltene-buchsenpatronen/ . Excellent ammunition that I use for all the range of MS proprietary calibers. In case you couldn't find a rifle smith willing to import them in Stuttgart, I could put you in contact with my supplier in North East France (Alsace, near Strassburg, not such distant from your location) that may supply. Dorfner 9,5x57 MS come in 17,5 grams Teilmantel; c. Euro 110 or 120 per box of 20 rounds.
Good luck with your hunt in Poland.
Louis




Louis,

I just wanted to thank you again. My local shop was able to contact Dorfner, and I now have enough to BZO and hunt. If I save the brass I should be able to find someone to help me reload.

I was also able to source 10 rounds of Kynoch on eGun. Not sure their age, which makes me a little nervous, and they are probably corrosive primers. They are also solid (full metal jacket), so if I do fire them, they will probably be for target.

I haven't found headspace gauges, and that's probably a bridge too far. Using shims, I think it's between .004 and .008, so I should be OK.

Thanks again everyone for all your help! Range report to come when I can get to the range.

--------------------
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Rothhammer1
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330628 - 27/07/19 06:46 PM

Quote:

If I save the brass I should be able to find someone to help me reload.







Be certain to build your 9.5X57 cartridges as close as possible to the dimensions of original factory loads for smooth loading and function. I'd save five of the Kynoch rounds for reference (or find some DWM 531).

Though nothing is smoother than a properly fed Schönauer magazine, those prior to the M1924 can be rather particular regarding length and profile of cartridges and may jam if your projectiles are too short overall, seated too deeply, or too narrow near the top third.

Build them like this and they'll run through like melted butter:



Sadly, the Hornady 3715 projectile (.375 270 grain round nose), is no longer available. It fit the M1910 Schönauer magazine almost perfectly and was economical. If you run across any Hornady 3715 you'll probably want to buy them. Woodleigh has solids that are of correct size, weight, and profile at a higher cost. If you find another source for .375 270 grain round nose, do tell the rest of us!


Hornady 3715 (.375 - 270g RN), Original DWM 531.

Here's how DWM 531 was loaded in 1935:









Kynoch still does limited runs from time to time - very expensive. Quality Cartridge (U.S.) now manufactures fresh, properly headstamped brass for the 9.5X57 (.375 RNE) at a reasonable price.

Brass for the M1910 can also be easily formed from .35 Whelen. The Whelen has a higher shoulder than the 9.5X57, so the dies push it down to the proper location. Avoid using other _X57 brass to reform unless you're going to draw it straight first. Simply reforming _X57 brass in 9.5X57 dies will leave the shorter, narrower shoulders of the other X57 cartridges untouched.




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Daryl_S
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #330630 - 28/07/19 03:31 AM

When making brass up, one should neck them straight, THEN neck down to hold the bullet, placing the shoulder at the appropriate location. This will produce a case that is as close as any factory loaded round for this calibre.
As noted before, the 9.5x57's case dimensions, with the .468' base and .455" shoulder, virtually match the Ackley Improved 57mm case.
This is likely beyond a non-loader to comprehend.

Here is the case making sequence, but in this instance, I am using .30/06 brass, which is 63/4mm long, not 57mm. It is the same process.
The second case, is a .30/06 (or .35 Whelen) case necked straight. The third case is straight case necked to position the shoulder in the correct location. The 4th case is the necked case fireformed. The last two cases are freshly loaded ammo with 270gr. Barnes TSX and 300gr.Hornady Interbond bullets.



I used the same process for making brass for my 9.3x57, although I used 8x57 brass. Note the 9.3x57 has a small shoulder diameter of around .440".




This came up on a google search. Interesting as it is a post by me, many years ago on another forum about loading the 9.3x57.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=76602

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Daryl


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DonZ
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #330631 - 28/07/19 03:36 AM

Thank you.

I'm always on the look out for Hornady... but I really like the Woodleighs.

Separate topic on the Woodleighs: I tried their 6.5mm Protected Point in my 1903. For a spitzer bullet, they fed well, but I was having serious over-pressure issues that I haven't figured out. I may have been under-charged, and I may have not trimmed the brass enough. I don't think I over-did the roll crimp, and I don't think I loaded long and went all the way to seating the bullet on the lands. I should have a chamber cast done. That's going to have to wait. For the record, that rifle was made in '39, and is also very finicky on COL.

The last time Midway had a sale on the Kynoch, I bought several boxes, but they are still in the US, waiting for my return. Ditto on Qual-Cart. That's on my list, but a bridge too far right now.

I ran my unknown-date Kynochs through without the firing pin in the rifle, and melted butter is correct. The same is true of the Dorfners.

I will need dies, and I'll probably go with 4D.

Next step is to get the Dorfner bullets to the range, with my LabRadar, so I can work up ballistics tables. Hornady has a great calculator.

I don't know what else I can do to check the rifle before firing. From my research, too much headspace is less dangerous than too much, so that checked out. Biggest concern left is the unknown Kynochs. I don't think the old powder is dangerous. More likely they'll have too little bang rather than too much, so I guess I'll just have to try.

Only other change I want to make to the rifle is I'd like to find a DST for it, but that is NOT critical. I will probably take it to Poland with me, and if the Red Deer is close enough that my old eyes still work, I'll use that instead of the scoped rifle. I think...

Thanks again for everyone's help.

--------------------
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Daryl_S
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330632 - 28/07/19 03:45 AM

The 235gr. Speer is another great bullet for the .375's as well as when sized down for the 9.3's.

Good luck, Don.

--------------------
Daryl


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93x64mm
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330637 - 28/07/19 07:35 AM

Quote:


Separate topic on the Woodleighs: I tried their 6.5mm Protected Point in my 1903. For a spitzer bullet, they fed well, but I was having serious over-pressure issues that I haven't figured out.




Don, if you're going to get a cast of your chamber I would still do a bore slug check as well, even though the casting should verify 99% of the issues!

On a second note what is your particular load?
I have an issue with a 7x64mm, my first rifle in that calibre initial brass was a lot lighter than the Norma brass I have now for my 'newer' rifle so I've had to dial it back quite a bit!
Check your brass, if there is a fair variation then this could also be an issue - always try & have one brand of brass for a particular rifle, any new cases...check them against the originals before loading your standard load!


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eagle27
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: 93x64mm]
      #330643 - 28/07/19 09:20 AM

I can give you the date of manufacture of your Kynoch ammo if you give the stamped code on the box and if Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI) or Imperial Metal Industries (IMI) is printed on the back of the packet. Kynoch repeated their date coding after 1952 so need to know the place of manufacture. Often Kynoch indicated on the box if primers were corrosive or non-corrosive but knowing the date will also indicate if likely to be non-corrosive priming.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330646 - 28/07/19 10:28 AM

Quote:



Only other change I want to make to the rifle is I'd like to find a DST for it, but that is NOT critical. I will probably take it to Poland with me, and if the Red Deer is close enough that my old eyes still work, I'll use that instead of the scoped rifle. I think...

Thanks again for everyone's help.




A double set trigger, you say?

Here's one on Ebay, complete, for a mere $765 USD, 'marked down' from $900.

Ebay

It's only money?



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Waidmannsheil
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330650 - 28/07/19 12:11 PM

Don, I have the CH4D dies for my 9.5x57MS, they are good and they also includes an expander which brings the neck up to parallel, however doing it in one pass is too much IMO. I would have another slightly smaller expander made to increase the neck in two steps, that is what I have done. I also had the expander coated in a titanium nitride coating, this one is called Zenit. It is a proprietary coating from the German company Guhring who are the worlds biggest manufacturers of carbide drills. Zenit has the lowest coefficient of friction in the range that I can get here in Australia. In the US Guhring has several other coatings with an even lower coefficient of friction. I coat all the expander buttons on the die sets with such and you can feel the difference and see it as well as the necks have no marks at all inside after sizing. Just make sure that you polish the ball to a very high finish before coating.

Matt.

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DonZ
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #330659 - 28/07/19 05:57 PM

Matt,
When you say that the expander doing it in one pass is too much, are you referring to re-sizing brass from another rifle, or do you mean any time, including correct 9.5X57 brass?

Eagle27, the stamp on the back is very faded, it looks like 15 something (could be an X) J G. Definitely ICI.

93X64, Thank you for asking, I will start a separate thread.

Rothammer1, yes, it's only money... and no way USPS or DHS breaks DoS regulations on shipping firearms parts out of the country. Final cost on that piece of gear would be far higher. 450 euro here, I just need to learn if there are differences between the post 1950 triggers and the pre-war. I don't think there are, but worth asking.

http://mannlich-schönauer.com/epages/756...8c3/Products/26

I'd love to scope the rifle as well, the complication there being getting something period appropriate. Just for fun, who thinks there's be a (small) market in making scopes that have modern lenses, o-rings, pressurized gas, in ¾ inch tubes that look correct for older rifles?

--------------------
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Louis
.333 member


Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 415
Loc: France
Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330661 - 28/07/19 06:45 PM

Don, my pleasure, it was a pleasure to help, this is the purpose of this forum. I am sure you will be pleased with Dorfner ammunition; buying modern Kynoch makes no sense for me as they are ludicrously expensive and most of the time not available in stock.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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