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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 64
Loc: BW
M1910 Finally here (and some questions)!
      #329678 - 27/06/19 06:47 AM

Long story short, I finally have my M1910 carbine here with me in Stuttgart. It's been a "process", but I had a lot of fun stripping it and cleaning it tonight. This leads to some questions:

1. (And most important) Does anyone know where in Germany I can get some ammunition for this? I have 25 Kynoch rounds that I left in the US, and my reloading equipment does me no good here (licensing issues). If anyone knows a source, that would be awesome. I've been on the Kynoch web site, and the closest dealer listed apparently has a bad web site address that is not coming up. Perhaps a shipment from Austria? Other sources?

B. I thought I remembered how to take down the firing pin, but I'm doing something wrong. This bolt has a diopter (perhaps a Lyman? I need to take a photo). Do I need to do anything different? There is a small screw, but I did not loosen it. I haven't decided if I like the diopter or not, but it folds out of the way, so no big deal.

III. And now the real mystery. I had thought taking it down would answer some questions, but to my surprise, I could not find a proof mark. I acquired the rifle in the US, were exported rifles not proofed? On the bottom of the receiver, I found a few stamps, but nothing that looked like a proof mark. On the barrel and the receiver are the serial number: 678. On top of the receiver, "Patent, Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1910". Also on the bottom of the barrel and receiver is the number "0". to the right of the 0 is a T in a circle, which research tells me means that the receiver was made from Crucible Steel. Where the receiver hits the "magazine well" (for lack of a better term) is a G in a circle, but I'm not sure what to make of that. The "0", coupled with the three digit serial number leads me to believe it was manufactured in 1910, but that may be jumping to a conclusion. I really expected to see a proof mark, coupled with the proof date. Thoughts?

I'll try and get some photos tomorrow. I have a Rothirsch hunt scheduled in Poland in September, so the ammo issue is most pressing.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 28956
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329679 - 27/06/19 07:17 AM

I assume it is a 9.5x57?

One (or more) of our EU members has experience with it, and may be able to answer the availability of loaded ammo question.

I'll drop one of the members a link to your query.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: NitroX]
      #329680 - 27/06/19 08:00 AM

When I got my Model 1910 last year, I made up some ammunition using 8X57 cases and Speer 230 grain .375 caliber bullets. I got to try it out during deer season, and to my utter amazement, I ended up getting two deer with one shot. The story is too long to tell here, but suffice it to say that the cartridge is quite lethal.

Maybe kuduae or lancaster will have something to say about the ammunition situation.


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329681 - 27/06/19 09:39 AM

Quote:


1. (And most important) Does anyone know where in Germany I can get some ammunition for this? I have 25 Kynoch rounds that I left in the US, and my reloading equipment does me no good here (licensing issues). If anyone knows a source, that would be awesome. I've been on the Kynoch web site, and the closest dealer listed apparently has a bad web site address that is not coming up. Perhaps a shipment from Austria? Other sources?

B. I thought I remembered how to take down the firing pin, but I'm doing something wrong. This bolt has a diopter (perhaps a Lyman? I need to take a photo). Do I need to do anything different? There is a small screw, but I did not loosen it. I haven't decided if I like the diopter or not, but it folds out of the way, so no big deal.






1) Member Kuduae (Axel Eichendorff) is a Saxon Forester and uses am M1910 on the job. Surely he knows of Deutsche ammo resources.

2) Bolt disassembly:



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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329683 - 27/06/19 10:43 AM

Quote:



III. And now the real mystery. I had thought taking it down would answer some questions, but to my surprise, I could not find a proof mark. I acquired the rifle in the US, were exported rifles not proofed? On the bottom of the receiver, I found a few stamps, but nothing that looked like a proof mark. On the barrel and the receiver are the serial number: 678. On top of the receiver, "Patent, Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1910". Also on the bottom of the barrel and receiver is the number "0". to the right of the 0 is a T in a circle, which research tells me means that the receiver was made from Crucible Steel. Where the receiver hits the "magazine well" (for lack of a better term) is a G in a circle, but I'm not sure what to make of that. The "0", coupled with the three digit serial number leads me to believe it was manufactured in 1910, but that may be jumping to a conclusion. I really expected to see a proof mark, coupled with the proof date. Thoughts?




Your Mannlicher Schơnauer M1910 should have proof marks, either Austrian or German. Remember, Austria was 'annexed' by Germany in 1938, hence MS rifles and carbines (stutzen) manufactured during the 'Anschluss' of 1938 - 45 bear German proofs, all others Austrian. Arms imported through England generally had British proofs added.

These are Austrian proofs on a Mannlicher Schönauer:


On this example, the stylized 'Npv' indicates that it was proofed at Vienna, 711.07 indicates the 711th arm proofed at Vienna in 1907. C 9.0 indicates bore of 9mm (M1905).

German proof mark indicating a 1939 proof, 6.7mm (M1903) Note that it also bears the Npv and script EV of Vienna. It may have been built pre Anschluss and later reproofed:







If your receiver is marked thus, it was manufactured no later than 1926:



During 1926, the name of the firm was changed to Steyr Werke AG.

If the receiver ring is stamped 'Made in Austria', your MS was manufactured between 1924 - 1938 or after mid - 1945. If stamped 'Made in Germany' it was built during the 1938 - 45 occupation of Austria, If neither, it was mfd. no later than 1924:


1924 - 1938


1938 - 1945


1900 - 1924


Hope this helps!

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 64
Loc: BW
Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #329684 - 27/06/19 01:52 PM

NitroX, thank you, yes. 9.5X57.

Rothhammer, thank you. Yes, I remember taking down the bolt that way in my M1903 (made in Germany (as stamped on the receiver) in 1939 (based on the proof mark).

The problem with pressing down on the head of the bolt is that is where the diopter sight is. There is nowhere to press. I will post a photo tonight.

The receiver is NOT stamped "Made in Austria", so before 1924. Also, stamped "Oesterr. WaffenFabr. -Ges Steyr", so before 1926.

No proof mark of any type visible. I had expected to see the NPV stamp from Vienna, or perhaps the NPF from Ferlach, but neither was there. Just the circle G (?), Circle T ("Tiegelgussstahl"), and the "0" on barrel and receiver. I will post a photo tonight.

Thank you all.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329700 - 28/06/19 03:08 AM

DonZ, with regards to CIP newly manufactured ammunition I know of only one option, which should be available through your local rifle smith:
Dorfner ammunition, from Vienna (Austria), see https://www.waffen-dorfner.at/seltene-buchsenpatronen/ . Excellent ammunition that I use for all the range of MS proprietary calibers. In case you couldn't find a rifle smith willing to import them in Stuttgart, I could put you in contact with my supplier in North East France (Alsace, near Strassburg, not such distant from your location) that may supply. Dorfner 9,5x57 MS come in 17,5 grams Teilmantel; c. Euro 110 or 120 per box of 20 rounds.
Good luck with your hunt in Poland.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Louis]
      #329707 - 28/06/19 01:43 PM

Somehow, my post last night didn't post, so I'll try again.

Louis, thank you. I think that will work perfectly, and there are a couple of places I can check here this weekend. Worst case, I need a trip to Vienna! Strassburg would work, too.

I took some photos, but forgot how to post them at my ISP, so I will work on that. Long story short, I got the bolt apart, and it really needed it. Not sure what was previously used to lube it or act as a rust preventative, but whatever it was, it had turned almost solid. Cleaning it will be a several day task, and I'll let soaking in cleaners do most of the work.

There is a set screw on the firing pin nut that registers the diopter. That must come out first. Once that was out, all was easy.

I'll get some photos up soon. Thanks again to all.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329713 - 29/06/19 12:44 AM

Quote:

I took some photos, but forgot how to post them at my ISP, so I will work on that.






This works: Post Photos to NE

Glad to hear of the bolt progress. Sounds like another fine old MS has found a good home.

BTW; the " circle G (?), Circle T ("Tiegelgussstahl"), and the "0" on barrel and receiver." marks may be as follows; 'circle G' is, I think, an inspector's mark from Steyr. I believe you're right about the 'circle I', and the zero on barrel and on receiver may be indications of chamber depth / headspace. My M1910 is marked '+15, -15'. Members Kuduae and Lancaster know these details better than I.



--------------------
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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 64
Loc: BW
Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #329925 - 09/07/19 04:50 AM

So let's see if this works.

Edit. It did not work. For some reason, the photos are showing up full size, and not at the 25% size I had thought I'd set them too. Also, the first photo worked, the other two did not. So I will just post the links until I figure out what I am doing wrong!

First is the action. This is the only side that has any stamp marks, and as you can see no proof. I thought it would not leave the Austro-Hungarian Empire without them?

http://www.saintpanzer.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/M1910-Action-1.jpg

Note also the 3 digit serial number. Same number under the bolt handle, and stamped inside the stock.

Here is the diopter sight. I haven't decided if I like it yet. My [older] eyes do need the help, but if you work the action while still snapped in, it gets danger close to your eye. Oh, and I thought you'd never ask, it has a 14.5 inch (about 365mm) length of pull. I would actually prefer that to be cut down to a 13.5 inch, but then, with the diopter down, you'd definitely poke yourself in the eye. But I'm not sure I'd like to try running boar with the diopter up.


http://www.saintpanzer.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Diopter.jpeg

And here is that pesky little setscrew you need to remove in order to field strip the bolt.

http://www.saintpanzer.com/photos/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Setscrew.jpeg




--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

Edited by DonZ (09/07/19 04:54 AM)


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kuduae
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #329994 - 10/07/19 10:40 PM

You don't see any proofmarks on your rifle, no wonder at all. The proofmarks are usually on the barrel reinforce of Mannlicher – Schoenauers. As your photo shows, there is obviously a ring soldered around that area, covering any such marks. Your rifle was once mounted with a scope, that ring holding the front base.

The serial number 849 makes it a very early M1910.


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DonZ
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Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 64
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: kuduae]
      #330002 - 11/07/19 03:35 AM

Thank you Kuduae, that makes sense. I did not realize that was a band.

And, to be clear, yes, 849 is a low number, but with respect, that is upside down. The actual number is 678! I'm assuming very early production.

Still waiting to hear from my local store if they have successfully ordered ammo from Austria. I may have to contact Dorfner directly.

Thank you again.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: DonZ]
      #330018 - 11/07/19 09:06 PM

Quote:


Here is the diopter sight.








--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 930
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: M1910 Finally here (and some questions)! [Re: kuduae]
      #330020 - 11/07/19 09:17 PM

Quote:

You don't see any proofmarks on your rifle, no wonder at all. The proofmarks are usually on the barrel reinforce of Mannlicher – Schoenauers. As your photo shows, there is obviously a ring soldered around that area, covering any such marks. Your rifle was once mounted with a scope, that ring holding the front base.




Shouldn't the proof house number indicating the year of proof (and sequence within) have been stamped on both barrel reinforce and on the receiver as with the 411 . 08 on this example?



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