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buckstix
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Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks
      #329391 - 15/06/19 02:42 PM

Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks

Hello All,

This forum is for "single shots" and "combination guns" - well I just bought one of each. (separate posts)

This is the first one. A Martini 577-450. First one of these I've ever owned.

Here are the specs of this rifle ....

28-3/4" Bbl - 14-1/4" LOP - 7 lbs 6 oz - Trap Butt - 2-Leaf Express Sight - Moon Flip-Over Front Sight -

I am interested in what all the markings mean .... best as I can describe, marks are as follows ...

"T.BLAND" on action - Bbl stamps "Crown / BP ? ?" .... "450" "1323" "45" "2054" "JG" "11.3" "*/AE" " "PJG" "EL" "JJH" - Assy No. 43 on forend, bbl, and action.

Not sure about the proof marks where the barrel joins the action ... looks like a crown over an italic BP but can't tell.

I don't know a thing about these, so any info would be appreciated ....

By the way, it came with a box of Kynoch Factory ammo, and this neat little insert for 45 long Colt and a full box of ammo.
























--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: buckstix]
      #329404 - 16/06/19 08:01 AM

You picked up a very niffy piece of kit there Buckstix!
DoubleD is the man to get these old ladies singing sweetly again & he might be able to assist with the cyphers on your rifle.

I've added in this from a MH site which shows the markings on military rifles - this obviously isn't but hopefully it may help?
http://www.martinihenry.org/index.php?route=product/category&path=61_66

The adaptor cartridge is a nifty piece too, just be careful when first using as they can stick due to how some of the chambers were cut - Douglas can explain a lot better than me!
I think he used a stiff bronze brush on a flexible rod to grab it should it do so.

I would still do the bore test to determine the grove diameter regardless
Still too busy to get out & give mine a lap, one day I'll get there!

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DoubleD
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329409 - 16/06/19 11:36 PM

Yes, I have commented on this gun over on GunBoards.

It is a Belguim made Martini. This board and the British Militaria board are the two best boards to come to, to have those marks read.

While I am reluctant to state emphatically, I doubt it has anything to do with Thomas Bland and Son's. Martini's came along after the firm became "& Son's".

I think this is similar to the guns imported into the US from Belgium in the late 1890's up to somewhere around WWI, primarily shotguns that bore deceptive makers marks. Most I have seen were W.Richards. There may have been others. They were cheap, but the ones I have seen were well made. I had a number of them come through my shop for repairs over the years. Repair parts hard to impossible find and difficult to make. The reputation was they were cheap, so worthless to repair. I didn't see that quality in them at all. It was a shame they used deceptive markings. People get very upset when tell them.


This gun could be one of those. But in all honesty, I have only ever seen these guns in Shotguns. I don't know either, if these guns only came to the US. market or others in the world.

If this gun is part of that trade, it is the first Rifle I have seen so marked.

The T. Bland mark is spurious, hand stamped. Even handstamped to be Bland it would have to have been marked "T.Bland & Sons" to be correct.

Else wise this is a very nice looking rifle. It would make a nice addition to Martini Sporting rifle collection.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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lancaster
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DoubleD]
      #329412 - 17/06/19 03:11 AM

honest example of this typ of rifle for your collection, I think you did very well.

what shoot the adaptor? 45 long colt

iirc, the belgians were very keen to change well known names into fatasy thats sounds very similar for the ignorant. something like maybe "Wesley Richards" to make the customer believe it was "Westley Richards".

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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buckstix
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: lancaster]
      #329414 - 17/06/19 04:48 AM

Hello lancaster,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, the adapter is for 45 long colt.

I really like this Martini, even if its not made by Thomas Bland. It appears to be very well made. Even if it was all or partial made by some unknown Belgium maker, it was purchased or finished by someone in England, as evidenced by the Birmingham Proofs.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DoubleD
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: buckstix]
      #329422 - 17/06/19 10:50 PM

I am not a fan of the Adapter. In the 577/450 chamber they can stick. That chamber was designed for a foil cartridge and only has standards of dimension in the head of the chamber for the steel head of the cartridge. The front half of the chamber is not standard. The shoulder is a ogee-two opposing arc, the radius of which is not standard and not precisely located.

When fired the shoulder of the adapter which is flat-straight is forced into the Ogee and sticks. The first time it sticks in a chamber should be the last time it is fired in the chamber.

I have removed several of these, the last which required removal of the barrel. Of course the gun owner had followed the advice of a Shade tree Gunsmith and filled the adapter with lead to try to get the adapter out. I had to put the barrel in the lathe and drill the lead out to get the adapter out.

I have an adapter. 45 ACP in 45/70 I haven't seen it in years. It was tedious to shoot. You have to load twice. Load the cartridge in the adapter, load the adapter in the rifle, fire, unload adapter from the chamber, unload the adapter-sometimes with a stick, repeat. To slow, to boring. It did not shoot well. .452/.454 bullet down .460 groove. Martini, 45 Colt in 577/450. .452/.454 bullet down a .468 or larger throat for about 6 inches to meet a .464 groove.

Analogy's I have used over the years to compare subcaliber adapters-Kissing your sister or showering in a rain coat.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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buckstix
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DoubleD]
      #329471 - 19/06/19 09:46 AM

Quote:

"..... I am not a fan of the Adapter. In the 577/450 chamber they can stick. ..... The first time it sticks in a chamber should be the last time it is fired in the chamber. ...."


Hello DoubleD,

Thanks for the reply.

You are absolutely right! It took me 2 hours to get the damn thing out after the first (and last) shot.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: buckstix]
      #329481 - 20/06/19 02:06 AM

Tks for the heads-up on the problems with this arrangement, DD and buckstix.

Nice rifle!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DarylS]
      #329507 - 20/06/19 08:13 PM

Buckstix, that's a nice rifle. I agree the marks indicate it was made in Belgium.

I would throw the chamber adapter over the hill.

Here's how your fine Martini should be shot:







Good luck with your find!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #329519 - 21/06/19 02:15 AM

I agree Curly - very nice indeed - 4 inside 2".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DarylS]
      #329525 - 21/06/19 06:10 AM

Quote:

I agree Curly - very nice indeed - 4 inside 2".


Hey Cap,
with your Martini where are you aiming? Are you using your sights conventionally so the aim is under the black part of the target & a fine bead - I've heard they all shoot high?
Corker group by the way!

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DarylS
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329529 - 21/06/19 06:45 AM

I suspect the bead centered on the vertical line in the bottom of the 7 ring.

That would put the bullets 6 to 6 1/2" above the centre of the bead at 50yards - about right, I would think. IIRC, the Martini I had back in the mid 70's printed about 8" high at 50 yards using a 480gr. PP with 85gr. C&H 3F. The C&H was quite weak, hence the use of 3F.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329533 - 21/06/19 09:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I agree Curly - very nice indeed - 4 inside 2".


Hey Cap,
with your Martini where are you aiming? Are you using your sights conventionally so the aim is under the black part of the target & a fine bead - I've heard they all shoot high?
Corker group by the way!





Exactly. 6 o'clock hold.

The black bullseye on the target you see is just under 8 inches diameter. This is my normal 100 yard open sight target, but it was my first group with this riflel

The Martini-Henry has rather coarse sights.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #329534 - 21/06/19 10:07 AM

Here's the second group I shot, still at 50 yards, but with my normal 50 yard bullseye.





And here's the group that followed that, at 100 yards:





Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DoubleD
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #329553 - 22/06/19 12:28 AM

Show me 13 rounds on a B-17 target at 100 yards with blackpowder and I will send you a Victorian Rifleman Provincial shooting medal.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DoubleD]
      #329555 - 22/06/19 01:53 AM

Quote:

Show me 13 rounds on a B-17 target at 100 yards with blackpowder and I will send you a Victorian Rifleman Provincial shooting medal.





Hmmmmm.....

That's an interesting proposition! All the more interesting because I just now checked my stock of loaded ammo - exactly 13 rounds.









It's quite windy here today. Maybe this afternoon!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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93x64mm
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #329558 - 22/06/19 05:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I agree Curly - very nice indeed - 4 inside 2".


Hey Cap,
with your Martini where are you aiming? Are you using your sights conventionally so the aim is under the black part of the target & a fine bead - I've heard they all shoot high?
Corker group by the way!




Exactly. 6 o'clock hold.

The black bullseye on the target you see is just under 8 inches diameter. This is my normal 100 yard open sight target, but it was my first group with this riflel

The Martini-Henry has rather coarse sights.

Curl



Cheers Cap
At least now I'll have a point of reference to aim at the 50 & 100 meter ranges & should now know where they'll lob!
I noticed yours is a Mk IV 1887 build, mine is the same year except a Mk III.
Many thanks & here's hoping that you & Buckstix will get that badge of Daryl

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buckstix
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329562 - 22/06/19 08:49 AM

Hello All,

I finally got the dies and brass that I had ordered from Midway. I purchased Lee dies because they were such a bargain compared to the other 2 sources. Midway had the Lee dies for $88 for a 3-die set and they came with a shell holder. I'm not usually fond of Lee, but RCBS dies were $490 plus $15 for a shell holder, and C4 dies were $260 plus $20 for a shell holder.

As I do with most of my big capacity cartridges, I loaded AR5744, and I must say I'm very pleased with the results. As you can see, I used .458 dia jacketed bullets. People have told me that jacketed bullets don't do well in Henry rifling - I disagree.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: buckstix]
      #329564 - 22/06/19 12:36 PM

Amazing, buckstix. Have you measured the groove diameter?

I think I recall mine being .462", groove to groove.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DarylS]
      #329572 - 22/06/19 04:53 PM

Quote:

Amazing, buckstix. Have you measured the groove diameter?

I think I recall mine being .462", groove to groove.



Hello Daryl_S,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, my groove diameter measures .462 inches. But the bore dia on my rifle measured over a gauge plug is .448 diameter. When loading a standard .458 jacketed bullet, there is still .005 deep bullet engagement. Accuracy in my rifle is great.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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lancaster
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: buckstix]
      #329577 - 22/06/19 06:22 PM

again jacketed bullets shot great also in oversized barrels

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: lancaster]
      #329587 - 23/06/19 02:53 AM

My last Mil. 96 in 6.5x55 put 85gr. HP's, 100gr. HP's, 129gr. SP's and 140gr. Sierras & 160gr. Horandy's into 1 1/2" at 100 meters quite consistently, using only the battle sights. A group composed of all the bullet weights made a 3" group, C to C. As well, my #4 in .312 Express (.350Rem Mag case) makes 1 1/2" groups as well, at 100 meters using .312" Hornadys, yet it's groove dia. (2) is .315".
So, yes - I have seen marvelous results with jacketed bullets in large groove dia. barrels. I am currently experimenting with .312" 174's in an 8.15x46R. Seems to want to shoot them. It also has a .315" groove dia.




--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DarylS]
      #329591 - 23/06/19 08:00 AM

Wow - you certainly have a good shooter there Buckstix!
As with you m96 to Daryl

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DarylS
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: 93x64mm]
      #329594 - 23/06/19 05:56 PM

Yes - he does and I do. I failed to mention that 6.5 Swede had a .266" groove diameter.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Martini 577-450 Sporting Rifle - Help with proof marks [Re: DoubleD]
      #329637 - 25/06/19 10:07 AM

Quote:

" ... It is a Belguim made Martini. This board and the British Militaria board are the two best boards to come to, to have those marks read.
-
While I am reluctant to state emphatically, I doubt it has anything to do with Thomas Bland and Son's. Martini's came along after the firm became "& Son's".
-
I think this is similar to the guns imported into the US from Belgium in the late 1890's up to somewhere around WWI, primarily shotguns that bore deceptive makers marks. ... "
-
" ... It was a shame they used deceptive markings. People get very upset when tell them. This gun could be one of those. But in all honesty, I have only ever seen these guns in Shotguns. I don't know either, if these guns only came to the US. market or others in the world. If this gun is part of that trade, it is the first Rifle I have seen so marked.
-
The T. Bland mark is spurious, hand stamped. Even hand stamped to be Bland it would have to have been marked "T. Bland & Sons" to be correct.
-
Else wise this is a very nice looking rifle. It would make a nice addition to Martini Sporting rifle collection. ... "



Hello DoubleD,

Thanks for the reply.

Well, as I mentioned on the other forum, it turns out the T BLAND stamp is not spurious. This is in fact a Thomas Bland produced rifle, albeit a very early gun according to the letter of authentication that I received today.

It wouldn't have mattered to me even if it was a Belgium "knock-off" because its a neat old rifle, but I'm very, very pleased that it turned out to be original! ! ... Yippie!

Now all I have to do is find out if Mr. Rothman was a man of notoriety and if I can find anything about his 1886 Safari using this rifle.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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