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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Buffalo Head Shot
      #32937 - 12/06/05 12:45 AM

From time to time on these forums, we are treated to some arm-chair expert's opinion on using small-bore rifles on buffalo. Generally, the head-shot is suggested, with the presumption that even a .22 centrefire must be adequate if it finds the brain. Well, there lies the problem: finding the brain!

Here is a photo of a buffalo skull from the front, showing the large cavity between the outer skull and the actual cranium. This cavity is capable of 'catching' a bullet and deflecting it away from the brain, and may even pull-up a well-directed small-bore projectile before it gets to the brain.



The cavity is filled with fluid and soft-tissue, and strengthened with bone 'girders' which are clearly visible in the close-up. Obviously the cavity is a shock-absorber for the head-to-head clashes when the big bulls fight! What chance does a small-bore bullet have?



The side-on head-shot is even more difficult, as the bases of the horns on a big bull will almost completely protect the cranium from the side. The brain is a lot smaller than most people realize, too. Also, there is a lot of heavy bone between the horn-base and the cranium, needed to hold up that massive trophy we so keenly covet!



Buffalo are routinely head-shot from above (mainly from helicopters) with .308s without incident, but a shooter at ground-level really needs to know what he's doing to employ the head-shot successfully over the longer term. Of all the buff I've seen taken in the hunting field, the head-shot is the one which has produced the most stuff-ups.

Whenever my mates hear some 'expert' expounding the virtues of small-bore rifles for the head-shot on bull buffalo, they just chuckle softly to themselves and walk away. Now you know why!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marty
.300 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 123
Loc: Darwin. NT, Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #32954 - 12/06/05 01:18 PM

What did that bull go points wise Marra?

Larry donged a average sort of bull with as good a headshot as you could ever hope to pull off with his .308 with 180gn Woodlieghs. He did everything right and the thing was still walking round after he hit it, as you no doubt remember.

People can take Buff with smaller calibres as the young fella on the other thread can attest. And people can screw it up with heavier calibres too. But it is definately a case of "bigger is better".



--------------------
__________________________________

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Bakes
.375 member


Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
Loc: QLD
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marty]
      #32984 - 13/06/05 10:20 AM

Good post Marrakai.



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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39734
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #32991 - 13/06/05 02:48 PM

Good photos Marrakai.

I know about a brain shot being difficult on a buff as if you remember I wrote once about trying to finish off my bull with a frontal brain shot. I fired a little too high, one reason my double is shooting way too high and I under-compensated. The 480 gr Woodleigh FMJ ricocheted off the skull leaving a deep gouge like an entry wound, though we did not know it till we caped off the skull later. The bull did drop stunned but again started to revive.

My mate who plans to use the 6.5mm used heart shots when he shot them with a .270. If you refer back I never mentioned going for a brain shot at all though most assumed that was what was intended and they discussed it.

So I do ask the question, what do you think of the heart shot on a water buffalo? If consistently and accurately placed it will certainly kill a buffalo. How long and how many metres would it take before the buffalo drops? Assuming people aren't blazing away at it.

Also what bullet is recommended? He was thinking of a Barnes-X.

Just for discussion to see what people's points of views are. As previously said I intend to use either a .450, a.375 or a 9.3mm myself.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: NitroX]
      #32998 - 13/06/05 04:13 PM


NitroX,

How long and how many metres would it take before the
buffalo drops? "

It depends. I have had buffalo drop dead immediately from a heart
shot and other try to run.

It also depends on whether the heart is full or empty when the bullet hits.
It makes a big difference to the effect.

Any heart shot with a 6.5 will kill the buff but you may have to follow it up quite a long
way if it runs.

Hope this helps

500 Nitro

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #33000 - 13/06/05 04:47 PM

Marrakai,
Great post and photos mate.
That bone structure sure is massive.
And by the way, your pavers need repainting!

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ORION
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/03
Posts: 58
Loc: SSouth Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: 4seventy]
      #33012 - 13/06/05 10:48 PM

Hi MARRAKAI

in the previous post you mentioned,you shot Buffalo
with a 6.5X54.What bullet and load did you use?

Would like to know.
Waihi
Orion

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: 4seventy]
      #33013 - 13/06/05 10:59 PM

In reply to:

And by the way, your pavers need repainting!


Cheeky bugger! They're flagstone pavers, same brick colour all the way through, not painted!

Marty: I well remember Larry's head-shot bull, the Woodleigh 180gr PP projectile actually passed through the base of the ear into the skull, but still he staggered out, fell over and got back up a couple of times, before standing there, legs splayed, shaking his head! Bloody tough! Anyway, a couple more quick ones behind the shoulder did the trick. (thankfully!) As I recall, the first bullet smashed through the lower brain-pan, but didn't actually penetrate the brain itself. Not good enough!

O & BTW, the top trophy in my first post was 104 pts, the lower one would have been 109 but for a broken tip.

Orion: The only bullet I use in that little 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer is the Hornady 160gr round-nose soft-point, over a case-full of AR2209 (35.4 grains). It is deadly on pigs, donks, etc, and kills out of all proportion, but requires surgical precision to take a buff. Although I have bagged a good bull with the little carbine, I stuffed-up on a nice buff many years ago in the Shoal Bay reserve. Due to the long grass it was in fact (you guessed it!) an attempted head-shot! These days I know better...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #33057 - 14/06/05 10:31 PM

Great pics Tony and very informative..
I can add weight to your explanation as to why head shots are NOT the best choice when hunting buffalo..
Rifle:- 375 Chatfield Taylor
Projectile:-300 gn round nose soft nose.
MV:-2200 fps aprox
Distance:-30 yards and closing FAST.


First shot stunned the animal,sat down on hind quarters.
Second shot from side on into heart lung area before it got to its feet.
Third shot through bottom of brisket into heart lung area as animal rolled over.

This all took less than 15 seconds..
After cleaning the skull only a small dent was found smaller than a one cent piece..

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

Edited by ALAN_MCKENZIE (16/09/05 01:38 PM)

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #33063 - 14/06/05 11:32 PM

Geez mate, that's pretty scary: you actually remember what a one cent piece looks like!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #33065 - 15/06/05 12:21 AM

OK OK OK .maybe I should have said the indentation in the bulls skull was the size of a threepenny bit !!!!!!!!

OOOPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSS

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39734
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Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #33072 - 15/06/05 12:30 AM



Interesting. My shot was lower. Same result however. The skulls sure are tough, however the angle and defection may account for some of it.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #33084 - 15/06/05 02:17 AM


Alan,

Talking about Buffalo and Head shots made me think that this is why at the very
least I have a FMJ at the bottom of the magazine and sometime depneding on
what I am hunting the last 2 are FMJ's.

At least I know from either end of the animal (full charge or running away)
it will get through.

Anyone else do this ?

500 Nitro

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: 500Nitro]
      #33117 - 15/06/05 01:47 PM

500 Nitro,I have made a habit of loading 3 soft and one solid however speaking to other experienced hunters ,a lot of whom are regular contributors on this sight including yourself, I will in future load 2 soft followed by 2 solid rounds when hunting heavy dangerous game..
Further I would not attempt to hunt buff with anything smaller than a 375 or its equivelents..

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #33120 - 15/06/05 04:30 PM

ALAN,

It's interesting that you say others load 2 solids, not just one.

I came to this conclusion after about the10th Buffalo on the following basis.

I can generally get 2 - 3 aimed shots off in 6 - 8 seconds. I noticed that if the Buffalo hadn't dropped
by then, it was generally running directly away from me - or directly at me if they charged but
I hadn't been charged at this stage !!!

Therefore if I had to fire again, the bullet had to rake the full length of the body to get through to
the vitals so I came to the conclusion that 2 solids is better than 1. 2 Solids also gave me
2 shots that would penetrate through to the brain if I copped a charge.

"Further I would not attempt to hunt buff with anything smaller than a 375 or its equivelents."

I agree - 375H&H, 9.3 should be the minimum - quite a few PH's have said to me that 338 WM
is very marginal and they have to finish it.

However I have to shoot other calibres sometimes for work (hence why I had a 338
in my hands when charged but we weren't hunting big buff, just a cow !!!) but I am
generally careful with what I do.

500 Nitro

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: 500Nitro]
      #33122 - 15/06/05 04:50 PM

500 Nitro ,Totally agree with you.
My comments about calibre were for the benifit of members who have not yet hunted buff or planned on hunting buff with a lesser calibre.
Sounds like you had a run in with a fizzy cow with little hooky horns.
Scrub cattle in our north can be very proddy especially the cows...even had them climb in the bull buggy with me..
Gets kind of exciting to say the least...........

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #33127 - 15/06/05 05:56 PM

Alan,

The Buff that charged me was a cow - just a stroppy one !!!
In fact 2 days before another cow that had been running with the one that charged me
came at us in a "bluff" "charge / forward motion when we were on the 4 wheel bikes.
I chambered a round "just in case" which prompted my mate to shoot it at 10 yards !!!
Any closer and she would have been head butting the bike !!!

I haven't had the privelage of hunting Scrub Bull / Scrub cattle but I have had plenty of stories about
them being agressive / prone to charging.

When I am hunting I normally carry a 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffrey, 500 Nitro double, 465 or 470 double
so I am normally well prepared. It's when I am testing that I use different (smaller) calibres.

Interestingly, the 9.3 x 64 is devastating on Buffalo with the 320gn Woodleighs.
(FYI, I put the 9.3 x 62 in the same category as long as it is loaded to it's full potential).

I shot a heap of Buffalo with the 9.3 320gn Protected Points when they were first produced
(as well as with the 320gn and 286gn RN's to get a direct comparison) and the heavy bullet
weight for the calibre really showed some penetration.

Having now shot Buffalo with the 338 WM (and they weren't squib loads either !!!),
I feel 9.3 really is the Minimum for the inexperienced and or occasional buffalo hunter.

Just my HO

500 Nitro

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ORION
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/03
Posts: 58
Loc: SSouth Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #33130 - 15/06/05 06:14 PM

Hi Marrakai,
interesting load you use.
What do you think of my loadings:
Norma brass
federal 210 primer
160 Gr Hornady
44 Gr AR 2213 SC
speed: 2275 ft.Sec
2.Load:
Norma brass
Federal 210 primer
140 Gr Barnes(blue)
44 Gr AR 2213 SC
speed:2370 ft./Sec
I KNOW WHERE THE HEART AND LUNGS ARE!!!(Im a butcher)
Waihi
Orion

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ORION]
      #33136 - 15/06/05 11:08 PM

Orion:
How the heck do you get 44 grains of 2213SC in the Mannlicher case?? ..and still seat a 160-gr bullet????

Sure you're not talking about the Swedish cartridge??

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ORION]
      #33146 - 16/06/05 12:50 AM

ORION,6.5 X54 is a great round for any thing smaller than and including red deer...
They also make a great territory pig rifle.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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ORION
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/03
Posts: 58
Loc: SSouth Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #33195 - 16/06/05 06:28 PM

Hi Marrakai,

to answer your question:
with a 2 foot copperpipe (homemade) droptube.
By using the long droptube and a funnel.You dont just drop the powder in,you squirl it in one even flow.Takes a bit of practise,but works like a charm.
No pressure signs in my MS.

Hi Mckenzie,
I know youre a "big caliber man"
Im confident the 6,5 will do the job!As you know its not
with what you hit them,(any big caliber)Its more important where you hit.I have a Blaser .375,dont like it very much
it kicks like a mule.
Shot countless Camelbulls with it ,at NO stage I had better
oneshot kills than with my 270.
Hope that answers your concern.

Waihi
Orion

Expirience is a hard teacher,gives the test first and the lesson later.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ORION]
      #33205 - 16/06/05 08:50 PM

Orion,I'm not worried,
YOUR LIFE NOT MINE.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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ORION
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/03
Posts: 58
Loc: SSouth Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #37277 - 12/09/05 05:07 PM

Alan

I have seen big guns in action.

Experience is a hard teacher,gives you the test first and the lesson later.

Waihi
Orion

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3563
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: ORION]
      #37287 - 12/09/05 11:58 PM

Orion:
I too have seen big guns in action, and I like 'em!

I am happy that you accomplished what you set out to do, ie add a buffalo (or two) to the Mannlicher's impressive tally. We are all relieved that you were not subjected to an 'incident', and that no 'pricked' animals escaped.

I assume that now you know a buff can be hit in what should be the perfect spot with a 6.5, and merely shrug it off. One-shot kills with small-bores on big animals like buffalo are the exception rather than the rule.

We are all hanging out for the war-stories and photos, so please don't keep us in suspense for too long!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ORION
.275 member


Reged: 25/01/03
Posts: 58
Loc: SSouth Australia
Re: Buffalo Head Shot [Re: Marrakai]
      #37343 - 13/09/05 08:33 PM

Hi Marrakai

NO WAR - STORY
both buffalo died with 2 chest shots.
As soon as John puts the pictures up,I give you all
the juicy details.
Specially for you:
140 gr Barnes blue
210 Federal Primer
42 1/2 gr 2209 (H4350)
Norma cases
2400 ft./sec
Waihi
Orion
P.S.Buffalo no 1 two rear end shots no affect.

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