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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :)
      #323327 - 16/01/19 06:11 AM

2bre by A Hoffart, on Flickr

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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93x64mm
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Ripp]
      #323328 - 16/01/19 07:13 AM

If you just paid for the lead alone (from say Bunnings) it would work out $1.45 per bullet for the 2B, but only a tiny 21c for the 470!

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Sarg
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: 93x64mm]
      #323334 - 16/01/19 09:15 AM

Was there ever a real old days 2 Bore Rifle cartridge or only Shot Gun cartridge ?

Looks awesome !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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Ripp
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Sarg]
      #323345 - 16/01/19 02:42 PM

Quote:

Was there ever a real old days 2 Bore Rifle cartridge or only Shot Gun cartridge ?

Looks awesome !




Why YES, there actually was..can you imagine??

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_bore

Excerpt:

2 bore was the largest size ever created for a shoulder rifle. This caliber was used by European hunters, notably the British, in tropical climates of Africa and India in the 19th century for hunting large dangerous game animals. Loaded with black powder, it was unpopular due to thick smoke and excessive recoil. The rifle was fired from the shoulder by one person. Larger guns existed, such as the punt gun, but these were only fired supported and generally from a prone position. Sir Samuel White Baker, British explorer and hunter of the Victorian era, was impressed by its power, but heavily disapproved of the recoil. He narrates dashing adventures with his two-bore rifle, which he affectionately referred to as "Baby":

Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell—this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile; it only weighed twenty pounds: thus, with a charge of ten drachms [270 grains] of powder, behind a half-pound shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I spun around like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own rifle, although I had been accustomed to heavy charges of powder, and severe recoil for some years. None of my men could fire it, and it was looked upon with a species of awe, and it was named "Jenna-El-Mootfah" (Child of a Cannon) by the Arabs, which being far too long a name for practice, I christened it the "Baby;" and the scream of this "Baby" loaded with a half-pound shell was always fatal. It was far too severe, and I very seldom fired it, but it is a curious fact, that I never fired a shot with that rifle without bagging: the entire practice, during several years, was confined to about twenty shots. I was afraid to use it; but now and then it was absolutely necessary that it should be cleaned, after months of staying loaded. On such occasions my men had the gratification of firing it, and the explosion was always accompanied by two men falling on their backs (one having propped up the shooter), and the "Baby" flying some yards behind them. This rifle was made by Holland & Holland, of Bond Street, and I could highly recommend it for the Goliath of Gath, but not for the men of A.D. 1866.[1]

— Sir Samuel White Baker

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Ripp]
      #323346 - 16/01/19 03:46 PM

Not sure on that Ripp, that's way I asked "Cartrigde" as the only ones I have read of were Muzzle Loaders, as was Sammys more or less Punt guns that some one took ashore !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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Daryl_S
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Sarg]
      #323348 - 16/01/19 04:12 PM

Not sure on the accuracy of Wikipedia about this subject. If this is actually a quote by Baker, perhaps he was grandstanding, or perhaps "addled" by the heavy recoiling guns he normally used.

I would put more faith in this statement if it was a re-print from "The Field" magazine/paper.

Punt guns were up to 2", I believe, most common between 1" and 1 1/2" though and 50 pounds or more.

Common shot charge, was up to 3 pounds of #1 shot. I don't know what the powder charge was, I can only assume 10 to perhaps 18 drams depending on the bore size.

Most ducks killed/wounded with one shot, was 128, seems to me. I might have that number mixed up with the largest 'string' of bison killed from one "stand".

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 11433
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Daryl_S]
      #323357 - 16/01/19 10:24 PM

Interesting info Daryl..
Thank you...

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 11433
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Ripp]
      #323358 - 17/01/19 12:11 AM

Video--
2 bore/4 bore info...
12,000 FP of energy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYlDgwo52tI


More of the same info..
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/double-deuce-2-bore-rifle-a-gunsmithing-spectacle/

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (17/01/19 12:14 AM)


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Karl
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Reged: 28/05/03
Posts: 83
Loc: South Pacific
Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Daryl_S]
      #326629 - 30/03/19 04:57 PM

Bakers gun wasnt a 2 bore unfortunately. Folks read the 1/2 pound and do the math assuming a roundball but Baker never says roundball in connection with it or uses the term 2 bore in any of his writings. I think even Treusdale and Jack Lott have misquoted it over the years.

This was hashed out a few times on AR over about 20 years and someone actually referenced it and its seriel number and it checks out closer to 3 bore. apparently Which means the projectile or shell as he refers to it as was conical or some other longer shape of smaller diametre.

As to whether 2 bores existed, the calibre is certainly covered in punt gun sizes. As to whether there was a dedicated 2 bore used for safari purposes I have not seen any evidence except for one passage which I read in the early days of the net, and have not been able to find since. Mentioning a gentleman 'Gibbs' using a true 2 bore with half round ball, they even mentioned the load of black he liked. However it was just a few lines on the old style AR website and I am not sure if it was fact or a line of fiction from a book. I could not find it in 2004 when the subject was raised again nor any searches I have done since.



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Daryl_S
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Karl]
      #326641 - 31/03/19 04:18 AM


By 1860, Forsyth,and others were experimenting with explosive 'shells' for shooting dangerous game, starting with General Jacob's designs and changing them for more rapid detonations.

These were called "Shells" and could very well be what Baker was referring to.

A 10dram (270gr.) charge is not a max load in a 4 bore and in a 2 bore, would be very mild load indeed. By mild, I am not saying it would not kick, rather I am referring to it being a 'light' load.

Forsyth spoke of loads used with these exploding "shells" and they were indeed 'lighter' than would be normally used. On top of that, the ranges would have to be very close due to trajectory.

Higher standard/normal velocities were not conducive to having the 'shell' explode at the correct time - the charge had to be adjusted for each animal sought, whether elephant, tiger or buffalo. For rapid or shallow penetration explosions, charges as light as 2 to 2 1/2 drams in an 8 bore. That's only 54 1/2gr. to 68gr. black powder a piddling charge in such a huge bore. I use 6 drams in my 14 bore rifle, for hunting moose. Yes, more than necessary to kill, but necessary to give a point blank range, to 130yards.(6" kill zone)

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Karl
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Daryl_S]
      #326673 - 01/04/19 12:19 AM

yes I believe Baker referenced forsyth shells in his writings, I think he used the term at least once in connection with his 4 bore loads too.

I just managed to track down the descendants of Samuel Baker and also a current pic of the gun which was photographed in some kind of Royal society museum in the UK in 2014. Hopefully I can get a reply from them and possibly precise measurements and more photos of the gun.It may be the museum holding it so lining someone to go in there may be necessary. I will see what status the situation is during the week anywa. Alf an old forumite/hunter/historian from south africa on accurate reloading was the guy who posted the first pics of this rifle back in about 2006 but he deleted most of his posts way back. I am not sure if he is even still around. I havent been so not sure who is still in the mix

By the way, great subject by Ripp, the modern versions certainly do exist. And I am guessing this is the Ripp aka Rip aka Daggaron off AR fame?


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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Karl]
      #326674 - 01/04/19 12:22 AM

OK then, just a little 'OL THREE BORE???? I would try that!!? (LoL),,,,Ed

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Longknife


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Daryl_S
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Longknife]
      #326678 - 01/04/19 04:09 AM

The top gun here, is a 6 bore(.92")of the early 1800's era- maybe 1820-ish. Very nicely proportioned.
The other two are 24 bore (.58's) rifles, I think.
The size difference is quite noticeable. The bottom gun in the picture could be of smaller bore, yet, 28 bore, maybe (.54).




4-bore Blunderbuss. Of course, the belling of the muzzle for loading in a carriage or on horse-back is evident in the bottom photo.




--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Karl
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Daryl_S]
      #327046 - 09/04/19 09:00 PM

Nice guns Daryl. The early 1800's is the grey area of big bore hunting to my mind. Just what did the first hunters bring over. No dedicated 2 bores surface in proven literature I have found. But did someone level one of the smaller 2 bore puntguns or some oversized blunderbuss at an elephant at some stage? its not unlikely. They were apparently trying anything they could to bring them down.

An update that the current custodians of Samuel Baker's gun have gotten hold of me and hopefully I will have some exact measurements of it. I was thinking its suprising more people havent checked it before but I guess before the internet it was difficult to track down and secondly anyone who did visit and satisfy themselves as to the guns dimensions probably had limited way to declare it afterwards.

Sorry for the thread hijack btw.


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Daryl_S
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Karl]
      #327063 - 10/04/19 01:29 AM

The exact core measurements would be very nice to know. Baker wrote
IN the March 23rd, 1861, Baker wrote that:

"I strongly vote against conical balls for dangerous game; they make too neat a wound, and are very apt to glance on striking a bone. The larger the surface struck the greater will be the benumbing effect of the blow. . . In giving an opinion against conical balls for dangerous game, I do so from practical proofs of their inferiority. I had at one time a two-groove single rifle, weighing 21 lbs., carrying a 3oz. belted ball, with a charge of 12 drachms powder. This was a kind of " devil stopper " and never failed in flooring a charging elephant, although, if not struck in the brain, he might recover his legs. I had a conical mould made for this rifle, the ball of which weighed 4 oz., but instead of rendering it more Invincible, it entirely destroyed its efficacy, and brought me into such scrapes that I at length gave up the conical ball as useless."

3oz. is 1,312gr. & was the weight of the belted ball - for a rifled gun. The actual bore, not the groove dia. would have been in the 5-bore range, .977", or so, as needed to give room for the necessary patch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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szihn
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Daryl_S]
      #327068 - 10/04/19 03:41 AM

According to all the research I could do, and all that was done by a few authors who wrote books on the subject, I am the man that made the first true sporting rifle in 2 bore in history. A left hand cap-lock monster with a 36' barrel named King Kong.

I know that may been braggadocios, but it is true. I would not say dogmatically I am the first, but so far, all records we have been able to come up with say I am the first.

It was made for a former member of this forum, "Big Dog" Ken Greenlee. It was sold at auction a while back.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail...tion-percussion

Here are some pics.
100_1426 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
100_1422 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
100_1421 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
100_1430 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr


Edited by szihn (10/04/19 03:50 AM)


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93x64mm
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: szihn]
      #327070 - 10/04/19 05:56 AM

Should have had wheels on it szihn.....it is an actual artillery piece!
Well if you every dared yourself to fire it then you must have one hell of a shoulder & one heck of a lot of nerve!
Must complement you on your work, that is one fantastic piece of wood to handle such enormous recoil - would that be maple by the way?


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szihn
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: 93x64mm]
      #327077 - 10/04/19 08:11 AM

Yes it's Rock Maple.
The customer ordered that way and I can't say I'd disagree with him. It's pretty, but the real reason for it's use was it's density and strength. The weight is 22 pounds. It's "too light" too.

I test fired the barrel after it was breached, but I told Ken that I would accept his order but I would not zero it. Ken was over 400 pounds. I am 185. So I could not have done it anyway. He did shoot it with up to 300 grains of powder, but the gun would handle up to 750. Such a load would be only for someone like Superman to fire as the recoil would probably be like getting hit by a car.
With 300 grains it would back Ken up over 3 feet.

The side plate and the comb-plate are both to add weight. They are made of heavy plate. There are 2 (or maybe it was 3) "dead-Mule recoil reducers in the butt. Even the grip cap was made of thick metal. All in get the weight up so the recoil could be dampened. From what he told me, it didn't work very well. It's just all I could do without making the gun so big around that you could not close a hand around it.

Colin Stolzer (now in Washington Kansas) has now made several 2 bores including a double breach loader, which is what the shell in the first post by Ripp goes too. He has learned a lot about such artillery. I dare say he has now become the foremost authority on them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv6Z7rRYtPU



But be that as it may, I was the 1st one to make such a monster for "sporting use". All others we were able to document were mounted on boats or were wall guns.
Colin goes by CowboyCS on this site, but I don't see him here very often.

Edited by szihn (10/04/19 09:02 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: szihn]
      #327085 - 10/04/19 09:11 AM

Steve, seems to me Big Dog has passed? Is this correct?
Big gun, for a big man.

This is THAT 2 bore side hammer.




--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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szihn
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Daryl_S]
      #327100 - 10/04/19 03:50 PM

Yes Ken (BigDog) passed away a while back. I never met him fast to face, but I have several fun conversations with him on the phone. I was saddened when I heard he had passed on.
And yes --- that's the gun.

Edited by szihn (10/04/19 03:50 PM)


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Longknife
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: szihn]
      #328975 - 29/05/19 10:52 PM

""""""""""""I was afraid to use it; but now and then it was absolutely necessary that it should be cleaned, after months of staying loaded."""""""

This statement would indicate that this Rifle was a muzzle-loader,,,,

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Longknife


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Daryl_S
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Re: 2 Bore vs 470 Nitro pic..... perspective.. :) [Re: Longknife]
      #328976 - 30/05/19 12:40 AM

Good post, Ed. I was hoping some news would come from this on what I think is a VERY valid topic to be kept alive, up until we know the measurements.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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