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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Chavez
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Reged: 31/10/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Kentucky
German Simson double rifle action
      #327669 - 25/04/19 03:24 AM

Was reading about the German made Simpson 405 win , but I guess it timed out ,so I'll ask my question here , last year I was at the big gun show in Louisville ky , and a man had a Simpson action he said was for a rifle , he said Simpson made low pressure rifles on there 12 ga, frames , this frame had horizontal groves from the striker holes out to the clips and small holes in them , I was guessing to help in case of a bad primer ,there were no markings on it and it looked like a 12 ga, to me except for the groves , if I would have known Simpson did this I would have bought the action , I have a Simpson 12 ga , but would like to have a low pressure rifle in one , just wondering if anyone has ever heard of the before ?

Edited by Chavez (25/04/19 09:15 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #327676 - 25/04/19 04:10 AM

did you mean simson?

I was saying this before but nobody is willing to hear it

every suhl made double gun action made between 1949 and 1990 is the REAL thing for building a double rifle. every!

before its not so easy and after 1990 things changing but in fact all actions in this time frame came from the same source, all were equal for building double guns, combination guns and double rifles.

believe it or not

--------------------
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Chavez
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: lancaster]
      #327689 - 25/04/19 08:06 AM

Yes Simson , sorry bout that , I'll blame it on auto spell , Glad to here he was correct and now sad I didn't buy it , ill look for one now I would like to have a 405 win or a 400 Jeffery (450/400) . On that action .

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #327698 - 25/04/19 06:04 PM

I'll have to have a look at my Simson Suhl side by side shotgun right now. Got it with me.

I thought I remember reading there was a difference and some shotgun frames were slimmer than other models?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: NitroX]
      #327789 - 27/04/19 11:48 AM

Chavez,
The Simson .405 is a nice piece for looking and shooting. Here is mine cased with Simson & CO Suhl Trade label taken from old Simson brochures:


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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: crshelton]
      #327791 - 27/04/19 12:31 PM

For some background reading and some pix of Simson guns, try this link:
http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/archive-simson-co/

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Chavez
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Loc: Kentucky
Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: crshelton]
      #327803 - 27/04/19 02:41 PM

That's a fine looking riffle , I'm thinking about making a set of rifle barrels for my simson 12g, with 24" barrels , 450/400 or 405 win .

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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #327813 - 27/04/19 10:34 PM

Chavez,
This rifle was made by a member of this forum for his personal use and I liked it so much that he sold it to me and I am very pleased with it.

I will provide you a link to his post on the completed rifle:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=265159&an=0&page=0

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

Edited by crshelton (27/04/19 10:36 PM)


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Chavez
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: crshelton]
      #327817 - 27/04/19 11:50 PM

He does great work , you're lucky to get it , hope mine turns out that good ,

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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #327836 - 28/04/19 12:20 PM

You might like one of these trade labels when your Simson gun is done.


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transvaal
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: lancaster]
      #327857 - 29/04/19 08:15 AM

Quote:

did you mean simson?

I was saying this before but nobody is willing to hear it

every suhl made double gun action made between 1949 and 1990 is the REAL thing for building a double rifle. every!

before its not so easy and after 1990 things changing but in fact all actions in this time frame came from the same source, all were equal for building double guns, combination guns and double rifles.

believe it or not






Lancaster;

Thank you for your comment that "every suhl made double gun action made between 1949 and 1990 is the Real thing for building a double rife. every!" This comment really intrigues me as I want to find another shotgun action candidate for building DR's.

I have built some double rifles using shotgun actions previously, but I have not built a double rifle on a Simson action (which seem to be excellent actions)even though I wanted to do so, as I could not find one that had what the English gunmakers call striker discs (what Americans call firing pin bushings). Instead I decided that the CZ zp49 action of 1950's and early 1960's best suited my needs(as the service pressure of the cartridges that I was building the DR for would be around 40,000psi and the test firing that I would do to test the barrel strength was at 54,000psi--two shots per barrel) as they had striker discs and I could make (and drill the reduced size firing pin hole needed and hardened/temper the disc) new striker discs from O-1 alloy steel and new strikers (firing pins) of the diameter of about .060" in order to reduce the risk of cartridge primer rupture as well as the inherent safety of the striker disc/striker stopping or reducing gas discharge back into the action from a ruptured cartridge primer.

However, your comment above causes me to consider that there are a large number of Simson double shotgun actions of those years that must have striker discs and that I have missed finding any. Will you be so kind as to elaborate further on how to identify these 1949 to 1990 Simson actions that can be used for double rile building. The Simson action would be significantly easier to build a DR from the standpoint of restocking and increased strength in the head of the butt stock (no sidelocks plates as well) over the CZ zp49 sidelock. My friend the late Bob H. of Iowa (Birdshooter) only built one zp49 actioned DR and the butt stock restocking issue was a real pain to him and he said that he would never build another one. I must say though, that the butt stock strength has not been an issue or problem for me, even on much higher pressures that what Bob would build a DR. The zp49 top lever coil spring container "box" was the strength killer for the head of the butt stock in Bob's mind. Bob actually sent the zp49 butt stock replacement to another for him to built it for Bob.

The need for striker discs on a DR and for those discs to be made properly and the associated firing pins (strikers) fitted properly to the inside and rear of these discs came home to me in a very dangerous event where my eyesight and my face was kept out of danger--maybe my life. During the regulation of a DR using a zp49 action of 1963 I was using some propellant that is known to be heat sensitive and many DR shooters shy away from using it, 3031. The time of the year was in August and in South Carolina and the ambient temp for that day was about 95 degrees F and I was under the shade of the roofed cover of the range's shooting benches. I had built this DR with very heavy barrel breech ends of 1.000" diameter extending from the breech forward towards the muzzles for about 3 inches where the taper began, and the barrels were made of 4140 alloy steel that I had tested to about 54,000 psi chamber pressure. I had fired about 8-10 rounds of the cartridges and was about to fire the last two cartridges for the day and had inserted the two new live cartridges into the DR barrels, when the range called for the shooters to stop shooting for about 5 minutes. I neglected to remove the two cartridges form the barrel chambers, but the DR was open and pointed down. When in 5 minutes shooting resumed and I fired off the rounds. I thought recoil was a bit brisk, but other than that I had no other indications that there was any problem with the the shots. When I opened the DR what I saw was terrible, as the cartridge base and remains of the primer came out in pieces. Further the face of the striker discs had deep gas erosion circles and pits even though they were made of hardened O-1, also the firing pin faces were similarly damaged. Subsequent examination of the action and barrels showed no issues and measurement of the fitting of the barrels to the breech face showed no issues and no cracks were found at the root of the action's standing breech. New striker discs and firing pins were made for the DR though. I used my cell phone to call my friend Shep Kelly up in Illinois as he is a forensic ballistic consultant. The resulting expectation was that the overheated cartridge had produced in about 65,000 psi of chamber pressure.

When I got home and disassembled the entire action there was not even the slightest evidence of any propellant gas that had escaped by the back of the firing pins into the action and onto the butt stock. Since then I have fired another 300 rounds of cartridges with the above service pressure.


My friend, the late Bob H. (who built the below photographed .405 Win DR) over the years discussed several times with me the absence of striker disc in his .405 Win Simson actioned DR. Like me he was concerned about primer rupture, but he decided that with the size of the head and the overall strength of the brass at the base end of the .405 and .45-70 cases that if he kept the cartridge pressure relative low the risk was reduced for a ruptured primer. Therefore he would not build a double rifle on shotgun actions using the large diameter shotgun firing pins for cartridges such as .375 H&H Flanged Mag NE pressure and up. Of course, the .375 H&H Flanged Mag NE is lower in chamber pressure as compared to its sister the .375 H&H belted mag NE.

On another note, Bob H. was strongly of the opinion that the retrofitting of striker discs into shotgun actions a poor and dangerous idea as it weakened the the action standing breech. From and engineering perspective it would be difficult if not impossible to disagree with Bob on this.

Bob' favorite double shotgun action for a "donor action" (as he like to call them) for a DR was the older Beretta' boxlock SxS's, but in the last years of his life he found extremely difficult to find any of these guns. His favorite DR cartridge was the .45-70. However, between the two cartridges, I would choose the .405 Win. "big medicine" cartridge.

Kindest Regards;
Steve

Edited by transvaal (30/04/19 01:28 AM)


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Chavez
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: crshelton]
      #327866 - 29/04/19 02:36 PM

Yes I would , thank you .

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lancaster
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #327886 - 30/04/19 05:44 AM

the name on the action is unimportant, could be simson, haenel, sauer&sohn, jagdwaffenwerk, bühag with or without the name of one of the smaller firms. all action were basically the same no matter how fine the engraving was latter. most of them and especially the shotguns dont having firing pin bushings.
this is another question. its not possible to show you the way to find such an action without looking into the company documents.

its only that all shotgun action actions in this time frame were the same like the actions used for combination guns and double guns so the action and the locking mechanism is able to deal with rifle cartridge pressure. that was told me by someone who know more about this.

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Chavez
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Reged: 31/10/13
Posts: 19
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: transvaal]
      #327889 - 30/04/19 07:49 AM

Been checking into this my self , apparently some makers in Germany didn't care for the disc strikers just more parts to deal with , also went to see a local gunsmith but he's 89 and in bad health so didn't get to talk long but when he was stationed in Germany he was a machinest in the armory , and they played around with wildcat rounds , he said we would load them Until we got a blown primer and the back down 12% and leave it , I asked him about the simson guns he said the officers would bring one in ever now and then , I asked about the groves in the action in the one I seen In Louisville , he said they were for a busted primer , in his opinion the Germans made the strongest actions . He thought I would be fine with a 405 or 450/400 as long as the work was good , and he said he would mill the groves 0.3 to 0.4 mm to the outside for safety in any rifle cartridge .,

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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #327896 - 30/04/19 09:56 AM

Chavez,
are you referring to grooves like these on my Beretta action?




Bob H used this action to make his .45-70 DR which I purchased from his estate. This was Bob's deer rifle for about 10 years and has nary a scratch on it. His regulation load was a jacketed 300 grain bullet at 1500+ feet per second and that is deadly on deer and hogs and very comfortable to shoot, even from a bench rest. The load manual rated the pressure at less than 16,000 psi.


This hog was around 300 pounds and it took only one shot.

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Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

Edited by crshelton (01/05/19 10:30 AM)


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Chavez
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Reged: 31/10/13
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Loc: Kentucky
Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: crshelton]
      #327900 - 30/04/19 12:20 PM

Yes , that's just like the ones in the Simson action I was talking about .

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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #328313 - 13/05/19 12:04 PM

Chavez,
Here is a look at the outside of that coin finished Beretta action:


It has 26 inch barrels and handles very well. Nice wood too; another preference of Bob's.
Naturally it has cocked chamber indicators, Greener cross bolt, and opens very easily.

Edited by crshelton (13/05/19 12:22 PM)


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MotelAlpha
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #328341 - 14/05/19 12:37 AM

Bob did great work at Very reasonable prices to boot. He is gone now and I was luck to have a 577 built for me by Bob...Its so well done thats is nearly impossible to see where the barrels join the mono-bloc. We used barrels I purchased from Lothar Walther...Fine gun!!... I have missed our long talks on the phone...almost like a brother.. His wife Marie said it was a good thing that the two of us didn't live closer...Hah

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Pro Deo et Pro Patria


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Chavez
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #328776 - 24/05/19 02:09 PM

I have got 2 barrel blanks ordered from Lothar Walther,4 to 6 week wait on them , getting the reamer from Ptg , I'm going with 400 Jeffery (450/400 ) iv been letting a young man hunt on my farm for a few years , he owns a cnc machine shop so he's going to help with some of the work, decided to build a monoblock so I can let the chamber area stay on plane instead of a taper the shotgun block has , , he helped me build a couple Mauser action rifles few years ago , 9.3x62 and a .275 Rigby ,

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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: Chavez]
      #328872 - 27/05/19 02:03 PM

My Simson .405 took a nice red deer hind this weekend and I am looking forward to the meat.

My guide was very experienced with South Texas hunting, but had never seen what a .405 can do; he remarked multiple times about the one shot kill and big hole in the chest. It did collapse in rather convincing manner.

Just came in from Hondo and will load pix later.


Meat now at Po Boys Game processors and due back in a week including all scraps made in to smoked German sausage- Yumm!

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

Edited by crshelton (28/05/19 01:00 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: crshelton]
      #328877 - 27/05/19 03:41 PM

crshelton, I can imagine so, with a .405.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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crshelton
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Re: German Simpson double rifle action [Re: NitroX]
      #328928 - 28/05/19 01:14 PM

The next hunt was near Hondo, Texas for a single cow elk on an overgrown 1,200 acre exotic ranch that was overrun with many species of other game including water buff, bison, African cattle, kudu, red sheep, whitetail, feral hogs, etc almost infinitum.

My guide and I entering an area where the elk had been seen:


We actually did jump the elk from her bed in that cover, but the brush blocked any shot at the glimpse of fleeing hide and rump. We worked that end of the property over until noon when we had to depart for Dallas and never got a clear shot at her. Not exactly drive by shooting! I will be back!

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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