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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels
      #328357 - 14/05/19 10:54 PM

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/hammer-forged-rifle-barrels/328799

Rifle shooters have been trying to figure out a way to mitigate the effects of heat for decades, and for good reason. Heat destroys barrels.

Pushing hot, burning gas down the bore causes the steel around it to rapidly transition between solid and liquid states. It melts a little bit each time the rifle fires. The portion of the barrel that is most vulnerable and sustains the most rapid wear is the first couple inches of rifling just in front of the cartridge’s case mouth.

If you need to shoot a lot and shoot fast, don’t pick cartridges with high case volume and small calibers. Pushing lots of powder down a tiny hole is the most damaging combination for heat-­induced wear. If the shooting sport or hunting scenario you participate in requires such a cartridge or creates the need for rapid fire, barrel selection becomes profoundly important.

Hammer Forging (CONT:)

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Daryl_S
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Ripp]
      #328363 - 15/05/19 03:04 AM

Good article, Art. However, I disagree on the covering statement that hammer forged barrels do not shoot much better than MOA, except with the loads they like.
I've had 2 CZ 527's in h.22 Hornet that shoot sub 1/2". I"m kinda pleased with that - and they still do that after 7,000rounds, perhaps that is due to the hammer forging along with only 3,300fps velocities. Nothing but pluses all the way around.
These would also make good head shooters on Kangaroos, given a decent bullet, of course.





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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rule303
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Ripp]
      #328367 - 15/05/19 07:55 AM

Ripp, that is a good article and gives us new ideas, like the effect of barrel contour, to think about.
However I am with Daryl on the accuracy stakes. With the exception of my 35Whelen which has a Walter Lothar barrel all my best shooters have hammer forged barrels. Also Blaser (and whoever the parent company is) use hammer forged barrels. Not heard of a Blaser that does not shot small groups. Same for Sako and Tikka barrels.

Edited by Rule303 (15/05/19 07:57 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Rule303]
      #328371 - 15/05/19 08:17 AM

I'm thinking the lower accuracy capability was simply used to generate more ink, thus words, thus pay per word.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Daryl_S
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Rule303]
      #328372 - 15/05/19 08:23 AM

I'm thinking the lower accuracy capability statement was simply used to generate more ink, thus words, thus pay per word, pay check. It might also have been included to generate discussion and thus the need for more words.


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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Daryl_S]
      #328379 - 15/05/19 11:46 AM

Quote:

I'm thinking the lower accuracy capability was simply used to generate more ink, thus words, thus pay per word.




I agree Daryl, I also have CZ's that are incredibly accurate--also about a dozen Remington's from back in the day that are also very accurate..

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Rule303]
      #328380 - 15/05/19 11:50 AM

Quote:

Ripp, that is a good article and gives us new ideas, like the effect of barrel contour, to think about.
However I am with Daryl on the accuracy stakes. With the exception of my 35Whelen which has a Walter Lothar barrel all my best shooters have hammer forged barrels. Also Blaser (and whoever the parent company is) use hammer forged barrels. Not heard of a Blaser that does not shot small groups. Same for Sako and Tikka barrels.




Yes the barrel contour is one item I found very interesting..and never really considered that a lot before..sure, everyone knows a pencil thin barrel will heat quickly..BUT???

I do have a Sako model 75 in 375H&H that does not set the world on fire with its accuracy.. actually thinking of having it recrowned, etc.. if that doesn't work, get a new barrel..


We do have 3 Tikka's however that shoot really well.. along with a Blaser..

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Ripp]
      #328382 - 15/05/19 12:04 PM

Quote:

Hammer-Forged Rifle Barrels
Tom Beckstrand - November 26, 2018

Pushing hot, burning gas down the bore causes the steel around it to rapidly transition between solid and liquid states. It melts a little bit each time the rifle fires.




Really? BS.

Quote:

The 6.5 Creedmoor barrel used in this test




Well there you are, if he had used the good old .30-06 he would have got far different, better results.

Quote:

I'm thinking the lower accuracy capability statement was simply used to generate more ink, thus words, thus pay per word, pay check. It might also have been included to generate discussion and thus the need for more words.





Some interesting points in the article, but Daryl sums up my opinion of so many of these articles. No wonder people no longer buy a lot of these printed magazines. Hopefully the actually printed articles are better.

BTW who here "mainly uses stainless steel barrels"?

I don't own a single one! Maybe I am a curmudgeon.

I also don't have a single heavy of match grade barrel, but I reckon the guys back in the 1950's knew things, get a thicker heavier barrel. It does not heat up as quickly and it doesn't whip around as much. Probably takes longer to "melt" as well.

Quote:

The test was pretty simple: Fire 20 rounds as fast as I could through each barrel




How often do people actually do this though?

When I used to bump into a mob of goats, or a bunch of pigs, and it was a large group and the group couldn't flee, then maybe.

And if shooting groups, but then again who shoots "as fast as they can"?

Maybe it is because of the "spray and pray that something hits the target" of some semi auto shooters?

When I was fifteen or sixteen. I urged a friend to buy a bolt action .22. No he got the actual brand I recommended him to buy, a Stirling .22 S/A with 15 shot magazine. We used to go out hunting rabbits. He would fire, again, again again, many shots. Miss, miss, miss. I would raise my rifle and fire once, and dead was the bunny. Learning with a single shot crappy .22 Lithgow, taught me to aim and shoot properly ...

Which brings me to my final bit of BS ... ... that article shows me why a good single shot is best. You don't need or can shoot twenty rounds rapifd fire as fast you can. You fire once, and hit the target. A lot of these single shots are so fantastically accurate as well.

BS ended. Not paid per word either.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (15/05/19 12:28 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: NitroX]
      #328389 - 15/05/19 01:24 PM

Your laughing emojis are good.

I have only 3 rifles (although 4 chamberings) with stainless bls. I've many more without stainless, even though I sold 3 steel bl'd rifles on Saturday at our gun show. I bought one new (to me), a BRNO Model 511 in lovely shape.

Funny thing about the stainless bl'd guns - they are all wildcats and from .172", .308/.224(both bls.) .375.

The most interesting one, is the predecessor to the .22 PPC, when Ferris Pindel and Dr.Lewis Palmisano (IIRC) were working with it. They found 7.62x39 brass available in Lapua brass, so went with it, instead of the IMP .220 Swift 1.5" case they started with. That is what I chambered up. Nice little round and I use Wilson .22 PPC hand dies with my Arbor press for loading it.
Nice accurate little round, a little less powerful than the .22 BR. which I also had in the 90's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Daryl_S]
      #328393 - 15/05/19 01:36 PM

Quote:

Your laughing emojis are good.




http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=95200&an=0&page=0&vc=1

Menu item at the end of the Recent messages menu line.

I always planned to add many more pages of emoji choices to that thread. Plans and plans, need more actions.

You have to use the IMAGE code, ie right click on the emoji, copy web address, and insert using an IMAGE code.

Daryl, a simple procedure but probably beyond some of our more needy members as we discussed on messages.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Daryl_S
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: NitroX]
      #328395 - 15/05/19 03:24 PM







--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rule303
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Daryl_S]
      #328400 - 15/05/19 07:49 PM

John what he says about the barrel metal melting is apparently true. He is talking microns in thickness and for less time than the flame is there. Hence throat erosion. From what I have read it is not so much on the first firing but more so on subsequent shots while barrel is hot. Takes a fair amount of powder or many shots to do this. The Bren gun had a chromed lined bore and did not suffer throat erosion like some other machine guns.

As you say, not likely to happen in a sporting situation unless you are bombing up a mob of pigs.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Rule303]
      #328404 - 15/05/19 10:26 PM

Melting however is BS. Wear and erosion is not "melting".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Rule303]
      #328406 - 15/05/19 11:17 PM

Quote:

John what he says about the barrel metal melting is apparently true. He is talking microns in thickness and for less time than the flame is there. Hence throat erosion. From what I have read it is not so much on the first firing but more so on subsequent shots while barrel is hot. Takes a fair amount of powder or many shots to do this. The Bren gun had a chromed lined bore and did not suffer throat erosion like some other machine guns.

As you say, not likely to happen in a sporting situation unless you are bombing up a mob of pigs.




Agree with that.. and yes, using a high tech bore scope while at HS Precision, saw the effects of some of my rapid shooting through the years..the throat erosion was pretty bad..

One thing I took from this report was the fact I have read and been told for years that fluted barrels cool faster than a standard barrel..per this test, NOT the case..

As to stainless barrels..YES, I have lots of them.. probably close to a dozen or more.. if it's a rifle I am using a lot in the mtns, I normally go stainless..always felt they were better when in a lot of weather..rain, snow, cold, warm, etc....if it's a prairie dog gun or one I use for calling in game, no, not so much..I generally cerakote the stainless big game ones to reduce glare/shine..


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xausa
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Ripp]
      #328414 - 16/05/19 04:45 AM

Back when I was doing a lot of competitive shooting, mainly in caliber .308 Winchester, I used to keep close track of the number of rounds fired through each barrel and when the accuracy at 600 yards started to drop off, usually around 2000 rounds, I would have the barrel cut off at the breech end, set back and rechambered. Usually the rechambered barrel shot better than the same barrel did originally. I shot my first clean target at 600 yards with such a rechambered barrel. Starting with an original barrel length of 26", a barrel was usually good for around 4000 rounds and would still keep a group in the "10" ring at 300 yards.

I am convinced that shooting a reasonable number of shots down a barrel, while damaging the throat, actually improves the condition of the rest of the barrel, a sort of lapping process which over time removes most of the irregularities. The average hunting rifle, except for varmint rifles, never gets close to that kind of round count.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: xausa]
      #328422 - 16/05/19 10:07 AM

My Palma Match .308 rifle was still shooting well enough to compete in prone matches to 200metes, at the 15,000 round count, but I had to go to 190gr. MK's.
The throat had advanced some 7 to 8 inches ahead of the breech.
I cut the barrel to 22" (5" off) and rechambered it for the .303 Pygmy(not my name), which manages to shoot 1/2" to 3/4" with 130's and 125's, yet the rifling does not start within 2" or so of the case mouth. You can see the land memory in the steel, but "memory" is all it is.
That was a chrome moly 4-groove cut rifled tube, pretty sure.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: Hammer forged barrels..test shows how heat effects barrels [Re: Daryl_S]
      #328437 - 16/05/19 07:34 PM

I have a 300RUM that I have shot a lot..over the course of 12 years..when scoped..yes, the throat showed definite signs of throat erosion..but the barrel was still in very good shape..knowing how I had used that gun on several occasions I found that both impressive and interesting..

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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