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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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mbogo3
.275 member


Reged: 26/03/10
Posts: 54
Loc: Alberta Canada
MS 1903 headspace
      #327568 - 22/04/19 12:02 PM

I am looking at a two trigger 1903 in 6.5 and am concerned about the possibility of excessive headspace.I don't have hands on inspection of the firearm.If present how can this be corrected? The owner claims it is .264 groove but I am suspicious. Asking $1500 Canadian not D+T.

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JDL
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/10
Posts: 247
Loc: Louisiana
Re: MS 1903 headspace [Re: mbogo3]
      #327588 - 22/04/19 10:40 PM

The only way I know of to correct excessive headspace is to set the barrel back and rechamber or replace old barrel. If you are a handloader, it can be overcome by necking empty brass up to a larger size and then sizing back down with the 6.5 die, creating a false shoulder, until you get a crush fit on the brass.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: MS 1903 headspace [Re: JDL]
      #327593 - 23/04/19 04:02 AM

If you are not a handloader and wish to shoot only factory ammo, then if the rifle has excessive headspace, you can likely
get away with some excessive headspace - if the rifle fires reliably.
If it is too bad, the gun might not fire all the time.

JDL notes the only way of correcting excessive headspace.

What makes you think the rifle has excessive headspace?]

If a rifle does have excessive headspace, like my Husky M46 9.3x57 with .019" headspace (.012" over standard SAAMI).

JDL notes the way of correcting the brass for that rifle.

This is what I did.
Note - 1st case is a brand new R-P 8m Mauser case.
The 2nd case is the 8mm Mauser necked up to 9.3 - note the neck length.
The 3rd case is an 8mm Mauser case necked straight.
The 4th case is the straight case necked for a crush fit, ZERO headspace in that rifle's chamber. Note neck length compared to the second case. THAT difference in .019".

The dies I use for necking ctgs. straight - in one pass- no failures.



Ctg. Lineup of Steps: #1 through #4



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2376
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: MS 1903 headspace [Re: DarylS]
      #327614 - 23/04/19 06:34 PM

Excessive headspace is not uncommon on Mannlichers and Mannlicher Schoenauers, I have a number of them and all bar one has excessive head space, 0.018" in several cases. This is often accompanied by cratering on the bolt face around the primer pocket.
If you are a hand loader then you can correct the problem to a degree by resizing the brass as described above. If however you are not a hand loader and want to use old or new factory ammo then you will need to correct the rifle.

First however you need to find out whether or not you have excessive headspace. Go-No Go Gauges only work if you are within headspace but if you have excessive headspace they will not tell you by how much. The easiest way to do this is with clear packing tape which happens to be 0.002" thick and compressed (at least in Australia). Cut a small square slightly bigger than the case head size and then firmly press it onto the case head of the ammunition that you intend to use. Then take a box cutter with a brand new blade and trim off the excess packing tape. Place the cartridge in the chamber and close the bolt. If the bolt closes easily cut another square and press it on top of the first one and again chamber the round and close the bolt. Keep doing this until you can just close the bolt firmly. Measure the stack height of the tape and subtract 0.001" and you will have your head space measurement. This method is easy and very accurate as the tape will not compress any more and you get an accurate reading.

You then need to work out where the excess headspace is, ie. in the chamber or on the bolt head or both. To check the clearance between the bolt face and the barrel face you need to remove the extractor and the ejector from the bolt head and remove the firing pin. Cover the bolt face with a layer of packing tape and trim. close the bolt on an empty chamber and continue placing layers of packing tape on the bolt face until the bolt is hard to close. Measure that and this will give you the clearance between the bolt head and barrel face. Subtract this amount from the first measurement and this will give you the amount of headspace in the chamber.

However before you go and correct the headspace you need to see whether or not the barrel shoots. You can do this easily by using some factory ammo or hand loads. You will need to build up a disc on the rear of the cartridge equivalent to the original headspace measurement minus 0.004" to give you a desirable amount of headspace and allow the bolt to close properly. Then cut a cross through the tape where the primer is to allow the firing pin to penetrate without resistance. Do this for ten rounds and go and shoot the rifle to see whether or not the barrel is any good. This way you can check the rifle for accuracy without having to alter the brass and you won't get head separations and split cases. All my rifles have oversized grooves but shoot normal 0.264" bullets accurately but if not than you can try some 0.267" bullets and see what happens, but only if you have oversized grooves which you will have to measure to determine.

If the rifle shoots like a dog and you are sure that it is the barrel than you can re-barrel the rifle and correct the headspace with the new barrel. If however the rifle shoots really well and has special interesting proof marks which you want to keep than You will need to correct the bolt face and on a Mannlicher with rimmed rounds you can also correct the barrel if it has excess headspace there. This can be done by laser welding the shoulder for the rim and then setting it up in the lathe and turn a new shoulder. The bolt head can also be laser welded and than ground to the correct thickness but you will need to make an accurate jig to hold the bolt head while machining. You can also have the bolt face hard chromed and then ground to size but this will not take any blueing so if you want a blued bolt face than you will need to laser weld. If the bolt face is cratered than this can be fixed with laser welding at the same time. In all cases you will need a jig. You will need to measure the firing pin hole run out as well as firing pin hole size with pin gauges. These can be a bit of an odd size and as you will need to machine the hole after welding to remove the weld that has filled the edge of the hole, the easiest way is to set the jig up in a rotary table and clock up the firing pin hole and than use a carbide and mill that is smaller than the hole and machine it out until you just touch the original bore.

I realise this might sound a little tricky and requires a lot of machinery but it is the only way that I have found to fix the problem if you want to keep the original barrel and sights etc.
Depending on how much you have to build up the head you may need to also check firing pin protrusion and correct if necessary.

I have found that once the headspace is corrected even Kynoch brass shoots without any stretching of the brass. I was lucky enough to pick up 11 boxes of original Kynock 6.5x53R factory ammo and did the above test with the tape and fired the ammo, checking for any stretching and there was none. I then cut a case in half length ways and measured the wall thickness and there was no thinning even though the brass was 0.010" thinner than my Winchester brass for my 338 Win Mag.
I believe a lot of the negative press that Kynoch ammo got for splitting and head separation was because of excessive headspace which the owner of the rifle had no idea was present. I bet that there are a lot of old sporters out there with excessive headspace but the owners don't realise it.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2376
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: MS 1903 headspace [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #327615 - 23/04/19 07:59 PM

Of course another option is to make a new bolt head from scratch and correct the headspace that way, however if you have matching markings on the bolt head that you want to keep than the only way is to correct what you have. There is also a lot of work in making a bolt head and you will still need a jig to hold the bolt head as the desired thickness will need to be achieved using a surface grinder which will also make sure that the bolt face is parallel to the shoulder on the back of the head which contacts the bolt body.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Vladymere
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: MS 1903 headspace [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #327629 - 24/04/19 03:19 AM

Waidmannsheil,

Why is excessive headspace common on Mannlicher Schoenauers? Where they made that way or have the receivers stretched or developed lug setback? Or is ammmo commonly made with setback shoulders?

Vlad


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2376
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: MS 1903 headspace [Re: Vladymere]
      #327633 - 24/04/19 08:05 AM

Vlad,
stretched receivers and lug set back are definitely non existent at least with all the ones that I own or have looked at, and this includes a heavily used military action. The Mannlicher cartridges were all pretty low pressure. Throat erosion was a far greater problem especially with English retailed sporters which would have used British ammo and not necessarily been cleaned straight away or all that well.

One rifle, a Model 1910 retailed by Haliday & Co. is nothing more than a rifle straight from Steyr with the makers name engraved on the barrel and the rear sights changed to English open-V style, so the rifle which has 0.018" headspace came like that from the factory.

I also have to Model 1895 Dutch sporters in 356 Mannlicher, one a Jeffery and the other a Gibbs. The Jeffery which is in very good condition has 0.014" headspace and the Gibbs which is being restored has 0.018" headspace. The Jeffery may have been re-barreled although I doubt it as on those models the original barrels were usually used and re-profiled and new sights added etc. I spoke to Mark Cruddington about the Gibbs and he told me that Gibbs definitely used to use the original barrels and re-profile them followed by new sights, and on this one the original military sights were used although with a new base and leaves as well as platinum inlaid lines. So the rifles left the factory, either Steyr or Jeffery (or whoever made the rifle for Jeffery) with the headspace as it is now. The only one that I have with minimal headspace of 0.008" is a Model 1903 retailed by Beesley which has had a lot more work done to it before being sold, and it shoots very well.

All my Model 70 Winchesters have had between 0.004" and 0.008" headspace.

I only have one Mauser but I will check it tonight, I have not fired it yet.

Stories of case head separation and or case splitting were common in the old days whether military or sporting and I strongly believe that in many if not all cases the rifle was to blame and not the brass which was usually blamed. Poor quality brass, crystallization, age hardening etc are always the suggested reasons however the Kynoch brass that I have is made in the early fifties and should by all accounts exhibit all those problems especially the poor quality brass and age hardening which is usually attributed to Kynoch brass, when fired in a rifle with 0.004" headspace shows no sign of anything, the cases are perfect after firing. No stretching, no thinning, no splitting, no head separation.

It would be interesting to see if some of the members here were to check some of their sporters for headspace what the results would be. Whether Mauser, Mannlicher, Model 70 or Lee-speeds.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Vladymere
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: MS 1903 headspace [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #327636 - 24/04/19 10:22 AM

Waidmannsheil,

Thanks for the reply.

Vlad


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