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AlanD
.275 member

Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia

Vickers Rifles .242 .318 .404 Survey
#327538 - 21/04/19 02:42 PM

I am interested in the bolt action center fire sporting rifles made by Vickers and from 1927 Vickers Armstrong, between the wars.
The three main calibers offered would appear to be .242, .318 and .404. However, there may have been other calibers offered such as .30/06.

I am building up a data base of serial numbers to try to estimate the total number of these sporting bolt action rifles that Vickers marketed. I have read that the actions were made by DWM the rest of the rifle being completed by the trade rather than Vickers.

Therefore if you have a Vickers sporting bolt action rifle, please post the details here, any photos showing proof marks especially appreciated. Many thanks.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Loc: Arkansas, USA

Re: Vickers Rifles .242 .318 .404 Survey [Re: AlanD]
#327552 - 21/04/19 10:21 PM

I have seen two 404's that were on P-14 actions.

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Vickers Rifles .242 .318 .404 Survey [Re: MikeRowe]
#327560 - 22/04/19 03:51 AM

good luck with your work, its worth to research this

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AlanD
.275 member

Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Vickers Rifles .242 .318 .404 Survey [Re: MikeRowe]
#327567 - 22/04/19 10:57 AM

Quote:

I have seen two 404's that were on P-14 actions.

Were these marked as being made by Vickers?

The only center fire bolt action rifles listed in the Vickers catalogue from the mid 1920's shows Mauser action rifles (I know the P14 action is essentially a Mauser design), rather than a converted P14 action. In fact the catalogue states the action is specifically made for the .404, which I assume is Mauser's magnum action.

In reality it appears that these bolt action sporting rifles did not achieve great sales success judging by the lack of examples that exist today.They did appear to have some luck selling into game parks in Africa. I guess there was a fair bit of competition from long established makers such as Rigby, Cogswell & Harrison, Westley Richards and so forth.

I have got a data base of about 60 serial numbers for the shotguns made by Vickers and Vickers Armstrong, the same is true here in that the number of sidelocks they made was in the six to seven hundred range over a 20 year period or less than one a week. So for a company the size of Vickers it was small beer. They did sell boxlocks, the trade makers of which I am trying to get more information on, but again sales were in the hundreds not thousands. The single barrel Vickers Vanguard did achieve more success with at least 6,000 being sold. However, I would think this was vastly outsold by the equivalent priced Webley & Scott single barrel gun, never mind the Midland Gun Company's single barrel and the H&R gun.

The biggest seller for Vickers and VA was undoubtedly there range of .22 martini target and game rifles, without these I am sure they would have thrown the towel in as far as manufacturing/selling sporting guns.

Regards
AlanD
Sydney

Edited by AlanD (22/04/19 03:09 PM)

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA

Re: Vickers Rifles .242 .318 .404 Survey [Re: AlanD]
#330974 - 09/08/19 11:33 AM

Hello Alan,
Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers likely made for/by Vickers-Armstrong and retailed by Cogswell & Harrison, Ltd. on or after 1932.
Serial number 4017 (a Vickers serial number because Cogswell & Harrison says that they used 5 digit numbers?)

find details here in "Rifle" Forum:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=330933&an=0&page=0#Post330933

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Edited by 3DogMike (09/08/19 11:36 AM)

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Loc: Nelson, New Zealand

Re: Vickers Rifles .242 .318 .404 Survey [Re: 3DogMike]
#330977 - 09/08/19 04:12 PM

The quote below from Pondoro Taylor provides an example where the Vicker's 404 bolt action rifle was used but I cannot imagine native game scouts were armed with genuine magnum Mauser's when most of the other manufacturers of the day used standard M98 Mausers opened up for the 404 cartridge except of course Rigby who was the sole, and by all accounts expensive, agent for the Magnum Mauser in England until Mauser released the big action to the general trade. I had always imagined when reading references to the Vickers 404 Mauser that it was a standard M98 action but admittedly I have seen no evidence to confirm either way.

“The Game Warden of Tanganyika (now Tanzania) who started his hunting career shooting buffalo for their hides in Portuguese East (now Mozambique) with a rifle of this caliber, found it so entirely satisfactory that he has armed all of his native game scouts in the Elephant Control Department with Vickers’ .404 magazine rifles.”

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AlanD
.275 member

Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia

Re: Vickers Rifles .242 .318 .404 Survey [Re: eagle27]
#331851 - 03/09/19 08:51 PM

Quote:

The quote below from Pondoro Taylor provides an example where the Vicker's 404 bolt action rifle was used but I cannot imagine native game scouts were armed with genuine magnum Mauser's when most of the other manufacturers of the day used standard M98 Mausers opened up for the 404 cartridge except of course Rigby who was the sole, and by all accounts expensive, agent for the Magnum Mauser in England until Mauser released the big action to the general trade. I had always imagined when reading references to the Vickers 404 Mauser that it was a standard M98 action but admittedly I have seen no evidence to confirm either way.

“The Game Warden of Tanganyika (now Tanzania) who started his hunting career shooting buffalo for their hides in Portuguese East (now Mozambique) with a rifle of this caliber, found it so entirely satisfactory that he has armed all of his native game scouts in the Elephant Control Department with Vickers’ .404 magazine rifles.”

The rifle has London proof marks which I would expect to see on a Vickers rifle. It has a four digit serial number which again I would expect to see, on a Vickers rifle.
I have only personally examined one Vickers branded - I say branded as they did not actually make them as such – rifle, and this was years ago before I was really interested in them. So I do not know for sure if they hand engraved the serial number on the trigger guard. This seems to be something a gunmaker/ retailer would do if they wanted to apply their own stock or serial number to the rifle, such as Wilkinson’s and other firms. I am not sure Vickers would need to do this as they were more of a wholesaler and manufacturer, selling guns to the trade.
If Vickers did sell the rifle I would have thought it would have “.242 Vickers” marketed as the calibre rather than the more generic “.242 Express”.
The marking of Cogswell & Harrison’s name and address on the barrel would seem to imply it went through their hands. The address indicating sometime between 1932 and 1939, so within the Vickers rifle production of 1920 to 1940. However, I do not see Cogswell’s buying off Vickers as they were selling a lot more centre fire sporting rifles than Vickers ever did.
Its interesting that Cogswell say they used a five digit serial number and not a four digit number. I have been keeping a data base of the brass one inch signal pistols made in the Great War by the trade, including, W.W. Greener, Webley & Scott, Chubb, Wolseley and Cogswell & Harrison. All of them started at S/N 1, except C&H who started at 50,001 for some unknown reason!

So there are more questions than answers really, lets hope some new information comes along one day.

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