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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
My new Toy
      #327161 - 12/04/19 03:20 AM

Hello this is my first post.

I recently got my first double; I think a very interesting one.

It is a hammer underlever made in May of 1884. The underlever and trigger guard have about 90% bluing while the rest of the action and side plates are just a clean steel patina. It has the normal small ivory bead front sight and a larger fold up ivory bead night sight, with one standing and two folding rear sights marked 200 and 250. The barrels have about 90% faded bluing.

It is marked on the side of the action just below the barrels “Charge 5 drams, case 3 ¼ inches. The left and right sideplates are marked “Holland & Holland”. The top of the left barrel is marked “Winner of all the field rifle trials, London 1883”. The top of the right barrel is marked “Holland & Holland 98 New Bond Street, London.

The action is marked, on the inside right and left flats below the barrels with the serial number 8XXX, along with a Crown over V.

Each barrel is marked on the round portion of the barrel with the serial number 8XXX. On the flat underside of the barrels they are marked with a Crown over an interlocked CP, a large S, the number 40, a Crown over V, and a Lion over what appears to be a fancy cursive G. Any experts on proof marks that can interpret those marks for me?

The stock has a cheekpiece for a left handed shooter (which I am), and a leather covered recoil pad that is hard as a rock!

The bore in the right barrel is almost like new, while the left barrel shows considerable wear.

Now the mysteries of the gun. The markings on the left side of the action indicate 5 drams of powder and a 3 ¼” case. The 5 dram load (136 grains) was standard for a 3” case, with the 3 ¼” case normally being loaded with 5.2 drams. (142 grains). Why a 5 dram load in a 3 ¼” case?

The gun as it sits today does not have 3 ¼” chambers. The chambers are 3” long. During the last 135 years has it had a second set of barrels made for it?

Why is the left barrel so much more worn than the right? Most shooters tended to fire the front trigger first, so normally the right barrel suffered more wear. Why is this gun different?

I shot it with the 3” cases, and 440 gr Woodleigh bullets loaded to ~1750 fps and at 60 yards it made a group of four shots (2 right, 2 left) about 1”x 3.5”, about 1” above the point of aim. I’m thrilled to death with that group.


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327165 - 12/04/19 05:36 AM

A Holland and Holland.......sweet!
Nice group you shot.

Some things you left out of your post:
- PICTURES!
OK, seriously
- May we assume your rifle is a .500 Express (either 3” or 3 1/4”)?
- have you done a chamber cast to confirm the 3”, and/or slugged the bores?
- you shot it with smokeless? ie: Nitro for Black

Those proof marks are standard London proof from the black powder era; View, Provisional, and Definitive.
The “40” is the “bore” proof measurement in gauge (.488”). A very tight .50 caliber by modern standards.
The “S” I have no idea without pictures.

If you have not slugged or otherwise actually measured the groove-groove diameter of your barrels it would be a good idea to do so. Your barrels might be very undersized for shooting standard diameter .510 Woodleigh’s. This would have nothing to do with whether the rounds chamber as loaded because the chambers in those days were often quite generous in dimension due in part to the old coiled brass cases that were available even when there was newer drawn brass case ammunition available.

Certainly possible that a replacement set of barrels was made in 3”.
The 5 Dram marking along with the 3-1/4? Well, Holland’s may have done a special 5 Dram load regulation. Bespoke loads were common to different gunmakers back then.
It would be worth contacting H&H to find out what they have in their records.

Oh, BTW: the group here loves pictures, I does not really exist without pictures!

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: My new Toy [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327169 - 12/04/19 06:34 AM


Welcome!.

Pictures please..

Otherwise it didn`t happened..:LOL

With the info provided it seems the gun has been Rebarreled. Otherwise I would be concerned shooting .509" Woodleighs in a .500cal blackpowder gun.

The .500 express was loaded with so many different load combinations, caselength etc more than any caliber books could be written about that caliber alone. Most .500ex were marked "38" before 1887 then they were marked ."500ex".
A friend of mine has a .500 H&H from 1883 similar to yours in .500cal marked "38" with a 3" case. The rifling is shallow suggesting is was for a Paperpatch bullet.


Congratulations with your H&H

Edited by rigbymauser (12/04/19 07:29 AM)


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327170 - 12/04/19 06:36 AM

Welcome and congrats on the purchase..

YES, please post pictures when you have a minute.. those barrels have to cool down sometime..

Thank you....

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: My new Toy [Re: Ripp]
      #327190 - 12/04/19 11:51 AM

Added opinion:
If this rifle WAS rebarreled from 3-1/4” case to the 3” case then based on the intact proof marks stamped as “40” gauge the present barrels still date to before 1887.
You really need research of their records from Holland & Holland.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: My new Toy [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327195 - 12/04/19 12:40 PM

If you have trouble posting photos, send them to me

nitro AT nitroexpress.com

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327197 - 12/04/19 01:40 PM

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Actually I immediately called the Dallas gun room and a nice gentleman (who I could barely understand)took the time to look up my gun and read it to me. There was no mention of the caliber at all, which seemed to puzzle him. It did mention the left handed stock, the long top tang and sling swivels but not much other of value.

I then wrote to the London office thinking they might actually have a historian who might know something about the history of these old guns. I got back, (after several weeks) a reply basically telling me to bugger off, they had no time to help.

Purchased with the rifle was 20 rounds loaded (by Ken Owen in 2011) with Woodleigh 440gr bullets at ~1650 fps.(54gr 4198 with wad) These loads put one left and one right shot 2.5" apart 2" above the point of aim. Not too bad but not as good as my loads.

The chambers were measured, by me, at 3" long. The bores measure ~.507" for the left barrel and ~.509" for the right barrel, both at the muzzle. Both barrels have some fouling which might be effecting the measurements. Neither barrel seems to have been touched by a cleaning patch since new! I'm working on that also.

No pictures right now but I'll work on that.

No one can venture a reason for the large "S" included with the proof marks?


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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327221 - 13/04/19 08:38 AM

Skybolt - If you send me a PM with the Serial number I will try to find some info if my old friend is still working at H&H

He has always been very helpful to me

TH44


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: TH44]
      #327244 - 14/04/19 09:15 AM

TH44...I sent you a PM with the number you asked for. Thanks

I measured the bores more carefully today. 1" in front of the chambers the right measures .510" and the left measures .509" in both cases the bore measured .500".

Based on experience gained loading for the 50-110 WCF I worked up loads using the 440gr Woodleigh bullet, with 4759 and 5744 powder. These were 50gr 4759, which chronographed at 1737 fps at an estimated 19,900psi. This is the load I fired for groups and was quite well regulated. The other load I developed (because those SOB's at Hodgdon stopped making 4759) was 56gr of 5744. This load chronographed in the right barrel at 1728 fps, and the left barrel at 1721 fps. With an estimated pressure of 19,800 psi. Pretty darn consistent.(both loads using .5" backer rod wads and mag primers)

IMR 4759 works wonderfully in these long cases. In fact I think it is the same as the powder Winchester loaded in the 50-110 300gr express loads giving 2200fps. I'm really disappointed that it has been discontinued. 5744 works pretty good, but not as clean as 4759.

According to my calculations 55gr of 4759 would exactly duplicate the old nitro for black load using cordite (55gr for 1900 fps @ 23,900 psi) But I don't think I'm going to try it in my 135 year old very valuable toy. There is just no benefit that would equal the potential cost of such an experiment.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327245 - 14/04/19 10:23 AM

If you are happy with the grouping, fine and dandy.

If the gun is in really good shape, I'd be attempting for factory load duplication.

If a little rough, learn to shoot it as-is. It isn't out much.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: My new Toy [Re: DarylS]
      #327246 - 14/04/19 11:25 AM

Mr. Bolt,
Keep in mind that the velocities listed from the old days were not absolutely accurate, they inflated numbers just the same as ammo companies in modern times. Also, you make no mention of your rifles barrel length, this can have a bearing on acceptable regulating velocities as well because the advertised velocities in the era were typically taken with 28” or 30” barrels. So trying for “factory” velocity combined with acceptable regulation with, say, a 26” barrel is a fools errand.
As Graeme Wright notes in his book (I paraphrase), if it regulates to satisfaction then your velocities are what they are.

NOTE:
The Graeme Wright book notes 56 grains of H4198 (with dacron filler) and the Woodleigh .500 cal 440 grain bullet at 1850’/sec as one of several loads that are “average regulating loads”.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327303 - 15/04/19 12:23 PM

You are indeed correct sir, about the barrel length. I had not thought about that aspect.

My gun has 25.875" barrels. So if you convert the so called "factory" ballistics (1900 fps in a 28"/30" barrel) to what can be expected from my shorter barrels, my loads are pretty close to the factory ballistics. Perhaps a load of 52gr of 4759 will push my velocity to just over 1800 fps. I'll have to give that some thought.

FWIW in my gun, 56gr of 4198 comes out at ~1600 fps. A chronograph comes in mighty handy for this work.


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327377 - 17/04/19 09:14 AM

I plan on having some pictures after Easter.

Another up date on the bore diameter situation. It kept sticking in the back of my mind why would the barrels be marked 40 gauge if they were .510". I can't imagine H&H making some kind of mistake like that. So I switched my measuring tool, and shoved soft lead plugs all the way thru both barrels....after very careful measurement both bore come out as .505"!
So obviously no more .510" Woodleighs will go down my barrels. Apparently the 440gr Woodlieghs are very soft and were able to swedge themselves down to .505" without busting something, but I will not take that chance again.

Hawk bullets makes .505" SP bullets in several weights. I'll try some .505" 400gr projectiles with the 50gr 4759 powder charge and see how they do. Pressure should be less and velocity greater....we will see.


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327610 - 23/04/19 12:20 PM

Nitro...I got some pictures but I need an e-mail address to send them to ya, so you can post them.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39055
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327618 - 23/04/19 09:25 PM

Quote:

Nitro...I got some pictures but I need an e-mail address to send them to ya, so you can post them.




Yes. Work it out!

Quote:

If you have trouble posting photos, send them to me

nitro AT nitroexpress.com




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: NitroX]
      #327619 - 23/04/19 10:14 PM

My e-mail....Gmail does not recognize your address.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39055
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327620 - 23/04/19 10:24 PM

You have to subsititue an @ for the AT and remove the spaces .... sheesh ..... I don't want hundreds of spam emails everytime I post an email address, so post one easily changeable which the spam bots can't recognise ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327744 - 26/04/19 05:51 PM

Quote:

Nitro...I got some pictures but I need an e-mail address to send them to ya, so you can post them.




This works (click link): Post Photos to NE

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #327937 - 01/05/19 08:42 AM

I have some .505" 440gr RNSP bullets on the way from Hawk bullets.
Incredibly accommodating are those folks.
Andy said they would pretty much build whatever I needed.


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #327961 - 02/05/19 05:29 AM

Pictures......?

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: 3DogMike]
      #327964 - 02/05/19 08:37 AM

NitroX has them, hopefully to post soon.

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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #328142 - 08/05/19 10:40 PM

NitroX has had my pictures of the new gun for some time now, and for unknown reasons has not posted them.
If anyone else would like to volunteer to post them please let me know and I'll e-mail them to you.


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39055
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #328144 - 08/05/19 11:53 PM

Quote:

NitroX has had my pictures of the new gun for some time now, and for unknown reasons has not posted them.
If anyone else would like to volunteer to post them please let me know and I'll e-mail them to you.




Yes forget about it with that attitude.

I said remind me if I forget ... didn't mean the next day ... and again a day after that ....

Been busy with an election and stuff. Haven't hardly been home for a month ... all my business and not yours ...

If you want something done for free and fast, there's this thing called doing it yourself. Actually learn something ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (09/05/19 12:09 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39055
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: My new Toy [Re: NitroX]
      #328146 - 09/05/19 02:21 AM

Well I offered so here they are ...











--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: My new Toy [Re: NitroX]
      #328149 - 09/05/19 02:36 AM

John, don’t blame you for the irritation........too bad that some guys just want to be spoon fed.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: 3DogMike]
      #328158 - 09/05/19 04:41 AM

Does anybody know what the large "S" next to the 40 stands for?

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: My new Toy [Re: 3DogMike]
      #328182 - 10/05/19 12:53 AM

Yes, it gets irritating when users declare, "I can't post pictures." As though there is something magic or uncertain about doing it. Just lazy and don't want to learn.

Can't never could.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: CptCurl]
      #328197 - 10/05/19 07:04 AM

So I see that this has become about me and not a fine old rifle. OK

Let's set the record straight.

I didn’t ask for anything, free or fast, nor did I ask to be spoon fed. NitroX offered (on April 12)....now it's really simple, if you are not going to follow thru then don’t make the offer.

Instead of getting all pissy a gentleman would have explained that he was simply too busy right now to make good on his unsolicited offer of help.

Contrary to his implication, it was ~13 days from when he got the E-mail with the pictures until I asked if anyone else could post them...making an assumption the individual had either lost interest or was too busy.

I did not solicit any help nor did I start the nastiness.

Now does anyone care to hazard a guess on what the meaning of the large S is near the 40 on the bottom of the barrels?


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #328198 - 10/05/19 07:51 AM

Skybolt.

We are ofcouse interested in your doublerifle...make no mistake about this.

If sending a simpel email with some attached images is difficult...get the person next to you to do it for you.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: My new Toy [Re: rigbymauser]
      #328217 - 10/05/19 03:59 PM

No idea what the S means, nor the 40.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: DarylS]
      #328245 - 11/05/19 09:48 AM

The 40 is the bore diameter (gauge).
The "S" is ?????


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Hunter4752001
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Reged: 25/01/10
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Loc: Australia
Re: My new Toy [Re: skybolt]
      #328247 - 11/05/19 11:39 AM

Hi Skybolt.

Congrats on your new toy. Not my area of expertise however your proof marks are explained in http://proofmarks.tripod.com/englishproofs.html . Go down to the section "British Proof Marks 1868 to date" In particular the column for London proofs. My limited interpretation is that it is only proofed for black powder not nitro.

Unfortunately it dosen't give any illumination on the "40 S" markings.


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TH44
.375 member


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Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: My new Toy [Re: Hunter4752001]
      #328264 - 12/05/19 08:31 AM

Skybolt
My apologies for not following through on my offer of asking my contact in H&H for your rifle, as you say I have had too much work even to contact him properly
I should have contacted you
I am not sure if he has retired or not but have had no success in finding him
I am in Malta this week and will try to sort something for you when I get back to the UK
Please stick with the forum we all want to be of help if we can
Th44

Edited by TH44 (12/05/19 08:33 AM)


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy [Re: TH44]
      #328267 - 12/05/19 01:02 PM

Thanks for the update.

Any effort on your part is deeply appreciated.

Wouldn't you think it would have more than one entry in the books to account for the barrel work that was obviously performed sometime after it was originally shipped? Winchester and Colt both made entries to indicate when a gun was returned for factory repair or improvements.

I just got in my supply of .505" diameter bullets (440gr) and will do some chronograph work nest week, followed by seeing how well it is regulated.
KM


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: My new Toy......The Enigmatic "S" [Re: skybolt]
      #328301 - 13/05/19 05:50 AM

I have found reference likely explaining the "S" stamped on SKYBOLT's rifle.

Gun Digest 1977 edition; "A History of Proof Marks - Gun Proof in England", article begins page 161.

Page 165, referencing the Proof Act of 1868; paragraph titled "Special Rules":
"......Another special category covered British Government Arms or those of the East India Company which had been declared surplus and sold. If these bore the letter S, meaning safe or serviceable stamped over.......they were considered legally proved".

So possibly originally an East India Company rifle that was stamped with the S and then resold.
Now according to Encyclopedia Britannica the actual "East India Company" ceased to be independent in 1873, and thereafter lived on as an adjunct to the British Government. Not British Army but maybe originally British civil service related? Only H&H would know.

My iPad and IMGUR are not playing well with the internet right now so I cannot post the pictures of the relevant section of the article.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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skybolt
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/19
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
Re: My new Toy......The Enigmatic "S" [Re: 3DogMike]
      #328311 - 13/05/19 11:05 AM

That is fascinating. Possibly guns to protect workers gathering "stuff" in the jungle from Tigers etc, and/or to shoot game animals for meat to feed these same workers.
Thanks for the info.


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