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iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Few ?s
      #32704 - 06/06/05 07:34 PM

I have an affixiation with recoil; I can not get enough of it. I love rifles that handle like shotguns should; fast and dead on. Thus, the double rifle is the Holy Grail of firearms for me. It has all the properties that I want in a rifle, but the price tag that is currently out of my reach. I put myself on a ten-year program to chip away slowly at funds pot for a fine English rifle. I have studied every piece of media I've come across on the subject. I've stood in the Westley Richards gun room drooling. (The 9.3X74R Francotte Boxlock was the absolute perfection of fit to my relatively small build, and a goregous firearm.) I know far less about the subject of doubles than I would like to. I would appreciate any input that I might be able to recieve from the members on a few (probably simple and mundane) questions.

Based upon experiences owning and dealing with the big English makers (Purdey, H&H, WR, ect.), which is everyones personal favorite, and for what reasons? (What little I know, I've come to the conclusion that I would probably want a H&H, but seems to be that they aren't the best company as far as customer relations, say like Searcy...)

I know the sidelocks are more expensive to produce, and thus bring higher figures than the boxlocks, but other than the asthetics of the sideplates, is there any real advantage to going with a sidelock over a boxlock? (I tend to actually prefer a boxlocks looks, but when it comes to investing in a toy that I will undoubtedly only use to target shoot and gopher and rabbit hunt, would probably choose the sidelock, just due to the monetary value aspect for resale purposes.)

I know its a dreaded subject to bring up, especially on a hand built work of art, but have any of your rifles doubled, and if so, what was the cause, chambering, and how bad was the shoulder/collarbone injured?

The question I fear will cause the most debate/arguement and dread asking; What are your prefered chamberings, and why?

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Few ?s [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32705 - 06/06/05 07:46 PM


Welcome

big English makers - I prefer H&H guns - many reasons - looks, features, fit,
feel, balance, build quality (depending on year) etc etc. I like WR's, especially
the Droplocks but nothing compares to an H&H Sidelock. I like the Rigby
Sidelocks - that is Pre 1945 - not the rubbish they produce that pretends
to be a rue Rigby.

Re "have any of your rifles doubled, and if so, what was the cause,
chambering, and how bad was the shoulder/collarbone injured? "

Yes, the only time I decided to fire a new double BEFORE I gave it to the gunsmith
for a new gun's "once over clean, check etc, it doubled at the range.
Calibre 500/465.

I gave it to the gunsmith and let him know and he fixed it. I think it
was just a worn sear but it was fixed and that's why I get all 2nd hand guns
I purchase given then once over BEFORE I go out and use it.

What are your prefered chamberings, and why?
375 Flanged Magnum - great calibre, charisma, different and I own
a Rigby Sidelock in it !!!

500 Nitro - Because it has more killing / stpping power than a 465 / 470
and everyone has a 470 so I went with 500 Nitro's.

450/400 (Both types) - the most underestimated calibre of the whole range of British
double rifle calibres.

The above is just my HO.

500 Nitro

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iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32706 - 06/06/05 08:16 PM

Thank you for the welcome.

The doubling of 500/465 had to hurt! I am partial from my limited firing of the medium-big bores (Discounting .375 Belted... I shoot my Win 70 like most people shoot .22LR) to the .500 myself. The round has history and the stopping power of a frieght train on nitromethane.

My personal preference lies in the guns of 1900-1940 (as guns in a whole, from the N framed S&W's, to bolt actions, to what not). The doubles of the period have a stigma that a modern rifle just lacks. Their engraving (and as a rule I am not fond of embellishment at all) is beautiful and real.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32709 - 06/06/05 10:29 PM

So far my favorites have been a Rigby 1908 in 450 NE a Jefferies 1912 in 450/400 3 inch. They where real dreams. I'm not a fan of the H&H, just to dam snobby for my sensibilities.

As to engraving, I think that most game scene engraving is better today then it was pre war. I'm not sure about scroll. Fit and finish definatly where better pre WW I.

I still think a Searcy presidential grade is the best bang for the buck today. And as fine as any H&H ever made. (I can't wait for the response to that.) But I'm really pretty novice when it come to DR, so take my statements with a grain of salt.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: Rell]
      #32713 - 06/06/05 11:39 PM

Of the doubles I have personally held, and the pictures I've seen, Holland's offerings are generally back seat in asthetics. Of the fact that I will be be spending a serious amount of money for a double, I look at Holland & Holland in a different light. The same light I look at when I buy a coin. Is it a sound investment? My personal preference for asthetics flows very nicely with a double I've come across on the web many times in my search for envious eye candy.
Gorgeous (IMO) Double

Very little embleshment, gorgeous color case hardening, nice wood work, in the big traditional one. If my gun is to have engraving all over it, I will make sure its in scroll work. Scroll work like this is what I prefer:

Not a double, but a Hartmann and Weiss Mauser is still nice

(Edit) Make no mistake, either, I am not looking at a double as just an investment. I will most definately use it. I would also like it to retain/increase its value in the event that I have ever have children, so that they may end up with something unique, collectable, and personal. Not so far removed as the pair of Pre-64 Winchesters (.30-06 & .375 H&H Belted)that I posess, initially bought by my grandfather, and passed down.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

Edited by iwantadouble (06/06/05 11:53 PM)

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32716 - 07/06/05 01:09 AM

My favourite maker is Purdey with H & H second WR third. I am a fan of Brit Rifles, pre war. Some very nice Euro stuff also from that time period.

Brit rifles seem to have a panache that others lack. A friend calls it Soul.

Favourite caliber 500/465 for no particular reason. I also like the 400's and the 9.3x74R.

I've never had a rifle Double but I have seen two, a 475#2 Holland and a .577 2 3/4 750 gr Hollis. Both were shooter errors in allowing the finger to slip off the front trigger and hit the back.

I don't think it is legal to use Holland & Holland and Searcy in the same sentence. Like comparing a Mercedes to a KIA. The same price difference also.

If you want Art and Investment value get a Best Quality, Pre War Brit Rifle. If you want a tool that may or may not increase in value over the next few decades get new rifle in one of the myriad of low priced rifles available.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: mickey]
      #32718 - 07/06/05 02:18 AM

I wasn't meaning to compare Searcy to H&H in form of product. Searcy's seem to look like clubs to me. They just have the look of an unweildy gun. (I won't count the one I've actually held, because I can not see any makers product chambered in .700 NE being nimble or graceful.) I was comparing the customer support. H&H strikes me (and I may be entirely wrong in this regard, if at which is the case would be a great relief to me) as a company that would act like they are doing you a favor, and not the opposite. All that I seem to hear and read about Searcy is that they are nice people to deal with in ordering, building, and servicing the product.

At present to say I will buy new or used would be an act of folly with out the aid of a cyrstal ball that allows visions of future double gun prices and market trends. I know I will be spending in the neighborhood of probably $50,000. To say that by the time I have the funds saved up that the guns I like (Pre-War) are still at that level would be nothing more than guesswork at best. If they shoot though the roof in price and land into the quarter million dollar range, I may be forced to buy current production models offered now, or commission a new gun built.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32719 - 07/06/05 02:43 AM

In reply to:

If they shoot though the roof in price and land into the quarter million dollar range,



One can only hope.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32720 - 07/06/05 04:00 AM

iwantadouble

The doubling of 500/465 had to hurt!

No actually, it didn't. I don't bench rest doubles, particulalry the big ones.
I also seem to handle recoil well - it was more of a surprise that anything else.

The first shots are always taken standing unsupported, any others are always
taken from a Standing rest (forearm rested) as both of these are better for handling recoil.

IF you hold the gun correctly and it is not a lightweight gun, it shouldn't be a problem
until you get to the 500, 600 Nitro range, then I think it would get interesting !!!

rell - I'm sending over some mouth wash specifically designed to stop H&H and Searcy
being used together !!!!

500 Nitro

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32721 - 07/06/05 04:35 AM

As to favourite maker, that's a hard one. Too many good ones. The Jeffery stuff is very good, but is usually severely plain, too much so for my taste. Hollands are very nice, but since they haven't got it yet, I doubt they'll ever learn how to make an express sight. I'm a fan of the Westley droplock, but WR is almost as confused abouts sights as Holland is.

I'm not a sidelock guy - just never been able to warm up to 'em. Since most of the pre-war Brit boxlock double rifles weren't built by the makers that retailed them anyway, name doesn't mean a great deal to me. There are at least a couple dozen that are fine. I like Rigby, Evans, Gibbs, Boswell, Army & Navy, etc. I buy only British pre-war.

No other caliber has the magic of the .450/.400. After it my preferences would be .500/.450, 450 No. 2 and .476 WR in that order (I do like the mediums though). The .470 has no soul.

No, I've never had one double on me, but I've seen it done a number of times. It was always the shooter's fault. Shooters new to heavy doubles tend to strum the triggers like guitar strings and blame the rifle. If you don't learn how to keep your trigger finger mounted on the front trigger during the recoil impulse of the right barrel, you'll get double tapped.

I'm not convinced that sidelocks have the best investment growth potential. When I got started, conventional wisdom had it that sidelocks in .465 and .470 were the way to go. Since then, such rifles have not yet doubled in value, as nearly as I can tell. Nice boxlocks in some calibers have almost tripled.

Searcy doesn't make double rifles. They make railroad ties.
-----------------------------------------------------





--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #32722 - 07/06/05 05:12 AM


400NitroExpress

"Searcy doesn't make double rifles. They make railroad ties."


Are you trying to start World War III ?


500 Nitro

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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Few ?s [Re: iwantadouble]
      #32723 - 07/06/05 05:25 AM

Hey,

I own two double rifles in the “utility” grade: a Merkel 140 (375 H&H) and Chapuis Brouess (470NE) for the sole purpose of them being trouble free to own and shoot. I reload both of course, to “regulate” my loads. I practice a fare amount, so what I lack in point-ability with these guns I gain in familiarity. The Merkel is really starting to feel at home on my shoulder. I can hit 2-liter bottles at 50 yards shot after shot. The 470 is much heavier and kicks a lot more. I’m still shooting it at 25 yards for practice. I snap cap both about 100 of times a week. I know exactly how the trigger will feel when I shoot. I’ve never had a double because of this practicing.


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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clark7781
.375 member


Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 500Nitro]
      #32724 - 07/06/05 05:45 AM

In reply to:

"Searcy doesn't make double rifles. They make railroad ties."



Can you elaborate on this opinion more?

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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butchsearcy
.224 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 6
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: clark7781]
      #32727 - 07/06/05 09:56 AM

At this time I'd like to thank all my past customers, current customers, and future customers for there fondness for my custom built railroad ties.
400NitroExpress remark isn't even worthy of debate, just one man's opinion. I guess he won't be interested in railroad ties from me in the near future.

--------------------
B. Searcy & Co.
P.O. Box 584
Boron, CA 93516 USA
Phone (760) 762-6131
Fax (760) 762-0191
website: www.searcyent.com

See Butch's new membership alias Butch_Searcy This one has been closed.

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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: butchsearcy]
      #32728 - 07/06/05 12:32 PM

Poor misguided lovers of Brit DR's,

I'm with you Butch! We beat those limeys when it mattered and saved there buts in a couple of world wars and a few minor conflicts.

The USA may be realitivle new to the "Best" DR market, but if history has taught us anything it's that the good old USA will come out on top in this or any other market.

PS. You should all send your British doubles to an authorized firearms incinirator in protest. I just happen to have such an incinarator and will happily take those terible Britsh doubles of your hand, I would not even charge for my services. How patriotic of me.



--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: butchsearcy]
      #32733 - 07/06/05 02:42 PM

Butch:

My remark was made slightly tongue in cheek and was aimed, in jest, at a couple of vocal guys here that own Searcy rifles, not at you personally. Sorry that you took it that way.

I've had the occasion to handle a number of your double rifles over the years and, in comparison to the double rifles I'm used to, I felt that they handled poorly. I've said much the same thing here about the current examples from Merkel, Chapuis, and Krieghoff. That's my honest opinion, Butch. Sorry if it offends you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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iwantadouble
.300 member


Reged: 06/06/05
Posts: 104
Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: Rell]
      #32735 - 07/06/05 03:06 PM

Thank all of you for your opinions and input.

I did not intend to start a war over Searcys, though. (I do like Butch's sense of humor.)

It is nice to know that aside from the sears on .500Nitro's double, the rest is all of the horror stories are based in shooter form not function of the firearm. (If it doubled freestanding, I can see it not being a problem at all. Most of my shooting will probably be from the bench, so a condition might exist with drastically different results if I end up in the same scenario.) I think I personally possess enough finger/trigger control to prevent the strumming effect. The few times that I have shot doubles, nothing of that sort exhibited its ugly head.

I figured I would have been chastized for stating that I prefered boxlocks to sidelocks, but it was a welcomed piece of information to find that some of the boxlocks go higher on returns than the sidelocks.

As neat of cartridges as I find the .375 Flanged and the 9.3X74R, and as cute as I find the small bore and medium bore doubles, I dont have the kind of money to throw around hither may and do want the perverbial biggest bang for the buck. (At least not right now, and until the first one is accquired. After the first purchase, I'm sure I'll be saving for another followed by saving for yet another. It is a sick condition that exists in the gun closet, stained by the blood of desire for just one more.) I was surprised by the large dose of affection for the .400's.

You laughingly stated that you could only hope that they hit the $250,000 range, but I can see the handwriting on the wall, and its indicating that they are going to go up more and more. At least from my observations. Lost faith is gained daily in the stock market. More and more people are moving towards tangible investments instead of scribblings on pieces of paper. I've seen the numismatics world explode in prices lately. Not all that long ago (15 years or so) an XF grade 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter was going for about $5000. Good luck finding the same coin today for $15,000 with out a serious flaw in it. The last gun I bought was a lowly modern S&W 625 Mountain Gun, and shortly after buying it I could have turned around and made $250 off it. (I got it for a good price, but still, it wasn't THAT good.) I'm almost certain that the double rifle day will come when prices are beyond all but the extremely wealthy's grasp.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: butchsearcy]
      #32738 - 07/06/05 04:06 PM

Butch

I am sure you are a busy man but it is a shame that the only time you pop in is to answer a criticism. You know as well as anybody that gun owners and collectors are always an opinionated bunch.

I wish you would just pop in and share some of your knowledge with us. Tell us what you do and why you do it. How you can regulate a rifle to shoot various bullets at various velocities.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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wombat
.300 member


Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Australia
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #32746 - 07/06/05 09:57 PM

Dear 400nitroexpress,
I have just taken delivery of a new 500 Nitro double in the the basic PH grade from Butch.All done over the internet and relying only on goodwill on both sides for it to work out.Lots+++ of paperwork between Australia and the USA.It is a very well made ,well fitting,"railroad tie".I would describe the excellent wood and engraving on a base level rifle and suggest you check one out but it will be hard for you see much with your head stuck up your arse and blinded by the sun.

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new_guy
Sponsor


Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Texas
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: wombat]
      #32747 - 07/06/05 10:41 PM

Regardless of who won a free gun, or what local celebrities may be lurking in the weeds, 400 NE is entitled to his opinion and those that disagree should be challenged to make their counter points known.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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jjs
.224 member


Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 18
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: new_guy]
      #32748 - 08/06/05 12:00 AM

Please forgive my inexperience but one point I took to heart about Double Rifles is that they should point and fit the shooter well to be effective tools. I really have enjoyed learning about DR and they are more interesting than any other firearm I have picked up! However, to state in that a particular DR is comparable to a Railroad tie seems very snobbish to me. Hell I picked up some English guns (by makers noted in this thread) that felt like railroad ties to me! but I am sure they must fit the user as that would not have made that purchase.

Not having the experience of many of you guys here....not trusting my judgement regarding vintage guns I went ahead and purchased a new DR and I am happy with it. The gun fits me and shoots very well. Possibly one day I may purchase a vintage DR...but I would have to learn much more about them to do it...50 to 100 year old guns and steel used to make them does concern me...I purchase guns to hunt with and I would always be concerned about taking an expensive Vintage DR overseas or getting it beat up...insurance may cover the cost but not replace the "one of a kind" aspect of a Vintage DR...that would be a pisser!

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butchsearcy
.224 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 6
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: jjs]
      #32750 - 08/06/05 12:37 AM

400NITROEXPRESS, I didn't take offence, I took it as humor also. And to all others 400NitroExpress is strictly a collector of old English Classic's and I've known this for yrs. Laugh and enjoy. Ofcourse at my age I'm learning to laugh and enjoy allot more.

--------------------
B. Searcy & Co.
P.O. Box 584
Boron, CA 93516 USA
Phone (760) 762-6131
Fax (760) 762-0191
website: www.searcyent.com

See Butch's new membership alias Butch_Searcy This one has been closed.

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Metswedi
.300 member


Reged: 20/01/05
Posts: 156
Loc: Yorks. England
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: Rell]
      #32753 - 08/06/05 01:31 AM

Keep crowing rell and we'll sail up the Potomac and set fire to the White House again! ( naturally you'll need to loan us a ship )!!!!




--------------------
Perfer et obdura!

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: butchsearcy]
      #32754 - 08/06/05 01:32 AM

.....As for me, I`d rather have any rifle than the "right" opinion about èm!

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Rell
.375 member


Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 642
Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: New to forum and relatively new to doubles- Fe [Re: rigbymauser]
      #32756 - 08/06/05 03:45 AM

First off it was a 90% Canadian militia that undertook that little piece of history, also led by a Canadian ex governer of Canada. The few red coats that where there kept getting lost in the woods when they went of to relieve themselves.

The Brits took the credit for that one to.



--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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