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Is that a Woodleigh 'capped' hydro in that cartridge?
Amazing work on that rifle - but I'd be too scared to take it out in the rough stuff!

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Went to their website.. prices start at...

Starting from
£118,200

If you can afford that, a scratch or two would not be that big of a deal..

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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How different is it from the 500/416?

What head size is it based on? 500?

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Non high gloss polish finish is the way to go.

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another new cartridge that ends as a number in cartridge collector boxes

please not!

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I don't think this one will end up as just a case for collections.

It will become the most effective ".400" range break open rifle cartridge. And as a rimmed example very suitable. The most powerful ".400" joining the .450/400's, and the .500/416.

I think in a Rigby double a much to be desired chambering.

And also in future single shot rifles.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Performance is certainly worth looking at. Impressive ballistics. If Hornady or another major ammo mfg loads it I wouldn't hesitate to chamber rifles for it.

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Hopefully we will see it spread. And it will only be a general commercial success if mainstream US ammo makers cater for it, or at the usual ammo makers for unusual big bores such as Norma, Hornady etc.

And if some gunmakers also cater for it. Bringing the cartridge into the affordability of common gunowners. Maybe a Ruger no.1 could be chambered for it?

Being a rimmed cartridge, makes it less likely in cheaper firearms, as it is usually only the break open and similar actions which use the rimmed cartridges. Single shots and doubles.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Performance is certainly worth looking at. Impressive ballistics. If Hornady or another major ammo mfg loads it I wouldn't hesitate to chamber rifles for it.

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Hopefully we will see it spread. And it will only be a general commercial success if mainstream US ammo makers cater for it, or at the usual ammo makers for unusual big bores such as Norma, Hornady etc.

And if some gunmakers also cater for it. Bringing the cartridge into the affordability of common gunowners. Maybe a Ruger no.1 could be chambered for it?

Being a rimmed cartridge, makes it less likely in cheaper firearms, as it is usually only the break open and similar actions which use the rimmed cartridges. Single shots and doubles.

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This would be an awesome cartridge to use around Africa.. IMHO.. very good ballistics and as much knockdown energy you should ever need.. 400 gr bullet at 2350-2400FPS.. that equates to over 5000ft.lbs of energy at the muzzle..

As you state, if other larger ammo manufacturers were to pick it up that would certainly insure its future success...

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (28/05/19 12:34 AM)

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A.450 Nitro would do just fine.

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While perusing the interwebs, I came across a Ruger No.1 chambered in the 416/470 cartridge. That is, a 470NE necked down to 416.
Thinking this must be a fairly recent development, I looked into it further and came up with this:

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/416-470-sxs-double-rifle-john-rigby-co.2743/

So, I guess Rigby had done this well before the 500/416 which is similar but 1/4" shorter and of course the new 416 No.2 which, in length, is somewhere in between and dimensionally the same as the rimless 416 Rigby.

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Which brings us to this:
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/416-flanged-magnum



And this:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/807208602



So, maybe 'ol Butch Searcy beat Rigby and Dr. Stief to the 416 No.2 quite a few years ago!

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Again the link says the "Searcy" rifle was for a Ruger no.1 chambering.

Secondly was this flanged cartridge a .416 Rigby flanged? Or just another flanged NE cartridge necked down to .416? What is the parent case and ballistics? I will ask Bruce Bertram.

Lastly, a "rimmed .416" is of course not new. The .500/416 is a commercially available rimmed .416 and still chambered.

As of "ol'Searcy" its pretty good his "ol" rifles don't have to be sent out of the USA for repairs ... from reports, two to three times or more for some rifles, before being sold on ...

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The joke is on me!

I just went to the Rigby website to wishfully configure a Rising Bite double rifle. IT'S NOT OFFERED IN .450NE!

I bet they would build one if asked, though. At a base price of GBP 118,000 they won't have to be worrying about my preferences. But I do wish!!!

Curl

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Someone mentioned a starting price of approx GBP120,000 ? I am sure they could chamber it.

I'm going to start a new thread. On which cartridge was associated with which brand of gunmaker.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The original Maharajah who owned it as the first .416 Rigby shot over 1600 tigers, plus a great many other game. Also three African safaris.

PLEASE:
Did you habe more Infos about that great hunter?
Thank you.
J.

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Hi Jaguarhunter,

My comments came from the links.

I will re-record here. Otherwise information on that Maharajah may exist somewhere on the net or with a member.

BTW ending you a PM.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Some asked whether this is a Woodleigh Hydro capped projectile loaded in the Rigby factory ammo?

Per Marc Newton, the answer is YES.

Which must be a 400 gr Hydro, with the plastic cap.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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The joke is on me!

I just went to the Rigby website to wishfully configure a Rising Bite double rifle. IT'S NOT OFFERED IN .450NE!

I bet they would build one if asked, though. At a base price of GBP 118,000 they won't have to be worrying about my preferences. But I do wish!!!

Curl

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I wonder if there is any listed in all those "Rigby" sets of photos I have posted, or have yet to post?

But something different if you wait.

After the .416 Rigby No. 2 Rimmed has had a run, there may well be a new Rigby cartridge. A .450 Rigby, with an added flange or rim. A .450 Rigby No 2.

If ever created, will be a hot loading for a double rifle. Marc says he thinks the DR is strong enough to take it.

We will have to wait and see if the Rigby company ever decides to give it a try, and a .450 Rigby No.2 Flanged is created.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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I think 'they' are still (not sure) restricted to non -government calibres in India, which means no .450's allowed.
Thus a .416 and .470 are both allowed, as are .500's, etc.

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Daryl, I doubt any gun or ammo makers factor in India seriously into what they make nowadays.

Hunting there happens, mostly under the table, and is mostly banned. Every animal is sacred or holy according to someone somewhere. And hunting is viewed as elitist, by the socialists and part if the Rajah and Colonial era. Even Bollywood stars have been gaoled for shooting a relatively common animal.

It does happen. I was invited by two different people to hunt there. Never did. Didn't see the attraction of a damp shit smeared cell for five years before a trial, for the game being considered.

Target shooting of course is conducted.

other than that it is sad, but mostly part of nostalgia.

Rigby is a UK company, and guns depending on model, or components are either made in the UK or Germany. Mauser are of course shareholders and also suppliers of some components. Finished off or made from scratch by Rigby depending on model and price.

The Rising Bite double rifles are reported as 100% UK Rigby made.

Barrels, who knows. I have seen barrels for all sorts of brand makers in two gun makers workshops.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (09/07/19 01:18 AM)

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Some asked whether this is a Woodleigh Hydro capped projectile loaded in the Rigby factory ammo?

Per Marc Newton, the answer is YES.

Which must be a 400 gr Hydro, with the plastic cap.

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I have no experience whatsoever with the Woodleigh Hydro bullets, but wouldn't the plastic cap potentially interfere with the hydro action produced by the shape of the front of the bullet?

I've never shot one and have no experience. Just asking, not being critical.

As I said before, if I had the $$$ to order up a new rising bite, I would not choose this caliber. I don't, so it's moot. Wish I could.

Maybe they could send me one for trials on Shit Ridge and a big write-up on NE.com! And to keep for my very own!

Curl

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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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And is the 416 No 2 just the 416 rigby with a rim added?

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Basically yes.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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I have no experience whatsoever with the Woodleigh Hydro bullets, but wouldn't the plastic cap potentially interfere with the hydro action produced by the shape of the front of the bullet?

I've never shot one and have no experience. Just asking, not being critical.

As I said before, if I had the $$$ to order up a new rising bite, I would not choose this caliber. I don't, so it's moot. Wish I could.

Maybe they could send me one for trials on Shit Ridge and a big write-up on NE.com! And to keep for my very own!

Curl

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Woodleigh introduced the cap for better aerodynamic flight I believe. i believe it is designed to blow away easily on impact. Whether it interferes with the "hydro" or "deadly" "bubble" I have no idea. I question the "bubbles" existence in the first place, in the absence of any real scientific study and evidence. People do like them, and think they work well. Maybe some of them can comment on your question.

I think the main advantage for the expensive Hydro bullet, ie as a reloading component, or in factory ammo, is it is monometal, and so can be used in ridiculous legal jurisdictions which completely ban any lead or lead core bullets. Such as California and some German states.

The Hydro also has raised driving bands allowing the monometal bullet to be raised relatively safely in rifles such as double rifles, which might otherwise have some issues with pressure, or barrel expansion (OSR) in the absence of driving bands.

Back to the .416 Rigby No. 2 Flanged. People have expressed a preference for the vintage .450 Nitro Express as a chambering. And why not? It is still one of the best choices, more than a hundred years later. But if a .416 Rimmed Rigby rifle was regulated for say a 450 gr Woodleigh RNSP and FMJs in .416 calibre, how effective would such a bullet be against a traditional 480 gr .458 projectile in a .450 NE at about 2100 fps. Better sectional density, and probably increased penetrative ability. How fast could a 450 gr projectile be driven by a .416 No. 2? If a 400 gr is about 2400 fps, my guess is around 2100 to 2200 fps.

A negative might be somewhat increased pressure, and a somewhat decreased frontal calibre area, .416 compared to .458. Frontal area is a factor in killing and knockdown power, as well as sectional density/penetration, weight, and velocity.

Curl, as you know, the .450 NE is a favourite of mine as well, in the .450 No.2 NE cartridge. I think a .416 Rigby No.2 chambered rifle, would largely do a similar job with a 450 gr bullet, but lesser job with a 400 gr bullet. Why not one of each? You will have to wait for the one they can send me, before you get your testing example. I think we will both be waiting a long time mate.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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. . . You will have to wait for the one they can send me, before you get your testing example. I think we will both be waiting a long time mate.

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John, you get the .416 No. 2, and I'll get a .450 3-1/4" NE.

Curl

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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Woodleigh added the cap for better feeding in bolt action rifles. Being a solid, aerodynamics doesn't matter. As for performance, the cap doesn't do any harm (it's quickly demolished upon entry).

Regarding Rigby's rimmed .416, it is a brilliant move!

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Woodleigh added the cap for better feeding in bolt action rifles. Being a solid, aerodynamics doesn't matter. As for performance, the cap doesn't do any harm (it's quickly demolished upon entry).

Regarding Rigby's rimmed .416, it is a brilliant move!

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Correct. The bubble apparently does exist. The bloke that designed them is an metal engineer or similar and I think wind tunnel tested or by some other method established that happens. Like a flat nose solid will have a vacuum in from of it and this acts much the same. Cap didn't do any harm to the 416 400grn Hydro I dropped my Elephant with.

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The alleged "bubble" has zero to do with flight and "wind tunnels". A wind tunnel will allow assessing of the ballistics and flight. A cup point or flat point, will NOT fly efficiently, a round nose with the "cap" will fly marginally better. No one even claims a "bubble" will form for the bullet in flight. Why don't we see all these supersonic cup pointed aircraft otherwise. The unscientifically supported "bubble" is what is claimed happens in the flesh of an animal. To claim to explain why the claimed wider wound canal or channel is wider than the calibre size. A magical "bubble" of air forms in front of the projectile, wider than the calibre size and creates the damaged.

I believe some have tried ballistic gel type test material to shoot the hydros into and show the wider "wound channel". This is probably the right approach.

By scientifically proven, I mean an independent testing of a suitable sample size, the hydro with the same velocity or at least powder charge, against the same weight FMJ's and SPs of varying designs. Same velocity, same bullet weight, same calibre. But independent. And not people sent free bullets by the maker. For stories in magazines and the internet.

I would also like to see a physicist with a theoretical knowledge of ballistics and aerodynamics, explain how a "bubble" forms and works.

Sorry it sounds like a lot of hokum to me scientficially. The reason i have said I would like to see it proven.

As for the people that say it works, Good-O. Pay for them and use them. Most intelligent commenters I have seen say it is better penetrating than a expanding SP, but a lesser wound channel, and possibly penetrates less than a dedicated FMJ. Or maybe penetrates similar to a FMJ. Claiming it is better than a SP AND a FMJ again, wishful thinking IMO. It is an expensive compromise bullet.

One advantage is the driving bands, and less frictional wear and tear on barrels and rifling, pressure etc. Possibly a big advantage in think walled barrels and older vintage rifles.

If hunting elephant, I would use a dedicated FMJ every time before a hydro. If hunting buffalo, maybe I would try it, if I was confident it would cause a greater than FMJ wound channel. Not hard to use complementary SPs and FMJs though. And have the best of both types of bullet.

In some markets and jurisdictions, one has to use a monometal projectile and pay for the nose for them.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Woodleigh added the cap for better feeding in bolt action rifles. Being a solid, aerodynamics doesn't matter. As for performance, the cap doesn't do any harm (it's quickly demolished upon entry).

Regarding Rigby's rimmed .416, it is a brilliant move!

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Probably a very good point, the cup/flat point needed a cap for feeding from a magazine.

Aerodynamics always matter. But of course are not very important at close range.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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... commenters I have seen say it is better penetrating than a expanding SP, but a lesser wound channel, and possibly penetrates less than a dedicated FMJ. Or maybe penetrates similar to a FMJ. Claiming it is better than a SP AND a FMJ again, wishful thinking IMO. It is an expensive compromise bullet.

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BTW this comment also relied on personal conversations, where some knowledgeable persons have made comments in talks, ie a Woodleigh weld core or FMJ, are still better. One person said they would not say it publicly though to not upset ...

A hydro s a good compromise between the two though. And one only has to chamber one form of projectile.

As said by one member, they used it on elephant. So if it works it works.

I used a FMJ and it worked well too. Even exited a COW elephant skull. I wonder on a bull?

Back to the .416 Rigby No. 2. I also wonder if the rifle needs to be regulated for a hydro vs say normal weld core/fmj projectiles? They must have somewhat different reactions while travelling in the barrel. Enough to matter or not?

If regulation IS different, one would want one's rifle regulated for the chosen ammo. I am guessing from images, the Rigby ammo caters for the hydro. Makes some sense as that ammo can be used where lead is banned. The added price of a hydro bullet won't matter to a 120,000 pound rifle buyer either.

Lesser barrel wear due to the driving bands as well. The rifle will last "forever"!

Have I said, I want one! A dozen times? Forget to enter lotto on the weekend.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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