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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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CMWill
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Reged: 16/05/05
Posts: 20
homemade doubles
      #32542 - 01/06/05 12:59 PM

I am sure this board has seen its hare of crazy questions, but I just cant help but add on to that list. In the past Ive noticed people converting cheap SxS shotguns into small caliber double rifles. Usually .410 boxlocks into 22 hornets or other small calibers, etc. I know this is done by inserting tubes in the existing shotgun bbls, which have chambers fit to the desired cartridge and are usually rifled(correct?). It just so happens, I know a few machinists, and was curious how hard this really is. Im sure regulating a 22 hornet isnt too bad, but I dont even know how to go about starting a project like this. Do you buy the barrel inserts from somewhere(I am not able to rifle a barrel, but I could turn one out on a lathe and chamber it), do you take the existing bbls apart and then heat them to expand the bbl and then insert the new tubes with a binding compound?, is there a book on this process? Has anyone here done this? Realistically, can me and a few machinists(mostly machinists) do this? I realize having a gunsmith do this would be a little easier, but my gunsmith no longer has time to works on guns and I would rather do it myself for the fun of it. If anything were to go wrong, at least Im not destroying a $20,000 Purdey right? But I sure would love to have a little petite double rifle in something like .303 british or .22 hornet. Any information is greatly appreciated. Even if you all convince me Id be in way over my head Id still be happy knowing how its done.

Thanks again,

CMW

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32567 - 02/06/05 10:50 AM

I'd suggest that you buy a copy of "Building Double Rifles On Shotgun Actions", by W. Ellis Brown. It won't answer all of your questions but it will point you in the right direction. IMHO sleeving the rifle barrels inside of the existing shotgun barrels is "Mickey Mouse". The better way is to cut off the shotgun barrels at about 3 inches and then either solder or screw the rifle barrels into the monobloc thereby created.

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CMWill
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Reged: 16/05/05
Posts: 20
Re: homemade doubles [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #32568 - 02/06/05 11:51 AM

I also thought about this, but I would still end up making a chamber on the lathe and "sleeving" it into the existing chamber correct? Then I would connect the two new barrels and relay the rib. Anyone know somebody that has tried or completed a project like this?

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Ron_Vella
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32581 - 02/06/05 08:28 PM

I have built 3, a 12 gauge rifle, a .22 Hornet, and a .54 x 10 gauge Cape gun. I am currently working on a .450 #2 NE. A .303 is in the future, all being well.

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doublegunfan
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32589 - 03/06/05 01:01 AM

I friend had a single barrel insert on a double shotgun many years ago. I think that he did exactely what you are describing, machining the outside of a rifled barrel to match the internal side of the shotgun barrel. There was a nut on the muzzle to lock the insert in place. Two problems with this approach: first, you get a very barrel-heavy gun. Second, on a double, you have very limited regulation, even if you use excentric bushing on the muzzle to try some regulation.
I am working right now on a conversion project, using a shotgun action as a basis, inserting new barrels and using the original ones as monoblock only.
Have you any idea of what action are you going to use for your project?

Fred

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: doublegunfan]
      #32590 - 03/06/05 01:17 AM

Do a search on the double rifles forum. Marrakai has a double, a .577 2 3/4" NE built on a shotgun action. He didn't build it however but purchased it as is. It has been discussed several times. On his website listed on his profile is a story about it. I had a couple shots through it a couple years ago and it is a nice little rifle.

Found the story for you : Story





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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unspellable
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Reged: 06/03/04
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Loc: Iowa
Re: homemade doubles [Re: NitroX]
      #32596 - 03/06/05 03:43 AM

As a more conservative approach, how about taking a 12 gauge and re-regulating it for a double barreled slug gun?

Bernardelli made or makes a double slug gun, but I've never been able to find out anything about it. Anybody here know anything about it?

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CMWill
.224 member


Reged: 16/05/05
Posts: 20
Re: homemade doubles [Re: doublegunfan]
      #32601 - 03/06/05 12:10 PM

I think that if I was to insert full length tubes instead of cutting the barrels 1.5" from the end of the forcing cones, I would flute the barrels to reduce some weight. But, I do like the idea of cutting them about 1.5" from the forcing cones and putting new tubes on. The regulation does seem hard, and being a .22 hornet, its not the most accurate in the first place. Any suggestions on books about regulating doubles? I am thinking of my .410 ga BLNE Zabala Hermanos or one of those EAA 410 boxlocks. Id really like to find an old hammergun, but Ill only try that if this project works. Id also like to convert a .410 to 303 british, but starting small might be best So far no gunshop I know of has been able to get the "Spartan Gunworks" doubles. Id love to get the 45-70 and restock it, scallop the action, get the blue off it and caseharden it, and then have it engraved a little more. Thanks again for all of the info, CMW

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32609 - 03/06/05 07:56 PM

CMW
Welcome to the forum.

In reply to:

I would flute the barrels to reduce some weight



Now there is a frightening thought, a double rifle with fluted barrels.
Might make the rib laying interesting.
In reply to:

Id also like to convert a .410 to 303 british


I think you would be very lucky to find a double 410 which could be built into a 303.
The chamber walls would end up dangerously thin IMO due to the majority of 410 doubles having tiny frame dimensions.
In reply to:

The regulation does seem hard


Believe me when I say that regulation is usually NOWHERE near as difficult as (correctly) building the barrels and modifying the action.

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CMWill
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Reged: 16/05/05
Posts: 20
Re: homemade doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #32631 - 04/06/05 09:37 AM

I would never have fluted bbls on a double, I meant I would flute the .22 tubes to reduce weight, then line them in the old shotgun barrels. You wouldnt see the fluted bbl inserts because they are covered by the original shotgun tubes I am not that sick! Thats another thing, Im not sure what the pressure of 303 british is compared to 410 and it being danergous. Anyways, thanks again, CMW

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4seventy
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32645 - 04/06/05 05:19 PM

Ok,
I'm with you now.
I should have read your post more carefully.
In the case of rifle barrels sleeved full length into shottie tubes, yes, the regulation will be more difficult.
I fail to see much benefit in building barrels this way for a double rifle.
IMO it is as much, or more work, than doing a monoblok setup.
The full length sleeving idea can look clubby, lack feel and balance, and regulating can turn into a nightmare.

Regarding the difference between .410 shotgun cartridge pressure and 303 rifle cartridge pressure, there is a BIG difference.

You need to ensure that the thickness of steel surrounding the cartridge chamber is more than enough before even thinking about any shotgun to rifle conversion.
IMO most 410 double barrel shotguns will be too small for safe conversion to 303 double rifle.

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CMWill
.224 member


Reged: 16/05/05
Posts: 20
Re: homemade doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #32657 - 05/06/05 07:25 AM

The pressure on most any rifle cartridge bigger then a 22 is greater then that of a 410 ga Id assume, but I wasnt sure what the chambers of a modern 410 could handle safely. So my 303 thought is out of the question obviously. I do want to start small(22 hornet) and go with the monobloc. I still am not sure on how to regulate the rifle, maybe lazer lights down the bbls and see where they are on the target @ 75 yrd and 50 yrd? I will need to read up on that before anything. I have a lot of old barrels from the familys shop back home I can test it on luckly! Thanks, CMW

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32658 - 05/06/05 08:18 AM

CWMill,
On 16/05/05, under the heading of Information Help, you posted photos of a best quality, German SxS rifle, by JJ Reeb, of Bonn, which you say you own. This rifle is chambered for the 8mm/.30-40 Krag which, for all intents and puposes is, ballistically, the twin of the .303 British. I'm puzzled as to why you would need to BUILD a .303.

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CMWill
.224 member


Reged: 16/05/05
Posts: 20
Re: homemade doubles [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #32666 - 05/06/05 01:08 PM

Just because I do not reload. I belive the only shells I own are the shells in the cartridge trap sadly. I need to buy dies and such from rcbs. 303 is so much easier to buy, as it still exists to this day, and I was reading somewhere that its not too bad of a cartridge to hunt with. I wish the double was a regular 30-40 krag, but the cases are necked down a bit and if I reloaded I would end up resizing the cases and it also uses the older 8mm bullets, which im not sure where to buy? The reeb is not for use, its for looking it right now As I have been saying before, I want a 22 hornet I am just obsessed with doubles, is that such a crime? CMW

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32691 - 06/06/05 11:42 AM

CMWill:
Your enthusiasm is certainly refreshing, but don't discount other posters as 'knockers': they are simply speaking from experience which you are only beginning to accumulate. However, you have come to the right place!

I could be a bit of a 'knocker' myself, particularly regarding your proposed cosmetic work on the Spartan (you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!), but I think you simply need to read a lot more round the topic, and keep asking questions here. You could profitably spend a lazy Sunday afternoon going back a year or so in this very forum, reading all posts relating to shooting or loading for double rifles.

Regarding books, follow Ron Vella's recommendation for info on rifle-building. The best book on reloading for doubles is Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle", which will set you straight on a lot of issues, including why you can't laser-sight the barrels to regulate a double! Buy a copy!

Hope this helps.



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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CMWill
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Reged: 16/05/05
Posts: 20
Re: homemade doubles [Re: Marrakai]
      #32693 - 06/06/05 12:37 PM

I can assure you I am taking every post in and soaking up information with much appreciation. The reeb rifle has pretty much addicted me to double rifles, and I am very new to the topic. I have reloaded shotgun shells, but never rifle cartridges, so I am very novice on many subjects. thank god for this board! The way I fugure it, is that humans are on earth to teach others and learn, & it just so happens I chose to learn about double rifles Maybe one day Ill be an old timer teaching some new double lovers. Anyways, thanks everyone for the help and info, its more appreciated then you know. CMW

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balltip
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Reged: 05/06/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Just north of Gothenburg, Swed...
Re: homemade doubles [Re: CMWill]
      #32940 - 12/06/05 04:07 AM

Hello there!
Seems you and I have the same thoughts - building a double rifle.
It can be done, however I would not recommend you doing it unless you got someone close by thta can help you out. Now, don't think I am bashing your idea, nor telling you that you can't do it - it's just that what you need to get it done will probably run you as much as buying a good quality used one (as long as you steer clear of Purdeys which tend to be a bit more costly...) Because you need a lathe, mill, good workingplace, a truck load of good quality files and a LOT of time!

I never built one myself as of yet, but have seen several being built on Merkel model 8's, 20 and 16ga, converting them to 8x57JRS. Process is quite forward:
1) Chop off the barrels at the front end of the chamber.
2) Ream the old chambers mirror smooth.
3) Turn down 2 barrels (better get barrels ment for double rifles from the beginning or yoy will end up with a very front heavy gun) so that their aft ends fits Exactly inside the reamed out chambers and protrude about 1/16" to the rear.
4) Soft solder the barrels in place (Yes, soft solder will do just fine - Do Not Weld Barrels!)
5) Solder the newly made ribs in place, including front sight, fore end lock notch and anything else you migt wanna have, like the front wedge and a quarter rib and so on. Ooops, forgot to tell that all soldering done must be nothing short of Perfect.
6) File the aft en absolutely square to the action
7) Make new extractor cos the old one won't work
8) Fit new extractor
9) AFTER fitting new extractor - cut chambers with extractor in place (it's hard to ream them chambers b4 you solder the barrels in place. So to do this you need a good quality drill press and the knowledge on "how to")
10) Test fire (if you dare)
11) Regulate rifle cos it surely won't shoot to the same POI as it is your first gun.

There are a few more minor details to take into account, like that you can't ream the old chambers parallel but they must actually be reamed at an angle so that the axis of them 2 bores wil meet at some distance. You also will want to file the outside contour of the new barrels and a few more things. Oh, almost forgot to say that you need to get new firing pins in place (smaller diameter) than the old ones cos of the increased pressure. It does take some time and some skill not to FUBAR.

There is another timeconsuming way to go too: Make a completely new set of rifled barrels for your shotgun-of-choice. Then you just pick the right set of barrels regarding what you want to hunt. For pigeons go with them shotgun barrels, for large game you just place your double rifle barrels in place. Nice!

(Heck, the more I think about it the more I realize that I should not spend time in my shop building my own double rifle but put in extra hours at work instead so that I can just buy myself one! Nah... I kinda look forward to it!
Friends that has done all this spent bout 5 months - 8 hours a day 5 days a week b4 they were finished. Then it was first time projects. On the other hand they got themselves some nice double rifles!)

So there you go; A short guide on how to build a double.

Be safe

Per

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Bloodnativ
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Reged: 14/11/04
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: balltip]
      #32981 - 13/06/05 10:00 AM

I'm planning to do this very project as soon as I finish my degree next year. I've already been researching this project for almost a year now and I've learned a lot. This is probably the only way I'll ever be able to afford a double rifle. I may catch a lot of flak for this but I plan on using a Stoeger 12 ga. action (unless I find some reason to change my mind). Many of the others that people recommend as being suitable are way out of my budget. I can afford $1000.00+ for an action about like I can afford a new double. They might as well be a new DR. I'll build a clamping fixture to test fire it in when I get to that point. If it blows up then it blows up. Afterall, it's as much about the journey as it is the destination. I plan on chambering either 450/400, 500/416, 450 3-1/4", or 450 No.2. A lot of it will depend on which ones I can find reamers for. If you decide to start yours keep us posted along the way.

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mickey
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: Bloodnativ]
      #32986 - 13/06/05 12:21 PM

How many of you guys building these plan to try proof loads first?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Bloodnativ
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: mickey]
      #32987 - 13/06/05 01:28 PM

Of course I'm gonna try proof loads. That's the proper way to do it right? I want to know that it will handle standard loads without problem. I'm not just going to slap one together and go hunting. I'm not gonna do it at my local range either. If you're not gonna do something right then what's the point of doing it? I know I'll never be able to build a "Best" quality gun but I want the best quality gun I can possibly build.

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4seventy
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: balltip]
      #33002 - 13/06/05 05:19 PM

In reply to:

4) Soft solder the barrels in place (Yes, soft solder will do just fine



Hmmmm.
"Soft" solder may vary in strength anywhere from 4000 psi to 40,000 psi or thereabouts depending on what type it is.

I don't think I want to have barrels soft soldered into the "monobloc" in any double I'd be shooting.

I'd demand true silver solder for that job.


Edited by 4seventy (13/06/05 05:23 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #33011 - 13/06/05 10:26 PM

IMHO there is no earthly reason to use lead/tin solder on any double, even for laying the ribs. the new solders containing 95% tin + 5% silver appear to be far superior, much stronger, melt about the same (a little hotter, but not much), and I'm led to believe the barrel-group can be caustic blued if the need ever arises. I think Brownells market this stuff as 'Force 44' in the US. Any resident gunsmiths have an opinion on this?

I agree with 4seventy on the monobloc, though 5%silver/95%tin would probably be fine for fixing threaded barrels in place.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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new_guy
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: Bloodnativ]
      #33014 - 13/06/05 11:03 PM

In reply to:

I can afford $1000.00+ for an action about like I can afford a new double. They might as well be a new DR. I'll build a clamping fixture to test fire it in when I get to that point. If it blows up then it blows up.



I'd think the 45-70 spartan would be much more cost effective than building a home-made double (safer too).

Two barrel blanks on your project gun will cost you almost as much as the spartan, and you know the spartan is safe to shoot.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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balltip
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Re: homemade doubles [Re: 4seventy]
      #33016 - 14/06/05 12:00 AM

Yes! You are absolutely right regarding that there are a whole load of different soft solders on the market.
Just to clarify my point I refer to good quality soft solders like the one mentioned by Marraki - not the stuff you might use for electronics. (In my world "soft solder" is good quality stuff that still don't need the metal to be heated to temperatures as high as needed for ordinary stiff stick silver/cadmium solders. Sorry, should have been clearer on that!)
I am also very sure about good quality soft solders and their ability to fix barrels to a mono block without the use of threads. This not from own experience but from what friends has done.
Now you guys might wonder "what kind of friends does this silly bugger keep?"
Well, one of them has built a few doubles, others just one. Place I met them all was at the Swedish school of gunsmithing, and one of the friends I keep from back then is the former head master, his name is Stanley Stoltz. He also happens to be one of the better engravers around, so I will try to paste a few pictures with this post. (After trying to do just that I realized I need to link to a separate web page with pics, right? Gosh, I don't have a home page so posting pics will be difficult for me. Is there any way to post pictures on here without having to link to another page? Help needed from you guys!)
Anyway, he and the other teacher taught us the "ream out and solder" method when it comes to fixing barrels to a mono block.
But then again I was a bit unclear about explaining this (I didn't even mention it!) so I will correct this by saying that this method does only apply to lower pressure cardridges - as the mentioned 8x57JRS for example. I am not familiar with the actual shear force a good soft solder withstands, but the actual surface holding a barrel in place would be something like this (just an example).
Imagine we are using a 12 bore for building a double (there are a few important drawbacks about using a 12 bore for building a double but I won't list them all here except for saying it has, amongst other things also to do with leverage).
Once the chambers has been cleared for soldering (reamed out, barrels shortened to... let's say 75mm, and yes I will stick to metrics here cos I am no good at maths using inches) they will be roughly 20mm in diameter. That gives a total inner surface of (20 x pi (3,14) x 75) = 4710 square millimetres, or 47,1 square cm's
Now a good solder will hold a lot covering that much surface. Just HOW much I don't know...!
But as I said b4, none of them doubles made has turned to scrap - nor their owners.

And here is an open invitation to anybody who knows anything about how to calculate this stuff when it comes to shearing forces neccesary to pull the barrel out of place! If anybody knows how to calculate this then please show me how to, please! I am very sincere on this!

Regarding my own project I am turning towards the 45-110 ,the 45-120 or something similar. As the action I am going to build my gun on is old (90+ years) I will use nitro-for-black loads only. I happen to own a 12ga gun (see my presentation under "general" on this board) equipped with an extra set of .450 bpe barrels from the manufacturer (Husqvarna) so the action itself does allow for BP pressures. That 12ga will be for sale shortly, but that is another story...
(Edited: Forgot to mention here that I will be using a 16ga action for my own project, and that YES - I am in such a lucky position that I do have good friends at hand that knows the process on "how to" and "what not to" do. If you reading this don't - then by all means DON'T DO IT!)

The problem about having the gun proofed will be dealt by having it sent to Norma cartridge company. I still expect it to return in one piece, but I want somebody knowledgeable about proof loads doing the actual testing - I am not going to fill a case at random using bullseye and "see what happens"!

Any thoughts on this much welcome!

Per




Edited by balltip (14/06/05 12:06 AM)

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Bloodnativ
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Reged: 14/11/04
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Loc: South Carolina, USA
Re: homemade doubles [Re: new_guy]
      #33021 - 14/06/05 02:53 AM

In reply to:

I'd think the 45-70 spartan would be much more cost effective than building a home-made double (safer too).

Two barrel blanks on your project gun will cost you almost as much as the spartan, and you know the spartan is safe to shoot.



I would love to try one of the Spartans (though after rechambering to something other than 45/70) but it seems that Remington can't deliver what they promise. I have yet to see one at any dealer and have yet to find any dealer who knows when they will be here. Remington also says that the Spartans shouldn't be used with ammo exceeding 28,000 psi. WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT! That's the loads for the old Trapdoor Springfields. That's about as useful as a hemorhoid.

Furthermore I can buy the barrel blanks individually (and any other parts or outside labor that may be needed) as my budget allows. I don't have to come out of pocket with the whole roll at once. I plan on starting a "Double Rifle Savings Plan" after I finish my degree but with a family with 3 kids (ranging in age from newborn-11 years) I don't see it happening. Besides building one will be quite therapeutic.

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