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tact1
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Questions about Model 1900 M-S
      #325311 - 02/03/19 02:22 AM

I have a Model 1900 which is typical of all the M-S Steyr of that era, double-set triggers, claw scope mounts, butter knife bolt handle. From information found here and other locations I read that the model 1900 was in 6.5x54M-S. This one was purchased as an 8x56 M-S and appears to be. Having a bit of an issue with ammo though. Bullet diameter listed for these suggests .323 as correct and that is what I was trying. First attempts had several that would not fire. I suspected the shoulder was not supporting the case so I made a new batch of cases by necking up 8x57 Mauser cases to .358 and then using a full length sizer for 8x56 to form a new shoulder. I backed the die off a couple of turns and started sizing and trying the case in the chamber until I got a good fit with the bolt just closing. I shot several of these and although my elevation was off with the fixed and folding rear sight I was generally pleased. I wanted to make a few more cases last night and decided I would use a .338 expander instead of .358. When I went to form the shoulder all of the cases would chamber, no matter how much I backed the die out. So I thought my chamber is a little large. Then for some reason I picked up a .308 bullet on my bench and stuck it nose first into the end of the barrel. I surprised me when it stopped and would not enter completely. I then tried it in 2 8x57 Mauser rifles and the same bullet dropped all the way through the barrel. All this makes me have questions. Does my rifle have a bore made for the .318 diameter bullet? If so, why is my chamber so big? I will try to case a suitable slug to push down the barrel to try and get a correct bore diameter.

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lancaster
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #325315 - 02/03/19 05:57 AM

from here its like looking into a cristal ball

like allways with a new - old rilfe slug the barrel and make a chamber cast

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: lancaster]
      #325347 - 03/03/19 11:22 AM

I'd follow Lancaster's advice, slug the bore and do a chamber cast (or have it done). That is the surest (and simple) way to get an accurate model of precisely what your bore and throat dimensions are.

All 'proper' M1900 Mannlicher Schönauer rifles and carbines were chambered for the 6.5X54MS. Is your scope mount dovetailed through the front ring, or is the model designation still visible?


The original chambering for the M1908 model would be the 8X56MS, as such,:


If you have a modified M1900 it's anybody's guess what feeds it, so straight back to Lancaster's advice.

Perhaps this may be helpful?:




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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #326022 - 19/03/19 01:40 AM

Where the scope claw mount is on the receiver ring I can only read "M 1900". The right side of the barrel has the number 295 and a Vienna proof mark. It appears to have been re-blued.I pushed a slug down the barrel and my groove diameter is .326, 4-grooves, and my land diameter is .308 with 4 lands. Left side of receiver is marked "Oesterr.Waffenfabr.-Ges.Steyr. I have shot it again since my first post and it shoots very well with standard .323 bullets. I guess somewhere along the line someone could have re-barreled a 6.5x54 with this 8x56 barrel and then re-blued it.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #326067 - 19/03/19 08:19 PM

If there is genuinely M1900 written on top then it would have been a 6.5x54 originally as the 8x56 never came out until 1908.

However the width of the body of the M1900 and M1903 is smaller than that of the M1905, M1908 and M1910 as the 6.5mm cartridge has a smaller body diameter than the 8mm cartridge. Therefore it would be a lot of work to convert the M1900 to 8mm if it is even possible, especially when you can buy an M1908 fairly cheaply as it was the least popular model and that is still the case today.

Matt.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #326111 - 20/03/19 05:26 PM

Quote:

Where the scope claw mount is on the receiver ring I can only read "M 1900".

Left side of receiver is marked "Oesterr.Waffenfabr.-Ges.Steyr.




Photos?


'Oesterr. Waffenfabr. - Ges. Steyr', short for Österreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft Steyr (Austrian Arms-Manufacturing Company - Steyr), was marked on the left side of the receiver of all Mannlicher Schönauer rifles and stutzen until sometime in 1926 when the company name was changed to Steyr-Werke AG.

When was it proofed? Look for numbers such as these:

The above example was proofed in 1907, the 711th arm proofed at the Vienna Proof House for that year. The stylized 'NPv' is the 'Nitro Proof' for Vienna. The 'C 9.0' indicates a 9mm bore, which would be the original chambering (9X56) for the M1905.

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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #326785 - 03/04/19 08:38 AM

I can see the Nitro Proof mark as above but anything else must be below the stock line. The screw to take it down is so narrow and shallow I need to cut a bit to take it out. It has been reblued at some time and this may have erased some marks. On the receiver I can make out a crown over N proof mark and to the right of that is St m g. I slugged the bore with a soft lead slug and it has a .326 groove diameter and .3085 land diameter, 4 lands and grooves.
I was lucky at an auction recently and scored 4 boxes of Western 8.56 M-S ammo, 200 gr. soft point. The last box I had split when I started shooting them so I stopped, pulled the bullets, punched the primer out, and annealed the cases. The splitting stopped. With the ammo I just bought I started by pulling the bullets and keeping the powder which looked fresh enough to shoot, punched the primers and annealed the cases. Luckily, all 4 boxes were the same lot number. I weighed each charge and got an average of 49.4 gr. of what looked like IMR 4350. I will re-assemble the rounds with a fresh primer and see how they do. I got all 4 boxes along with a 25 round box of shotgun shells and 3 5-round boxes of slugs, shipped for $56. I am tickled to have 80 original Lubaloy soft-nose bullets and new brass.
I have been shooting 170 gr. 8mm Silvertips I found loaded with 46.0 IMR4320 for 2370fps oal 2.965.
I do need to adjust the set trigger because all I have to do is touch it and it goes. Fun with a old rifle like this.

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kuduae
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #326787 - 03/04/19 10:12 AM

Quote:

On the receiver I can make out a crown over N proof mark and to the right of that is St m g. e this.



These are German, not Austrian, proofmarks. They point to some rework. Take the rifle apart and let us see the rest of the proofmarks.


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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: kuduae]
      #326793 - 03/04/19 12:20 PM

I will as soon as I can make a screwdriver bit to fit that skinny slot.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #326798 - 03/04/19 05:38 PM

German, Austrian proof marks from the 1939 Stoeger catalog:



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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #327022 - 09/04/19 12:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Where the scope claw mount is on the receiver ring I can only read "M 1900".

Left side of receiver is marked "Oesterr.Waffenfabr.-Ges.Steyr.




Photos?


'Oesterr. Waffenfabr. - Ges. Steyr', short for Österreichische Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft Steyr (Austrian Arms-Manufacturing Company - Steyr), was marked on the left side of the receiver of all Mannlicher Schönauer rifles and stutzen until sometime in 1926 when the company name was changed to Steyr-Werke AG.

When was it proofed? Look for numbers such as these:

The above example was proofed in 1907, the 711th arm proofed at the Vienna Proof House for that year. The stylized 'NPv' is the 'Nitro Proof' for Vienna. The 'C 9.0' indicates a 9mm bore, which would be the original chambering (9X56) for the M1905.





I got it apart and found the following proofs.
on the right side of the receiver is 953 .01 and the NPv nitro proof. On the barrel is 953 .01
C 6.5
1606G
So it looks like originally it was a 6.5x54 and has been re-bored to 8x56. I also found further underneath the barrel 7.8m/m
.57
935
16
I also found the German Crown over N nitro proof over the above numbers. The serial # 295 is on the barrel and receiver as well as other parts including the stock. The 953rd rifle proofed in 1901 makes this an old one.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #327025 - 09/04/19 03:06 PM

Quote:




I got it apart and found the following proofs.
on the right side of the receiver is 953 .01 and the NPv nitro proof. On the barrel is 953 .01
C 6.5
1606G
So it looks like originally it was a 6.5x54 and has been re-bored to 8x56. I also found further underneath the barrel 7.8m/m
.57
935
16
I also found the German Crown over N nitro proof over the above numbers. The serial # 295 is on the barrel and receiver as well as other parts including the stock. The 953rd rifle proofed in 1901 makes this an old one.




Your Austrian proof marks indicate that both receiver and barrel were originally an M1900, a very special rifle indeed.

The rebore is unfortunate. Not only is it an alteration from its original state, but if it were still 6.5X54 you'd have readily available ammunition of a legendary round. We can only guess what magazine is in it (an M1908, or a reconfigured 6.5X54?). Will it feed well?

As it is, your options seem to be:

a) Slug the chamber and Wildcat some loads to see how they do. Perhaps the prior owner was on to something.

b) Have it rebored again to a larger cartridge that is readily available, but would still be safe for the barrel (magazine rotor would have to closely match cartridge profile).

c) Have it rebarreled (keep the original). Various 'Greek Contract' military Mannlicher Schönauers were 6.5X54 and are more readily available, as are parts (including magazines, rotors).

d*) Have the barrel lined to the original specification, get an M1903 magazine for it.

Regardless of which (or other) option you choose, consider that an M1900 Mannlicher Schönauer is to bolt action rifles what a Duesenberg is to automobiles. Though it would be expensive, a full restoration may be the way to go.

Photos?


Where is your cartridge release button located? is it between the receiver and the stock thus?
If so it is among the earliest of M1900 Mannlicher Schönauers:


Or is it surrounded by steel as in this image?:


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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #327072 - 10/04/19 06:26 AM

Cartridge release button is between the stock and receiver as in the first picture. A serial number of 295 would make it an early issue, initially proofed in 1901. The magazine is original as it has the same serial number on the magazine body as well as the follower. I will try and get some pics uploaded.

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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #327086 - 10/04/19 09:14 AM







I hope these pictures turn out. A learning experience with Photobucket.

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Edited by tact1 (10/04/19 09:30 AM)


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #327094 - 10/04/19 01:18 PM

Quote:

Cartridge release button is between the stock and receiver as in the first picture... The magazine is original as it has the same serial number on the magazine body as well as the follower.




Color me jealous! Is the magazine rotor unaltered (if not it can be replaced)?

I'd recommend a full and proper restoration. You have a very special firearm.

Do you have the scope? If not, 'age appropriate' European scopes are somewhat common (though rather expensive) on Ebay these days, and New England Custom Gun has claw mount rings. I understand they should only be mounted by one who is very familiar with mounting such rings for precise alignment (my M1910 has its original Gerard 'B').

Here's a link:NECG

Your photos look fine. Many have had problems with Photobucket in the past, however, and photos posted through PB have 'vanished'.

Try this if you have any problems: Post Photos to NitroExpress


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #327095 - 10/04/19 01:52 PM

Your rifle has a cousin: GunAuction

Here's a link to a very informative thread regarding the M1900 from the fine folks at NitroExpressForums wherein member Paradox shares a very unique example: M1900

His is built on the MS 'Factory Takedown System' as shown in the 1939 Stoeger:


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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #327205 - 12/04/19 02:48 PM

Don't think I want to have someone restore it. It will never be original again. New barrel? not original. Current barrel is the one it was born with. It may have been neglected and rusted from corrosive primers, who knows. Now it is usable and enjoyable so it may remain that way. I would like to get a spring pin for the forend, may even find one with a sling swivel attachment as well. The rifle shown in the link to Gun Auction has such a pin in the forend.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #327210 - 12/04/19 04:17 PM

Quote:

Don't think I want to have someone restore it.




It's your rifle.

Besides, the conversion is part of that particular rifle's history.

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kuduae
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #327217 - 13/04/19 03:52 AM

The proofmarks shwn tell a lot more about the history of this M 1900 Mannlicher – Schoenauer, seial number 295: The rifle was first proofed in Austria in 1901. Quite soon it came to Germany. As the Austrian proof was not valid in Germany pre-WW1, it was proofed again as a 6.5x54 before 1911, while the old gauge numbers were still in use. The CROWN – crown/N proofmarks indicate proof using the "4000 atm special rifle proof powder", while the gauge number 278 stands for a bore/land diameter of the barrel of 6.5 mm. Much later it was rebored/rerifled and rechambered in Germany to an 8mm cartridge. The "Repair" crown/R mark is faintly visible abve 7,8 mm. It was reproofed 935 = September 1935 by the Zella – Mehlis proofhouse, shown by the ledger number 16. But you should recheck the "new" chambering: The 7.8 mm bore / 57 mm case length speak more for a 8x57 I. The minimum bore diameter of the 8x56 M-S was 7.9 mm then. In 1935 the 8x57I was a common hunting cartridge in Germany, while the 8x56 M-S was a rare bird.
Btw, this M1900 serial number 295 in "8x56" was listed by another Mannlicher collector before with the remark "Poulin Oct. 2017".
You are asking for a "spring pin" for the foreend of your rifle? Spring pins were peculiar to the Take down Mannlicher-Schoenauers . Common on all other Mannlicher – Schoenauers were those stirrup type sling swivels with a screw like on the M1900 number 198 on GunAuction.com. That rifle was reproofed in Ferlach 242 = February 1942 btw. Stirrup sling swivels are available from Brownells and others.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: kuduae]
      #327230 - 13/04/19 03:43 PM

Quote:

Much later it was rebored/rerifled and rechambered in Germany to an 8mm cartridge. The "Repair" crown/R mark is faintly visible abve 7,8 mm. It was reproofed 935 = September 1935 by the Zella – Mehlis proofhouse, shown by the ledger number 16. But you should recheck the "new" chambering: The 7.8 mm bore / 57 mm case length speak more for a 8x57 I. The minimum bore diameter of the 8x56 M-S was 7.9 mm then. In 1935 the 8x57I was a common hunting cartridge in Germany, while the 8x56 M-S was a rare bird.




Here's a bit from the 1939 Stoeger Catalog. Perhaps not directly relevant to tact1's M1900, as that's not exactly a 'converted military rifle', but it may be of interest:

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tact1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #327525 - 21/04/19 07:19 AM

The picture here is of 3 cases: An original Winchester 8x56 M-S which has never been fired, next is a Remington 8x57 Mauser, and last is an 8x56 M-S that has been correctly sized to fit my chamber. The shoulder has been moved forward a little.
https://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q488/JodyPBahamaNC/Steyr-Mannlicher_zpsoz3fme3d.jpg
Notice the shoulder on the last case looks a little further forward than the 8x57 Mauser case. After reading kuduae's post I tried an 8mm Mauser in my rifle-it chambered with no issue. I tried a PPU 8x57 200grain Match round, it chambered as well. Tried a few Military rounds with 150 gr bullet and only 2 of them would go in the magazine, but the second round would not chamber from the magazine. Only the first round would work through the action. So evidently no one bother to change the magazine. As soon as I get some more 8x56 rounds loaded I will try these in the magazine. It looks like I have a mutt instead of a German Shepherd.

Edited by tact1 (21/04/19 07:40 AM)


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93x64mm
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: tact1]
      #327529 - 21/04/19 08:01 AM

Silly question gents?
Could tact1 get his original barrel set back say 1 or 2 threads & recambered back to 8x56MS again?
It would save to original rifle per say & be in an original MS calibre - may even fix the rotor/feed issue as these are specific.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Questions about Model 1900 M-S [Re: 93x64mm]
      #327539 - 21/04/19 02:57 PM

Quote:

Silly question gents?
Could tact1 get his original barrel set back say 1 or 2 threads & recambered back to 8x56MS again?
It would save to original rifle per say & be in an original MS calibre - may even fix the rotor/feed issue as these are specific.




Makes good sense to me.

Perhaps the 'mutt' (which any of us would gladly adopt, I'm sure), could become a thoroughbred again?

I'd still favor the idea of having the original barrel bored, sleeved, and chambered to the original 6.5X54 if it were mine.

It would be like relining the cylinders of a Duesenberg with its original engine that had been overbored for oversize pistons. After the reline, you're back to the original piston, or in this case cartridge, size.

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