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Hook
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Reged: 01/03/18
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Loc: Heart of Dixie
Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54
      #324928 - 20/02/19 12:07 PM

I am in the process of working up some 160gr cast RN loads for my 1903. Since I have found zero information on the net, I asked over at the Cast Bullet Forum if anyone had any personal experience and got no answers. Thought I'd check here to see if anyone has already traveled this path and might be willing to share their results.

I've started with very light charges and velocities are running in the 1400 fps range. Also got an email back from Accurate Powder on some ideas about using 5744. I figure if I can get something up in the 1800 fps +/- range that is accurate and doesn't lead too badly, it should hit close to the same POI as my 160 jacketed bullet zero. It'll be a fun practice load and I may even try to take a whitetail with it.

Suggestions?

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Sarg
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Hook]
      #324932 - 20/02/19 12:40 PM

I have a old manual here with some loads, 6.5 Jap also as it is close, any good to you ?

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DarylS
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Hook]
      #324936 - 20/02/19 01:11 PM

1st of all. Lyman Gun Sight Corporation - followed the #41 manual but does not have a date, although a photograph of Guy Lovern casting bullets.
No data for anything over 147 gr.
ALL loaded with Lyman 266469 mould
6.5x53R - 145gr. meduim - 15.0gr. Unique - for deer
6.5 Jap - 147gr. hard - 21gr. IMR4198--- for target
6.5x55 -- 140gr. medium 34.0gr. 3031 --- Varmint
6.5x55 -- 140gr. medium 45.0gr. 4350 --- Deer
6.5mm? -- 145gr. medium 15.0gr. 3031 --- Target

Lyman #45 1970 - same mould

6.5x54 - Custom Mauser 20" bl. 1 in 7 1/2". Norma brass.[/
b]

143gr. #2 alloy - brinel 16.

IMR4227 - 13.0gr. - 1,382fps - 21.0gr. - 1,953fps
IMR4198 - 16.0gr. - 1,510fps - 22.0gr. - 1,918fps
IMR4895 - 19.0gr. - 1,400fps - 30.0gr. - 2,132fps

Note, with 160gr. Jacketed,
starting loads.
with 4895 - 30.0gr. - 1,960fps
with 3031 - 28.0gr. - 1,908fps
with 4064 - 31.0gr. - 1,912fps

Should be easy to extrapolate a load from these starting loads. I would cut these loads by 5gr. or 6 gr. and test with the 160gr. Gas Check, hard bullet.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: DarylS]
      #324941 - 20/02/19 02:41 PM

Seems like a cast bullet such as this could benefit bigly from powder coating.
That way you should not be as concerned crossing the cast/jacketed speed barrier.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Huvius]
      #324944 - 20/02/19 03:21 PM

Absolutely, except the alloy will have to be hard enough to not slump excessively.
That is why I suggested hardened WW - they can be made much harder than any commercial alloy. Monotype is about brinel 26 I think. Heated in the oven and quenched, WW bullets can be hardened up over 30 brinel. As long as they are sized and lubed immediately, they will not soften when sized.
If allowed to harden (12 hours after casting), then sized, the banks will be reduced to brinel 11 or 12 brinel or so.

Seems to me, LBT Blue lube is still available. It allowed me to load hardened cast bullets in my .375H&H up to 2,800fps and still shoot MOA.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Hook
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: DarylS]
      #324949 - 20/02/19 04:22 PM

Sarg, the Jap has 2 gr less water capacity than the M-S and the 6.5 Carcano and 6.5X53R each have 1 grain less. All 4 are chambered in similar strength actions and I think would be considered near equal, at least in terms of lower pressure cast loads. So yes, your load manual data will be very helpful. I am curious who’s manual that was you copied from. I have several old Lyman manuals and they all stopped with 140-145 grain loads because that was the largest 6.5 mold they had. Whatever, that is the first printed loads for 160 gr class cast bullets in any of those 4 cartridge that I have seen and is definitely useful.

Daryl and Huvius, I read up quite a bit on cast and high velocity on the Cast Bullet Forum. I’ve shot cast a lot in rifles and have taken a couple of deer with them, but it has all been larger caliber, 35 and up. 1300 to 1500 fps with those slugs work fine with deer. If I do go after deer with this 1903, I’m going to need mush higher velocity. And I’m going to need the right bullet.

What I have is a nice 160 gr flat point commercially cast (92/6/2 alloy) that feeds perfectly in my rifle and will be great for cheap plinking and practice. If I can find a mold for a similar bullet, I can cast a more serious hunting bullet, probably a dual alloy bullet with a pure lead nose and a hard cast body. They perform similarly to a Nosler according to those that use them. And, I am considering trying powder coating them.

Very good input…..thanks. I’m not sure where I’ll end up with this, maybe with just a good, cheap practice round. But I hope to use them for hunting if I can get to the right comfort level with the end product. At any rate, I’ll enjoy playing with, and shooting more, the neat little 1903!

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Sarg
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Hook]
      #324952 - 20/02/19 05:22 PM

I'm not sure Hook,there is no cover on the darn thing, looks like a Lyman but bloody old, I have a 03 by Gibbs I might shoot some thing with this year to, but I have worked up all my loads & have ammo for the 6.5X53R for use in my other Mannlichers & now my Westley Richards in .375Ex is looking for a run.

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Hook
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Sarg]
      #324959 - 21/02/19 12:48 AM

It certainly looks similar to the old Lyman manuals I have that stop at 140 gr bullet size. I wonder if it could be a pre-Lyman Ideal manual back when Ideal maybe had a heavier mold??? At any rate, I certainly glad you shared it with me. Taking notice of bore diameter and the slight difference in case dimensions, this data certainly can be translated to my 6.5X54.

I noticed that I made 2 somewhat contradictory references above, I think the commercially cast slugs I have can be more accurately described as round flat nose. They are rounded with a small meplat. I've only fired a few thru the chronograph so far and have been handicapped this week with funerals, birthdays, and rain. Heck o'va situation for a retired guy to have to deal with. Maybe next week I can get some development done.

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DarylS
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Hook]
      #324961 - 21/02/19 04:30 AM

The first data I posted in my note, was for a pre #42 manual.
That must date in the 40's, maybe 50's due to the war.
You should easily be able to extrapolate some loads straight from 6.5x54 data for 160gr. jacketed bullets.

To do that, pick a manual that shows both cast and jacketed, as Lyman does. See the co-relationsip between a 140gr. jacketed and the 140+gr. cast loads.
Apply that relationship to the 160gr. Jacketed starting loads and you are off to the races.

Further cast bullet manual I have, is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook which came out in 1972 or 73.
6.5x54 loads in it only go to the 143gr. bullet as well. #266469

The loads are virtually identical to the ones I posted from the Lyman #45, 1970 manual.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: DarylS]
      #324970 - 21/02/19 07:23 AM

Those slugs look good, wish I had some here, bit wrinkled in the casting maybe on some of them ?

Say in the pic's I sent of the manual, the 6.5 M/M Mann is 6.5X54 Mannlicher most likely 6.5X53R to & there is a 160gr load listed there !

You might have missed that ?

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Hook
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Sarg]
      #324971 - 21/02/19 08:24 AM

Nope. I saw it and added it to my notes. These will help tremendously. One thing i was hoping to run across are loads with the medium powders used in cast rifle loads, like 2400 and 4227. but the slow powders work for me too and that's probably what I'll end up using.

Edited by Hook (21/02/19 08:26 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: Hook]
      #324977 - 21/02/19 09:59 AM

I would much rather work with the medium burn rate powders, like H4895 or IMR4895 or maybe even 4198's on the faster rifle powder side. Yes - in the 6.5x54, they are slower when talking about cast bullets, but these are commonly known as medium burning powders.

Getting a slightly slower start of the bullet, rather than the fast punch of a low density load of the pistol powders, I think it a good idea. A slower building of pressure using these medium powders (4895's, 3031, 4198), and not having to use a filler is also a good thing.

Herculese powder 2400 and IMR or H4227 are VERY fast burning rifle powders (.22 Hornet and similar cases) but also very slow burning pistol powders, at the same time & are more commonly thought of as pistol powders - unless you shoot a Hornet, that is.

2400 was developed as THE Hornet powder as it was used to develop 2,400fps - back in the 1920/1930's in the .22Hornet.

They are both good at developing top-end loads in magnum handgun ctgs. like the .44 mag and .357 mag.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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451whitworth
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: DarylS]
      #329090 - 04/06/19 01:44 AM

I haven't been on this sight for a while so I missed this post. I have been using the NOE .270-163FN mold in my 6.5 X 54mm M/S for a few years now. Powder is 26.0 grains of H4895 for 1830 fps or 28.0 grains for 1940 fps. The fast twist rate is not ideal for full power cast bullet loads.

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DarylS
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Re: Cast bullet loads for the 6.5X54 [Re: 451whitworth]
      #329110 - 04/06/19 12:34 PM

Good post, 451whitworth.

Once someone has a 'noted' working load with one powder, it is quite easy to extrapolate this ratio to other powders, especially when looking at 160gr. jacketed data.

H4895 is noted as being capable of 50% loads, that is, 50% of a jacketed load, in a cast load. Although there will be some unburned powder, it will work better at this application than other medium powders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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