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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
How to file in a rear sight on a DR?
      #32410 - 31/05/05 12:17 AM

What kind of file and what kind of technique are used to file in a rear sight on a double rifle?

NECG sells the sight below which fits some doubles and can be filed in to the owner's desired POI.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: 500grains]
      #32432 - 31/05/05 04:48 AM

In reply to:

What kind of file and what kind of technique are used to file in a rear sight on a double rifle?

NECG sells the sight below which fits some doubles and can be filed in to the owner's desired POI.



First off what you are looking at in the picture is the muzzle side of the sight, and if I'm not mistakened, there is a center line engraved on the other side! First, after measureing the origenal sight, if the rifle has one, from the bottom of apreture to the bottom of the sight base. Make a mark a little high on the new sight. you need to mount the sight on the rifle, and center it between the barrels. Mark to top of the new sight's center on top, or follow the center line, if it does have one. With a 4'x5' cardboard useing the top of the back sight, and top of the front sight, shoot at tohe bottom center of the cardboard.
This will let you know if the sight is centered properly. Now, make a thin cut right down the centerline of the sight. Shoot, and then cut the sight deeper, till it is hitting at the proper elevation. At this point, it depends what sight configuration you want, for a wide-V you need to scribe a line from one top corner of the sight to the bottom of the cut you've just made, and on the other side the same way. Now you have a line to file to! After the final shape of the wide-V, then round over the top corners. The flats of each side of the V cut, should slope slightly to the front(Muzzel side)of the sight to avoid glare. Safety files with cuttin surfaces only on one side is needed for this work. Otherwise, use extreme care not to hit the rifle with the file.
I hope this doesn't sound like Greek to you, but it is hard to explain, without pictures!



--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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rgp
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: 500grains]
      #32436 - 31/05/05 05:08 AM

Brownell's used to sell a proper file designed specifically for this. I think the file Brownell's had cuts a 140 degree angle. It is not an angle that was available on files sold in hardware stores.

I did two completely homemade rear sights several years ago using the following method once at the step where it was necessary to cut the notch:

I used a 135 degree v shaped file, which should be available in your local area.

Make certain there is a guide notch in the exact center of the top of the rear blade, if not carefully make one before starting. If possible to get a rear sight that already has the v notch partially done, that would be a better choice, because it is very easy to start the notch with misalignment and if off by even a degree or so it can look abysmal when done. Dugaboy's method of marking sounds a lot better than what I did.

When using the file to cut the v notch, the file stroke should be moved FORWARD ONLY toward the muzzle to insure a clean edge on the rear of the sight.

If you work the file both directions, the the top edge of the v notch in the sight will be rounded, making for a sloppy sight picture when in use. When getting close to point of aim, test fire it after every couple of strokes of the file, because the permanent adjustment will pass through point of aim very quickly.

Remember to practice on scrap metal first.

Richard.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: rgp]
      #32441 - 31/05/05 07:01 AM

Several years ago, I contacted Brownells through their website and suggested that they should carry a file with the correct included angle for doing this job. Their reply was that I was the first and only person to ever request this and they saw no market for it. Perhaps a deluge of requests would cause them to reconsider their position?

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ArnoldB
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: 500grains]
      #32445 - 31/05/05 07:53 AM

If you use a flat file make sure you run the sides on a stone for sharpening chisels as they have a border that sticks out a bit more which will cut into the bottom of the V.
A specific file would be almost useless unless every rear sight is the same width.


Arnold

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rgp
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #32455 - 31/05/05 08:55 AM

Ronvella,

That file for express sights was listed in their catalog during the 1980's before anyone knew what a website was. At the time I had the paged marked and circled it in red ink. It was on a page with the various express sights they offered. Unfortunately I can't remember who manufactured the file.

Before I posted my response to 500grains, I looked over the Brownell's website to see if they still sold the same file and could find no listing for it.

Richard.

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rgp
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: ArnoldB]
      #32457 - 31/05/05 08:59 AM

Flat files are not used for cutting a V notch.

The files used for the job have the V shape on the cutting side, and since cutting an angle, one size fits all because the angle does not change.

Richard.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: rgp]
      #32531 - 01/06/05 07:02 AM

Richard,
Your post about the file sure stopped me cold. I have every Brownell's catalogue from 1979 up to 2005 and I read them line for line when I receive them. When I read your post I thought "Boy, I wouldn't have missed that", so I spent a couple of hours leafing through '79 to '87. There is no such file listed that I can find. There is listed, on the same page as the sights, as you said, a 3-square sight file. These have parallel sides, 2 safe sides, and 60 degree included angles. They are for filing dovetail slots in barrels, etc. I wonder if this is the file you were thinking of. A file for cutting the shallow-V rear sights, for dangerous game rifles, would have an included angle of 120 to 130 degrees.

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rgp
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #32534 - 01/06/05 08:07 AM

ronvella,

The files were not dovetail files. If I'm wrong about the Brownell's catalog then I have no idea what catalog they came from. The only details I remember about the ones I saw for sale is that they were made by a gunsmith in England and cut approximately a 140 degree shallow v specifically for sighting in fixed express type sight blades.

Most gunsmiths probably still make their own files for this job. If you want a 120 degree shallow V, a 120 is available from a well stocked hardware store, and Brownell's or Midway should have 130 degree V's. The 120 and 130 degree cuts don't look shallow when done though.

The 135 degree shallow V that I used seemed to be "close enough" and probably originated at a hardware store.

Richard

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k80
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: rgp]
      #32536 - 01/06/05 09:29 AM

Brownell's catalog is so messed up.
Who knows where things show up. Just
when you think you know where something
should be, it wont be.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
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Loc: Idaho
Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: k80]
      #32765 - 08/06/05 09:41 AM

I found a file some time ago at a local store here in Twin Falls, Id., with the perfect angle to cut shallow Vs, I bought two of them, wish I had bought all of them..they are a shallow V at just the right angle, and are smooth on the top side...Never seen them before or since....

It makes no difference what size the sight is, why would it unless or course it was wider than the file, but that would be an easy adjustment.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: atkinson6]
      #32774 - 08/06/05 11:12 AM

Ray, is there a manufacturer's name on those files? You're a lucky dog!

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rgp
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #32779 - 08/06/05 12:50 PM

ronvella,

As a last resort if unable to find exactly what you want, some hardware stores should have 135 degree V's but the flat surface isn't smooth on the few I've seen. A shallower angle may be preferable if available as the 135 seems a bit deep unless your front bead is fairly large.

I don't remember where mine came from but I probably found it in a welder's old truck that I had purchased for farm use for the princely sum of $200 (truck, tools, arc welder, etc all included).

Richard.

EDIT: if I got it out of the old welding truck, it should have come from a local hardware store as I cannot imagine why a welder in rural Texas would be getting special order files. I think at the time he was in business the only stores in the area were affiliated with True Value or ACE.

Edited by rgp (08/06/05 12:53 PM)

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vigillinus
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: rgp]
      #32951 - 12/06/05 09:34 AM

after you get your V filed put a vertical white line underneath it up to its center or you can do what I did, make a small triangle of white paper, glue it in and coat it point up with clear epoxy glue.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: vigillinus]
      #32952 - 12/06/05 10:08 AM

If you take it to a jewellry maker, for a pretty nominal fee, he will do it the correct way and inlay a fine platinum wire for you.

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rgp
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #32955 - 12/06/05 02:31 PM

ronvella,

A question, because I've only seen platinum used in jewelry and was not aware it is used for rear sights.

What are the advantages of platinum? Does it stay bright and not tarnish over time as do most bright metals?

Thank you,

Richard.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: rgp]
      #32970 - 13/06/05 03:25 AM

Richard,
That is exactly correct and is why so many British makers used it for this purpose.

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vigillinus
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #32974 - 13/06/05 06:45 AM

Gold doesn't tarnish either. I guess if you have a gold bead up front you can use a gold vertical line, if a white or silver bead you can use platinum. But what if the sight is gold and the popup night bead is white? Problems, problems.

The best rear sight I can recall is on a Gye and Moncrieff black powder hammer .360 I saw decades ago at Abercrombie & Fitch and again a few months back at a CT dealer, no shallow V, just a flat leaf maybe 2" wide across both barrels with a big white enamel triangle, point up, under the center. Big fixed white enamel bead up front. This is one lovely little rifle.

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4seventy
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Re: How to file in a rear sight on a DR? [Re: 500grains]
      #33003 - 13/06/05 05:33 PM

In reply to:

What kind of file and what kind of technique are used to file in a rear sight on a double rifle?




Someone with great technique could most likely use just about any file. (cept for a rattail or chainsaw file)

Someone with a great file but little technique should not even attempt this job!

The most important thing to remember is that it ain't hard to take metal off the sight but it sure ain't easy to put metal back!

Hasten slowly on this one.

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