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Ripp
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The-case-for-the-1911...
      #323860 - 27/01/19 01:34 AM

https://www.policeone.com/police-product...U0y__llCzCrCHeU


If there was a ribbon for the title of “America’s pistol,” there's no doubt in my mind it would hang from the trigger guard of a 1911. John Moses Browning’s masterpiece served our military from the time they rode into battle on horseback, until the specialized units retired it just a few years ago. No other American military small arm has ever served for so long.

The 1911 shares an equally long tradition as a law enforcement handgun. By the time my great-grandfather and his fellow U.S. Army soldiers pursued Pancho Villa in the Punitive Expedition, the 1911 had already been chosen by some of the desert Southwest’s hardest lawmen. Several generations of G.I.s returning from the world wars decided it would make a dandy police sidearm when they traded army green for police blue, and the gun made a name for itself in the fight against motor bandits, gangsters and common criminals. By mid-century, the 1911 had become the clear choice for the minority of American lawmen who weren't bound to a double action revolver.

WINDS OF CHANGE

Despite this success, the 1911 fell on hard times around the 1970s. The mayhem and violence of the “peace and love” era spurred some foolish attempts to blunt the authoritarian image of the police, in the hopes it would pacify the criminal masses. In an era where administrators repainted black and whites in softer colors to make them look less aggressive, there was little enthusiasm in some places for an “army gun” that (horrors!) was carried with the hammer cocked back – something which prompted many citizens (and chiefs!) to develop a case of the vapors.

The 1911 hung on in isolated pockets – mostly on the left coast and in the Southwest – but got left behind in the “Wondernine” rush of the 1980s and early 1990s. A funny thing happened on the way to the show, however, because the old warhorse started to make a comeback in police holsters by the post-9/11 era. This was a hopeful development for the centenarian, but sadly the design continues to face resistance, and has even been replaced in some of the traditional 1911 strongholds, over the loud objections of the officers.

STILL A CONTENDER
While it's increasingly fashionable to mock the 1911 as an outdated and unreliable design, there's a solid argument for the modern 1911 as a law enforcement duty pistol.

Some of the strengths that make the modern 1911 eminently suitable for police use include:

1. Debugged technology

The 1911 has been around the block…a hundred times…and the kinks have been worked out. We know what it takes to make the 1911 work and keep it that way. By comparison, some of the newer guns have had a more difficult teething period. It's often been difficult to keep up with the number of product recalls, “upgrades,” generational changes and agency teletype warnings in the polymer era. Some of the new polymer guns have exhibited significant design and quality control issues, and we’ve seen several agency transitions come to a screeching halt when problems arose with newly adopted designs. We’ve seen manufacturers blame design flaws and QC issues on ammo selection, shooter technique, the phase of the moon and a hundred other things when their plastic pistols wouldn't work, as the 1911 quietly soldiered on. This makes sense, since its beta-testing was complete around 1924.

2. Safety

The modern 1911 has more mechanical safeties than any other popular service pistol. Grip safety? Check. Disconnector safety? Check. Drop safety? Check (even the non-“Series 80” guns are drop safe with their lightweight firing pins and heavy springs, or Swartz-style firing pin blocks). Unlike most of the popular striker-fired duty guns, the 1911 boasts an external thumb safety, which requires a separate, deliberate action to ready the gun for firing, instead of relying solely on trigger finger discipline in a moment of stress. The 1911 also has an external hammer, which aids an officer’s awareness of the pistol’s condition, and facilitates a dramatically enhanced level of safety when reholstering by allowing an officer to “thumb check” the hammer and restrain it as the pistol is seated. Safety-conscious administrators who get a little weak-kneed when they see a cocked and locked 1911 in a duty holster should remember that the 1911 has more layers of redundant safeties, and requires more deliberate actions to fire, than any striker-fired design ever invented. In fact, most of the striker-fired guns in duty holsters are the functional equivalents of carrying a 1911 with the hammer cocked and the safety OFF. Think about that for a moment.

The thumb safety, grip safety, trigger, magazine button, grips and slide lock on this Colt Series 70 1911 can all be replaced to custom fit the gun for a variety of hand sizes. (Photo/Mike Wood)
The thumb safety, grip safety, trigger, magazine button, grips and slide lock on this Colt Series 70 1911 can all be replaced to custom fit the gun for a variety of hand sizes. (Photo/Mike Wood)
3. Concealability

Despite having a large frame and slide, the 1911 is flat and has some curves in the right places to help it ride comfortably when concealed and minimize printing. Some of the modern designs, with their boxy slides and grips, feel like you're trying to conceal a section of 4” x 4” post in your waistband, but the 1911 rides close and doesn't tend to print as much, which undercover and off-duty officers will appreciate.

Even though it is a big gun, the 1911 carries flat and makes a good choice for concealment. (Photo/Mike Wood)
Even though it is a big gun, the 1911 carries flat and makes a good choice for concealment. (Photo/Mike Wood)
4. Ergonomics

The 1911 is an exceptionally ergonomic pistol. The grip to frame angle seems to hit the sweet spot for most users, allowing the gun to point where desired without conscious correction. The beavertail of the modern 1911 helps to tame recoil and improve control. Most important, the thumb safety is perfectly accessible and operates in the proper direction, disengaging on the downward stroke as the hand naturally closes to assume a solid grasp. The slide-mounted safeties popular on other guns are harder to reach, and operate in the wrong direction, forcing the user to open and weaken his grip on the pistol to disengage the safety. These guns run counter to our physiology, and don't support our normal reactions to stress like the 1911.

5. Adaptable

The 1911 has a long grip from stem to stern, by virtue of being designed around the .45 ACP cartridge, but its single column magazine makes it relatively thin compared to double stack pistols. Since it's the original “modular pistol,” triggers, grips, mainspring housings and grip safeties can be mixed and matched to change the trigger reach and fit it to most any hand. Same with the safety lever, magazine release and slide stop, which can be swapped for extended controls that put them within easy reach of a short thumb. It's been known for a long time that the “manly .45” is an excellent gun for a woman’s (typically) smaller hand. Female officers who struggle with pistols that have wide, boxy, double stack grips with long trigger reaches will usually shoot much better with a properly fitted 1911, and so will men with smaller hands. Another aspect of the 1911’s adaptability is that it has kept pace with the times. The modern 1911 has an equipment rail for lights and lasers (which won't make the gun choke, as we saw with some of the popular polymer models), and some variants can accommodate slide-mounted optical sights.

6. Disassembly

The 1911 does not require the trigger to be pulled as part of the disassembly. This feature helps to reduce serious injuries caused by negligent handlers, and prevent unwanted holes in police station lockers, walls, floors, ceilings and furniture.

7. Logistics

The 1911 enjoys robust market support. Spare parts, holsters, grips, sights, tools, lights, lasers and other supplies are abundant. Just about every major pistol manufacturer makes a variant of the gun, making it the most widely offered and varied design on the market. Agencies won't have to put up with terrible customer service from a maker with exclusive rights to parts and maintenance support – a situation which has caused one notable brand’s otherwise excellent products to be dropped by many agencies.

8. Proprietary nature to the user

Respected police trainer Massad Ayoob noted several decades ago that the 1911’s external safety lever affords an extra degree of safety to an officer who has been disarmed by an attacker. There have been many documented incidents where attackers disarmed officers equipped with semiauto pistols but were unfamiliar with the operation of the safety lever, which prevented them from firing the gun. Interestingly, this situation may be even more probable now than it was when Ayoob first reported on it in the mid-1980s, because the striker-fired era has accustomed new generations of thugs to pistols that require nothing but a trigger pull to fire the gun. As a result, the 1911’s safety lever may give an officer a brief opportunity to recapture his weapon or access another one to end the threat after being disarmed.

9. Practical accuracy

The single action trigger of the 1911 is typically short and light, allowing shooters to do good work with the pistol. The handling qualities of the design are so strong that the 1911 dominates in all the shooting sports where multiple targets must be hit under time pressure – conditions which bear more than a passing resemblance to those found in a gunfight.

10. Consistency

The manual of arms on the 1911 promotes consistency across weapons platforms. Like the patrol rifle and shotgun, the 1911 requires the user to first deactivate a manual safety prior to firing, and that manual safety operates in the same direction on the 1911 and popular AR rifle (which has replaced the shotgun entirely, in many agencies). Since officers will fire many more rounds through their pistol in training than they will with their long guns, equipping them with a 1911 promotes good habits that will carry over to the less familiar weapons. Officers who train extensively with pistols that only require a trigger press to fire will sometimes forget to off-safe their long guns in a moment of stress or place them back on safe when the danger is over. The 1911 forces officers to be conscious of the safety lever, enhancing safety and consistency in training and operations.

BUT WAIT, THAT'S NOT ALL!
The objective arguments in support of the 1911 are compelling enough, but there are a host of subjective factors that must be considered as well. The 1911 is a design with a rich history and a reputation as a hard-hitting pistol that stops fights quickly. These qualities have endeared it to many officers, who feel more confident carrying this pistol than any other.

When an officer is confident in his equipment, and his ability to use it, it translates into improved officer presence. That, in turn, helps to improve an officer's control of the situation, deter assaults on the officer and reduce the chance the officer will need to use force at all.

Confidence and pride in equipment is an important part of morale – something which is frequently in short supply these days, as the attacks and demands on the profession become more extreme.

FACTS, NOT EMOTIONS
The case for the 1911 as a law enforcement duty pistol is a strong one. As with any other police weapon, there are strengths and weaknesses to the design. Additionally, there are training and maintenance issues that must be carefully attended to in order to ensure the greatest reliability and success with the pistol. However, the 1911 has proven, over the course of a hundred-plus years, that it's capable of doing the job efficiently and safely.

Police administrators should give it a fair chance, and evaluate it on the merits, not the hype. If they do, they’ll find there's still a lot to like about Browning’s masterpiece.

About the author
Mike Wood is the son of a 30-year California Highway Patrolman and the author of "Newhall Shooting: A Tactical Analysis," the highly-acclaimed study of the 1970 California Highway Patrol gunfight in Newhall, California. Mike is an Honor Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, a graduate of the US Army Airborne School, and a retired US Air Force Lieutenant Colonel with over 26 years of service. He’s a National Rifle Association (NRA) Law Enforcement Division-certified firearms instructor, serves as a member of the PoliceOne Editorial Advisory Board, and has written the “Tactical Analysis” column at PoliceOne.com since 2014. Mike is the senior editor at RevolverGuy.com, and has been a featured guest on the Excellence In Training Academy and American Warrior Society podcasts, as well as several radio and television programs. He’s grateful for the opportunity to serve and learn from the men and women of law enforcement.



--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (27/01/19 02:05 AM)


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 11625
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Ripp]
      #323914 - 28/01/19 05:03 AM

Geeze Daryl,

Figured you'd be all over this one..being a staunch proponent for the antiquated 45acp..


--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Iowa_303s
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Ripp]
      #323917 - 28/01/19 08:14 AM

Hold on Ripp.
It seems as though your original post got buried in the avalanche of posts since January 19th.
If we keep it near the top, I'm sure Daryl will be along shortly.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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Daryl_S
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #323923 - 28/01/19 11:35 AM

LOL - got Ripp's e-mail and came right here. Don't know why I missed it this morning.
All, the .45 ACP 1911 - I've been thinking I need to buy another one.
Alas. I sold my slightly altered 1922 years ago, to a lass who wanted it for a Christmas present for her husband.
Wilson barrel, ported, new links, springs, bushings - trigger, sear - well worked on a little buy a buffoon- me.
But work it did.
It loved cast RN's and fed SWCs as well, but for longer range accuracy, it favoured the 260gr. Speer HP, driven by 12.0gr.
W630 powder. That clocked out at 960fps and smacked that bear HARD, right through both lungs.
I did head-shoot the other, a mite closer in the side of the head with a 230 hardball - lol.
Yeah - liked the 1911 I purchased as a .38 Super, but changed it over after getting a .45 Colt Treatise with articles on the
.45 by Ed Sanow and a bunch of others, including Jeff Cooper.
I was hooked on the "big bore" hard and fast. I wasn't much interested with the 185 SWC's that most guys
were shooting in IPSC, I wanted power, which led me from the 250gr. SWC to the 300gr. .45/90 bullet sized down to .452".
With 7.7gr. Blue Dot, it rang out at 770fps and smacked my steel plates so hard, they'd re-set themselves.
Yes - .45 Colt, for work, personal protection or protection in the field.
With those 300gr., I know they'd work on grizzlies, but then, so would the 260 Speers.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Daryl_S]
      #323942 - 28/01/19 10:49 PM

Daryl,

It sounds like you had that thing supercharged!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: CptCurl]
      #323943 - 29/01/19 12:35 AM

https://www.nighthawkcustom.com/

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Daryl_S
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Ripp]
      #323952 - 29/01/19 05:55 AM

LOL
11.9gr. (I used 12.0)W630 with the 260gr.HP Speer was a load straight out of Speer's manual. 960fps from the Wilson bl.
The 300's where real thumpers though with the 7.7gr. BD loads.
That load was out of the 3-book treatise I noted. I'm still looking for them. I know they are here. I loaned them to my bro and pretty sure I recall him giving them back.
230 FMJ hardball ammo made nice "plinkers".
At a time when the 'best' custom .45's of note, were making 1" Ransom Rest groups at 50 yards, I was quite happy with my 2" to 2 1/2" groups off bags. At 25 yards, it just chewed a little hole of 1 to 1 1/2". Those Wilson barrels really shot well. Getting the bushing and links right, also is a must.

Out of the box, the first .45 ACP 1911 I shot was a nickle plated early 1970's model. I borrowed it as I just couldn't get out of "C" class IPSC with my 4" .44 mag M29. In that, I used Special cases, with 250SWC of course, and 17.5gr. Herc. 2400. That was fun. But reloads really spanked me for time. The recoil didn't help, either.

The first IPSC shoot I entered with the borrowed pistol, I used WW hardball & placed 11 th (Hmm or was it 8th?) out of 75 shooters. I wasn't quite at the bottom of "A"class, but was very happy to be where I was. No one in "A" shot anything but .45's. That stock gun, mil-spec sights, was a breeze to shoot - double taps were simple. That was 1976, I think.

In about 1980 I went down to the Justice Institute for some courses and managed to get into another IPSC event, this time borrowing a model 1917 in .45 Colt. LOL - that was fun. I still managed to stay in A, although I don't quite know how I did that. Shooting Speer's "flying ashtrays" with 10gr. Unique. Must have had speed loaders of some sort, otherwise couldn't have happened.

I was putting on IPSC-type courses for the RCMP and my team's boy's (& one Mounty girl)up here at the jail range, in PG (the maggots didn't like it LOL), set up so their revolvers could be competitive. I switched back and forth between the .45 1911 and my 4"M29. With the ..45ACP - no contest. That was a lot of "fun with guns".

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Daryl_S]
      #324013 - 30/01/19 12:53 AM

Quote:

LOL
11.9gr. (I used 12.0)W630 with the 260gr.HP Speer was a load straight out of Speer's manual. 960fps from the Wilson bl.
The 300's where real thumpers though with the 7.7gr. BD loads.
That load was out of the 3-book treatise I noted. I'm still looking for them. I know they are here. I loaned them to my bro and pretty sure I recall him giving them back.
230 FMJ hardball ammo made nice "plinkers".
At a time when the 'best' custom .45's of note, were making 1" Ransom Rest groups at 50 yards, I was quite happy with my 2" to 2 1/2" groups off bags. At 25 yards, it just chewed a little hole of 1 to 1 1/2". Those Wilson barrels really shot well. Getting the bushing and links right, also is a must.

Out of the box, the first .45 ACP 1911 I shot was a nickle plated early 1970's model. I borrowed it as I just couldn't get out of "C" class IPSC with my 4" .44 mag M29. In that, I used Special cases, with 250SWC of course, and 17.5gr. Herc. 2400. That was fun. But reloads really spanked me for time. The recoil didn't help, either.

The first IPSC shoot I entered with the borrowed pistol, I used WW hardball & placed 11 th (Hmm or was it 8th?) out of 75 shooters. I wasn't quite at the bottom of "A"class, but was very happy to be where I was. No one in "A" shot anything but .45's. That stock gun, mil-spec sights, was a breeze to shoot - double taps were simple. That was 1976, I think.

In about 1980 I went down to the Justice Institute for some courses and managed to get into another IPSC event, this time borrowing a model 1917 in .45 Colt. LOL - that was fun. I still managed to stay in A, although I don't quite know how I did that. Shooting Speer's "flying ashtrays" with 10gr. Unique. Must have had speed loaders of some sort, otherwise couldn't have happened.

I was putting on IPSC-type courses for the RCMP and my team's boy's (& one Mounty girl)up here at the jail range, in PG (the maggots didn't like it LOL), set up so their revolvers could be competitive. I switched back and forth between the .45 1911 and my 4"M29. With the ..45ACP - no contest. That was a lot of "fun with guns".




That's quite a resume of experience Daryl.. good info..and interesting to read..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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3DogMike
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Ripp]
      #324026 - 30/01/19 09:26 AM

+1 for Daryl’s resume as well.

As for me:
For out on the trail I have my stainless Colt Delta Elite 10mm; upgraded with Novak tritium sights, Wilson full length guide rod, 25lb spring and recoil buffer, and arched mainspring housing. Loaded with 220grain Buffalo Bore.

For my “Barbeque Gun”?........well it’s a Kimber Pro Carry .45ACP bone stock except for an arched mainspring housing. Federal Hydra Shock 230’s.

I just like the feel of the arched mainspring housing on a 1911 so both of them got the switch.
- Mike

EDIT: still have and carry my S&W Mod. 629 for in the woods in the Fall when the bears are eating everything in sight.

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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Homer
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #324040 - 30/01/19 02:51 PM

+1 on the above, regarding Daryl.

They are a great design and when well made, can be both exceedingly reliable, and accurate.
As long as I'm able to (legally or physically), I will not be without a 1911 pistol .......... or 3.

I remember, back in the early days of IPSC (1980's and 90's), we used to fire 100+ rounds of .45 ACP ammo, every Sunday.
We would do this most Sundays (45 to 50 times a year), so we were shooting 5,000 rounds of Major power factor handloads, every year.
Most of these where Standard Exersizes, which taught you how to shoot, and shoot both Accurately and Fast.

Almost forgot to say, thanks for sharing Ripp.

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: 3DogMike]
      #324043 - 30/01/19 03:32 PM

Quote:

+1 for Daryl’s resume as well.

As for me:
For out on the trail I have my stainless Colt Delta Elite 10mm; upgraded with Novak tritium sights, Wilson full length guide rod, 25lb spring and recoil buffer, and arched mainspring housing. Loaded with 220grain Buffalo Bore.

For my “Barbeque Gun”?........well it’s a Kimber Pro Carry .45ACP bone stock except for an arched mainspring housing. Federal Hydra Shock 230’s.

I just like the feel of the arched mainspring housing on a 1911 so both of them got the switch.
- Mike

EDIT: still have and carry my S&W Mod. 629 for in the woods in the Fall when the bears are eating everything in sight.




I'm with you in all you described above--picked up a Colt Gold Cup years ago--still sitting new in the box... also have a few Kimber's floating around.. for me, nothing quite fits like a 1911..

Contrary to what most of the LE is doing, our local Sheriff's department just went back to 1911 's in 45acp.. I do some other training with them so I get a chance to shoot them from time to time..very accurate and nice shooting

Like you, in the woods during all rush season by the bears, I normally strap on one of my S&W 44mag's--usually the titanium version....

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Daryl_S
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Ripp]
      #324161 - 02/02/19 03:39 PM

Just watched Iraqvet8888 video on long range pen for a .45ACP.
Now, I'm not sure why Erik didn't simply hold front sight over the back when shooting 100 and 200 yards with the pistol and thus keep the target above his sights.

He chose not to and this is why, I am sure, he had trouble hitting the 200yard board. He was attempting to hold over the board instead of holding on it and simply dropping his rear sight. Once practiced, it makes is a much easier method for longer range handgun and open fixed sight rifle shooting.

Elmer explained this 'style' back in the 60's, continuing into the 70's and indeed, this is how we shoot long range with open sighted handguns and our muzzleloaders. It works a treat. Try it.

He did just fine and could certainly keep a guy ducking at 200 with a handgun and 440 with the little .45ACP carbine(I like that one), once they got the wind and elevation figured out.
I found with my own .45 1911, just the height of the Wilson front sight blade over the rear, gave me a good 200yard zero with hardball ammo.

Hopefully this is not taken as a "negative" report. Eric did just fine and a lot better than many handgun shooters can show. My hat's off to him and wish him the best in his ongoing business.

His testing is out of common with most of it and valuable info for us. Like his vid, if you did, and subscribe as I have done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDnsGe0QwhA

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Daryl_S]
      #324166 - 02/02/19 08:00 PM

I'd love a Colt .45 ACP Gov't 1911. But not possible for me to get one.

The handgun I most often think of acquiring is the STI Trojan, in 9mm, a 1911 type handgun. Until the club's Trojan got shotout, it was my first choice, and I shot the best with it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Daryl_S]
      #324189 - 03/02/19 07:43 AM

Thanks for posting this Daryl--interesting watching him trying to connect...
also interesting the penetration at that distance considering the velocity..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (03/02/19 10:21 AM)


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416rigby
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: Ripp]
      #324231 - 04/02/19 07:23 AM

Excellent article. I carry a Kimber Compact CDP daily. The 1911 just feels right in my hands and the 45ACP has a fine track record of taking care of the bad guy for over 100 years.

--------------------
"Life's too short to hunt with an ugly gun"

U.S. Coast Guard, retired


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Daryl_S
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Re: The-case-for-the-1911... [Re: 416rigby]
      #324237 - 04/02/19 10:05 AM

I agree - the 1911 just feels RIGHT, athough many years ago
I did have the pleasure of shooting a couple Browning .45 Autos.
The shot very well, but still preferred my 1911.
not only that, but they work SOOO well on progressive loaders.
With a Dillon 450, I used to crank out close to 400 an hour and it didn't have an auto case or bullet feed.
I did get close to 600 once, but lost a 'scoop' of finger tip. The case mouths cut quickly if the fingers aren't out of the way when they hit the bottom of the die - that stung. LOL - I'd almost forgotten about that. Took a LONG time to heal.


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