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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Pugwash
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Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 96
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322467 - 14/12/18 07:11 PM

Definitely.Originally they were fitted in the days of the black powder rifles because the face of the actions would burn away and pit really badly.This gave you a chance to effectively replace the face of the action that the cartridge was against and make it servicable again.It also gave you a chance to correct any off centre striking issues.
I forgot about those as all the side by side shotguns I make have them and I take them for granted.The one thing is that the striker diameters are different for a rifle.Normally a shotgun is around .100" and a rifle is .060"-.070".You also have to watch the striker protrusion.I normally do the shotguns and rifles to around .055".This is more critical on a rifle and really shouldn't be more than .060".On a shotgun I've seen them at .080" and they've been fine.Also the rebound on a rifle is quite critical.If the rebound allow's the striker to dissapear back into the striker hole as soon as the cartridge is fired,then the primer will volcano back into the striker hole because of the pressure.You need to have the striker still protruding slightly so the primer has nowhere to go.

I could write a book on all these bit's that people have no idea about.The're all important,but unless you do these things all the time and see what happens to the firearms through all stages of production your very unlikely to know.

Edited by Pugwash (15/12/18 01:59 AM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3853
Loc: Nevada
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322475 - 15/12/18 02:32 AM

Quote:


I could write a book on all these bit's that people have no idea about.The're all important,but unless you do these things all the time and see what happens to the firearms through all stages of production your very unlikely to know.





There's a market for this.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: tinker]
      #322537 - 17/12/18 11:37 AM

Pugwash,

Put me down for a signed copy of that book please.

This is great information and things that we don't consider but they contribute to a properly functioning reliable double rifle.

Interesting your comments about bushed strikers and renovating a pitted breech face/correcting off centre pin strikes. Everyone concentrates on the easy replacement of broken strikers in the field and gas management aspects of bushed strikers but there are more to them than what we think.


Thanks again......make sure that book has plenty of photos.


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brennon272
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Reged: 28/01/15
Posts: 19
Loc: Georgia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322566 - 18/12/18 06:18 AM

Hello,

Reached out to double gun shop with no luck. Apparently the contacts he has at Arrieta are no longer affiliated and he has not received any communication from them directly. Other thoughts on sourcing an action? I am going to call the contact provided here in the UK for barrels soon.


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #322574 - 18/12/18 11:38 AM

Brennon,

Try Ian Clarke at ian@ICENG.CO.UK

This is Ian Clarke cnc machinist who worked for Purdey, Holland etc.


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brennon272
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Reged: 28/01/15
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Loc: Georgia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322610 - 19/12/18 03:20 PM

twobobbwana,

I attempted emailing Ian and the email address is invalid. Please let me know if it was a typo.

Thanks,
Brennon272


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Pugwash
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Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 96
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #322612 - 19/12/18 06:24 PM

I would try Perugini and Visini in Italy.They supply parts to the Italian trade.I would also get your tubes from Peter Hambrusch.You will have them in a few months of your order.
The English gun trade is very difficult to deal with and verging on a cottage industry.Ian Clark is a very Busy man dealing with the Rigby Rising bite parts.I know he would take your order but would hate to think that in a years time you still don't have all the parts to build your rifle and I never warned you.The same goes for Arthur Smith with the tube's.Unless Arthur has the tubes in stock,which is highly unlikely you could be waiting a very long time for your parts.Westley Richards use Hambrusch Tubes and they shoot very well.
It's all very well having stuff made in the UK.The finished Rifles are lovely but getting there is a nightmare.


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 88
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322628 - 20/12/18 06:09 AM

Brennon;

Mark gives you very good advise about P&V as well as the English suppliers to the gun trade.

I wish that I had the depth of knowledge that Mark has about actioning and building guns, wishing that I had met a renown gunmakers like him earlier in my life.

I am an amateur gun maker having worked in the engineering and construction trades, and now an old man of 77 years of age. Through the last 60 years in my interest in gunmaking I have learned many methods from people in the gun trade here and in UK.

I have recently "thrown in the towel" and sold my shop tools and equipment for building guns and rifles--vertical and horizontal milling machines, lathe capable of turning 30 inch long barrels, hand made gun tools, indexers and so forth. These are the tools that are required to make from scratch (ie 4140 round bar stock) double rifle or shotgun action and to turn rifle blanks to the appropriate size.

3 years back I decided that I would build a set of barrels for a double rifle and use the shoe lump method that is used by such gunmakers at Verney-Carron and Heym. My friend Jack Rowe (famed gunsmith and gunmaker)formerly of Birmingham, England was of the opinion that shoe lump barrels are stronger than chopper lump barrels, however I see no evidence that shoe lump are stronger--it is just counter intuitive to me.

However, I decided to build a set of shoe lump barrels here in the wilds of South Carolina. I thought that maybe someone here in the USA had built a set before; but I could not find anyone that had and I set out alone without any knowledge of how they were built. I happened upon a video of the shop of Verney-Carron and viewed how they brazed the shoe lump to the barrels, which was the only help I found in my 6 months of effort to machine a shoe lump and braze two barrels to this shoe lump and in the end have the center of the set of barrels at the breech end aligned with the center of the two firing pins of the action, when the barrels were closed and locked in place with the locking bolt of the action. In planning how the I could make certain that when the barrels were fitted to the action hinge pin, draw and action standing breech face and at the same time in direct center with the firing pins (strikers); I decided upon a method that called for a recess to be milled into the bottom of the breech end (area that fits down to the action water table) of the barrels.

I had to make numerous barrel shoe lump platforms before I was satisfied with the results.

I am writing all of this to you so that you will understand that there is method to build your own double rifle barrel set if you have the requisite machines and equipment, welding and brazing skills and gunmaking knowledge. You will need as a minimum a vertical mill built on the Bridgeport design with a long table and a metal lathe that will at least 1 3/8" hole through the head stock capable of turning barstock 30 inches long between centers--not that the barrels will be that long, but that you have room on the lathe bed to mount various tooling that will help you. Best of all is to also have a heavy (couple of tons in weight) horizontal mill that will be used to mill the simi-circle shapes into the length of the shoe lump. This task can be done with a vetical mill as I did it using a 1 inch ball nose milling cutter.

By now there may be someone else here in the USA that could help you whose has built a set of shoe lump barrels as I seem to recall that maybe Butch Searcy was stating that he could build a set. I do not know if he was going to build the shoe lump himself or if he was going to source the shoe lump from Germany or France.

You can get a general idea of how to do what I have described by viewing photos and comments of a long post of mine dated 26 March 2017 on this website. The post is titled "Building and regulating a DR with shoe lump barrels".

Edited by transvaal (20/12/18 06:15 AM)


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322636 - 20/12/18 11:46 AM

Brennon,

try
https://www.ian-clarke-engineering-solutions-limited.co.uk/our-services/


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322637 - 20/12/18 11:48 AM

Brennon,

Pugwash indicates that Ian Clarke is busy with the Rigby Rising bite parts.....so why not order a "kit of parts" for a Rigby Rising bite.....just while he's running those parts !!!?????


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brennon272
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Reged: 28/01/15
Posts: 19
Loc: Georgia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322639 - 20/12/18 01:50 PM

Pugwash,

I took your advice to heart and contacted Hambrusch. We will see what happens. I could be categorized as a Westley Richards fan haha, so what works for them will work for me. After all, this DR will be built in .318 Westley Richards! An added bonus is that the barrels will be chopperlump from Hambrusch! Granted my understanding of the jointing process is not to your or twobobbwana's, but it seems that joining chopperlumps may be easier than the shoelump method. I will also contact P&G about an action.

Thanks,
Brennon272
Quote:

I would try Perugini and Visini in Italy.They supply parts to the Italian trade.I would also get your tubes from Peter Hambrusch.You will have them in a few months of your order.
The English gun trade is very difficult to deal with and verging on a cottage industry.Ian Clark is a very Busy man dealing with the Rigby Rising bite parts.I know he would take your order but would hate to think that in a years time you still don't have all the parts to build your rifle and I never warned you.The same goes for Arthur Smith with the tube's.Unless Arthur has the tubes in stock,which is highly unlikely you could be waiting a very long time for your parts.Westley Richards use Hambrusch Tubes and they shoot very well.
It's all very well having stuff made in the UK.The finished Rifles are lovely but getting there is a nightmare.




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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1290
Loc: New Zealand Australia South A...
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322644 - 20/12/18 03:36 PM

I would just like to thank the Double rifle builders & experts for taking the time to post on here, I personally appreciate your posting very much !

Transvaal I really appreciate your shoe lump post, I don't have any talent but will need to make my own conversion soon (as I can't find any one in NZ to do it) and the shoe lump can keep more weight near the action than the Mono block as most shotgun barrels tapper down quickly from the breech face (plus my 8 bore action has no mono block, darn it) Thanks again !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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brennon272
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Reged: 28/01/15
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Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322645 - 20/12/18 03:36 PM

I did not think about this, but this is a fantastic idea! I currently have an email out to him. I would like for this to work out. A rising bite action would be a swell build, though it may spoil me! If he is already running the parts, perhaps I can save some $$$$$.

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Pugwash
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Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 96
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #322647 - 20/12/18 06:25 PM

Transvaal,Your Idea of the shoe lump is a very good one.It's a sound method of joining a pair of barrels together and a lot of the early double rifles had barrels of that construction.As you say its a matter of method.When you joint the barrels in,you let them in without the hook being cut completely away.Let them down on the Draw and then cut the hook properly using a cutter through the crosspin hole in the action while the two parts are together.Doing it this way mean's the Barrels and action are exactly where you need them to be when the hook is cut.If your cutter is a few thou smaller than your crosspin,then it make's for minimal fitting,and then black the barrels down the last few thou to get them exactly where you want them.

Brennon,I hope you get what you want.Ian will certainly have the rising bite parts but whether he'll sell you any is a different matter.I say that as if he sold them to other's then no-one would be buying them from Rigby's.Best wishes with it.You have a Mammoth task ahead.

Edited by Pugwash (20/12/18 06:29 PM)


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brennon272
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Reged: 28/01/15
Posts: 19
Loc: Georgia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322665 - 21/12/18 07:25 AM

I have definitely confirmed that he has a .375 scaled Purdey style self opener action on the shelf. What is the consensus on this type of action in comparison to the Rigby and H&H?

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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 88
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322667 - 21/12/18 08:49 AM

Dear Mark, AKA Pugwash;

It is most kind of you to describe the method that you use to joint Double Rifles barrels against the draw. I wish I had had this knowledge from you when I jointed mine; it would have saved me much time and grief.

I wish you and your family a very Happy Christmas (and boxing day) there where the winds of winter sweep across the Island.

P.S.

I enjoyed seeing the inside of your shop in the video of some years back--everything is just where you need it and easy to hand.

Kindest Regards;

Stephen Howell


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322668 - 21/12/18 12:16 PM

Brennon,

I'll challenge the statement regarding my "understanding" of jointing and the general double rifle building process. I'm "Well read" that's all. I need a lot more time on the files and lamp black before I can claim anything.

I enjoy picking the brains of those who have "been there and done it" it contributes to my understanding of the process and demystifies the "black art" processes involved in building double rifles.

I also enjoyed reading Ellis Brown's book and his practical approach to regulation of double rifles.

The shoe lump makes a lot of sense. Heym use it on their doubles. A talented Tasmanian gunsmith, who's name escapes me, posted photos of making shoe lump barrels and you'll find that interesting/educational.

I believe the benefit would be that you can machine your barrell profile to finished size, add the machined shoelump and fit the barrels thereby saving a lot of file time .. that you'd have to do with chopper lump or monobloc barrels.

Another interesting thing that I've read, possibly in Vic Venter's book (???), is that the old actioners reckon that a properly jointed double (with Purdey underlugs) could be fired without the locking bolt in place. Held shut with a piece of string. Please forgive me if I've misquoted anyone.

Vic venters, if you're reading this, it's about time you did another book.

Great topic. Please keep us updated on your project. I wish you every success.


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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322669 - 21/12/18 12:27 PM

Alex Beer is the gent of which I speak.

He posted the pictures of the process on this forum (?) some time ago.


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Pugwash
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Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 96
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322675 - 21/12/18 06:23 PM

One of the main advantages of the shoe lump is cost.You can use bolt action barrel's which are considerbly cheaper than chopperlumps and as Twobobbwana say's,you can profile them before assembly saving time.It's a good production method.
As to the use of the Purdey action.Purdey's use it and don't seem to have any problem's.The 375 action will be plenty strong enough for your 318 Westley and at least at the end of it you'll have a rifle that you know will work and will be unique.


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Pugwash
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Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 96
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322677 - 21/12/18 08:59 PM

Here you go Brennon.A bit of inspiration for you.
Although its a Bar Action rifle the huge Bolster will give it the strength it needs.

https://www.wrusedguns.com/view/rifles/j...-375-h-h-mag--/


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brennon272
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Reged: 28/01/15
Posts: 19
Loc: Georgia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322685 - 22/12/18 05:37 AM

Hello,
I got a price from P&V (pretty much the were not doing business price) of $30k+USD and a 18 month lead time. On the other hand, Ian has a .375 and .470 Purdey action along with a 450/400 Jeffrey boxlock action. Any commentary on these actions would be great. I feel that the .470 will be too big for my purposes. I am mainly concerned about the Purdey vs Jeffrey actions.



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twobobbwana
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Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #323338 - 16/01/19 11:50 AM

Brennon,

Personally I'd go with the sidelock Purdey action.....but there would be certainly nothing wrong with the Jeffrey.

While I appreciate that there's a hell of a lot of work saved by buying these partially machined actions......I do realise that there's a hell of a lot of work yet to be done.

Might I ask what Ian is charging for these action "kits"?? and what they include.


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