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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #303069 - 15/07/17 03:15 PM

7x54, SN JF 169 http://www.naturabuy.fr/Mas-fournier-7x54-fournier-item-3989433.html





















an interesting collector cartridge falls into the Mas 36 sporting rifle topic


http://www.naturabuy.fr/Peu-courant-8-60-ATE-1948-item-3332937.html

my question about this rifle when notice it the first time was were they got ammo in 10,75x68 than and it came to surface that the french military arsenal ATE was making sporting ammo in 10,75x68 in this years. don't look for the 8x60S model + ammo question but in the end in was the same problem.
and what have we here? voila a 8x60 cartridge made by ATE in 1948.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Igorrock
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #303076 - 16/07/17 12:21 AM

This bend safety lever looks quite interesting....

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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: Igorrock]
      #306983 - 29/10/17 08:53 PM

7x54 , SN is JF 606
http://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-item-4040204.html













7x54 barrel for sale http://www.naturabuy.fr/CANON-MAS-F-item-3949435.html









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (29/10/17 08:57 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #308394 - 28/11/17 05:19 AM

7x54, SN JF 522
http://www.naturabuy.fr/V96N-MAS-FOURNIER-item-4378276.html
a late J. Fournier rifle





















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #308637 - 03/12/17 05:35 PM

7x54 https://www.naturabuy.fr/vend-carabine-M...em-4234452.html





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #309080 - 17/12/17 04:32 AM

10,75x68, SN 771
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-10-75x58-item-4429167.html

























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #317846 - 07/07/18 06:01 AM

10,75x68, SN 622
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-item-4893671.html



















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #319369 - 27/08/18 04:59 AM

looks like the last service day of the MAS 36 action comes closer

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/08/22/france-in-search-of-new-sharpshooter-rifle/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #319395 - 28/08/18 05:15 AM

Lancaster, you do wonderful work putting these threads together on unusual rifles in different calibres, please keep up the good work!
Never thought that the MAS would fall into that category, it certainly is a surprise packet that can be made into a heavy hitter - A 10.75x68mm no less!
I wonder what rifle type you pick for the next thread?


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #319416 - 29/08/18 04:52 AM

7x54 Fournier made rifle
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-Calibre-7x54-fournier-sans-prix-reserve-item-4938650.html











--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #320008 - 24/09/18 01:56 AM

SN 1526 but in 7x54 mas founier so it must be an action in the white that was taken over after Mas stopped production and Fournier startet his own business
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-calibre-origine-7x54-item-5077636.html



















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #321761 - 21/11/18 08:54 AM

7x54, SN 1336
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-FOURNIER-Calibre-7x54-fournier-sans-prix-reserve-item-4938650.html






















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #322080 - 02/12/18 07:19 AM

original 7x54 Fournier got a new barrel in belgium for the 243 Win
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Mise-prix-1E-MAS-36-Fournier-7x54-item-5223161.html


















and a orignal barrel in 7x54
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Canon-carabine-Mas-Fournier-item-5230079.html







7x54 , SN 1502
https://www.naturabuy.fr/MAS-36-type-FOURNIER-7-54-OCCASION-item-5225169.html




















7x54, JF 708
https://www.jjb-collection.com/en/carabine-de-chasse-mas-fournier-xml-350_357_462-8927.html











--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #322087 - 02/12/18 09:43 AM

lancaster; do you know when the last 36-type sporter was built?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322109 - 02/12/18 06:48 PM

what I have learned till now is this project startet maybe in 1946/47. the idea behind this was to made a low budget hunting rifle for hunters who lost the rifle in WW 2 because of gun confiscation.
oldest date I have is 1947, last rifle build by Mas proably 1950/51.
it seems they made 2000 - 2500 actions with serial number in the white + stocks and offer the rifle in 7x57, 8x60S and 10,75x68. maybe barrels where also made in small lots before.
whenever they get an order for a rifle one action was taken and a barrel in the desired caliber was screwed in. the actions probably rest in a big box and they taken the one above not looking number 2 came after number 1 any time.
in 1950/51 french firms find out that MAS as a state owned arsenal was not allowed to made hunting guns for the market and so they made trouble about it.
MAS abandon the thing but the man in charge of this project Jean Fournier decided to work as a private master gunmaker now on his own. he leave the firm bought the rest of the parts still on stock and continue to offer hunting rifles now made in his own shop. probably the same time the 7x57 Mauser became again illegal for civil use like it was before but only in the mainland and not in the colonys.
Fournier solving the problem by create his own wildcat the 7x54 Fournier, a 7,5x54 necked down to 7 mm with 7x57 ballistic. the chamber reamer of the 7x54 was enough to rechamber the old 7x57 barrels he still had.
so you see older MAS made 7x57 rifles rechambered for the 7x54, rifles made from the original stock build by Fournier with the original MAS serial number. sometimes the actions had no caliber designation before or the old 7x57 designation was xed out or overwritten, changed into a "7x54".
such rifles have sometimes an extra "JF xxx" serial number and sometimes not.


https://www.pressreader.com/france/armes-de-chasse/20160101/282514362462591



after the old stock ended Fournier was buying MAS 36 parts from MAS and continued to made rifles now having only the 7x54 designation on the action and his own JF serial number.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #322111 - 02/12/18 09:09 PM

I take a look again and found this on a french site
http://www.tircollection.com/t26515-iden...unette-l810-apx














its a 8x60S with scope and leave the factory 0n 17.12.1955
maybe the work at MAS was going at least up to 1955. very low serial number but like I said they take what was on top of the box.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #322116 - 03/12/18 01:44 AM

lancaster, you are the man!!

Thank you very much!!

One of the things I always find interesting is the effect gun control laws have on the sporting market and on gun sales themselves. Going way back, some Austrian pocket pistols had ludicrously long barrels to meet the length requirement in the Empire, Mexican restrictions on pistol bore side made the .45 illegal and encouraged the .38 ACP and Super and of course fast forwarding to the USA today where we have all sorts of bizarre contraptions built to meet various state laws, and of course the very interesting straight-pull AR's that have been built for sale in England.

As for France, IIRC all military cartridges are STILL banned for sporting use in France? {Just like in some Latin American countries.}

I remember one of my uncles was a missionary to Ecuador and had his Savage 24 .30-30/12 {?} gauge confiscated by the government many years ago because of the ".30" cal of the rifle barrel. It was considered a "military" caliber, at least by the PM's that heisted it from him!

So here you are talking about a very fine hunting cartridge created to skirt around French laws.
Very interesting!

Your history is quite fascinating. Again, effects of war. I never really thought about HOW men who lost their sporting weapons obtained replacements. I always just thought the normal market forces applied and hunters bought as they could from the available commercial options.

I do have to say, there is something strange and yet very appealing to me about those MAS sporters. They just look like they would balance well in the hand. Very unique rifle, very interesting thread!! Again, a whole world of arms culture foreign to those of us stuck limping along with one language!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322124 - 03/12/18 06:31 AM

dont forget the old austro-hungarian pocket pistols had a very long barrel but the front sight was located in the middle of it so you could take a hacksaw at home and made a real pocket pistol of this in two minutes.
gunlaws to forbid special things are a challenge for human ingenuity and allmost ever the brain find a way.
if we look for the Mas 36 hunting rifle it was offered in 8x60S a cartridge invented by the german gun industry in the 1920s after the allied restrict the amount of military rifles in 8x57. so every privat person was forced to rechamber his mauser to the new 8x60.
this cartridge was a succes called sometimes 8x60 Magnum or 8x60 Bombe showing it was a potent round. anyway in the 1930s the ban falling in germany and people go back to the beloved 8x57.
but Belgium and France who were behind this ban get a new gun law that ban all military cartridges for civil use.
France just before WW 2 maybe in the moment when the leftist loser of the spanish civil war crossing the french boarder with a mishmash of militarys rifles. when the war ended the law was still in use there now to get the many military guns out of the population.
8x57 was still a great cartridge like the mauser 98 was a fine rifle so now the french and belgian were forced to rechamber the rilfes for the 8x60. this happen until some years now - maybe 4-5- when the law in france was changed. don't know the situation in belgium today.
now the french law only ban actuall military cartridges like 308, 223 rem or 7,62x39.

a history of gunlaws against special guns, cartridges or gun parts and how this story ended than would be good read.

8x60S is a rare caliber in the Mas 36 and many of this rifles were actually sold in the french occupation zone in germany including my own rifle that was sold by a gundealer in Freiburg near the french boarder.
crop protection was important than like it is now, maybe more because the times were much harder. so the french who confiscate any hunting rifle they got in the hands were forced in the end to sold the new rifles to the krauts.
never see a 7mm Mas rifle with such a german dealer stamp so it seems they were hardcore 8 mm lovers.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: lancaster]
      #322131 - 03/12/18 01:14 PM

Thanks lanc!

By the way, what nationality are you?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Louis
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322142 - 03/12/18 08:31 PM

I order to follow-up on Lancaster’s post, please find below some additional information; hunting rifles/shotguns are classified into various categories in France each of them subject to specific acquistion requirements, in short:
• Most hunting rifles/shotguns can be bought directly from a gunshop providing that you present a valid ID Card as well as a valid shooting/hunting licence. Until summer 2018 it was still possible to sell directly your rifles to another registered hunter/shooter but now the sale has to be endorsed by a registered gunshop; in addition to allowing the government more control on the people, this decision is also motivated by the fact that registered gunshop have now access to the government’s online list of people not allowed to detain weapons (criminal record, mental illness, etc.). Once the sale endorsed by the gunshop, information about new ownership is forwarded to the relevant French authorities (the equivalent of the US BATF).
• = all hunting rifles/shotguns are allowed providing that semi-automatic one cannot fire more than 3 rounds without reloading, total length is more than 80 cm and barrel is not shorter than 45 cm.
• Almost all hunting ammunition are now allowed, including 6,5x54 MS, .308, 30-06, 7x57, 8x57 JS, etc. (all former general issue ammunition in previous conflicts), which was not the case until a couple of years ago. Ammunition still subject to specific permission (filing more paperwork) are the 7,62 x 39 Russian; 5,56 x 45 (the military version of the hunting .223); 5,45 x 39 Russian; 12,7 x 99; and 14,5 x114 mainly.
• There is no limitation in France on the number of ‘standard’ hunting rifles/shotguns that an individual can own as well as on the number of associated ammunition that can be purchased.
• As above mentioned, these ‘standard’ hunting rifles/shotguns are subject to declaration of ownership to the local authorities i.e. you can buy first providing that you are entitled to buy and then the gunshop declares the ownership. Other categories of weapons such as hand-weapons, semi-automatic rifles with large magazine capacity, full-automatic ones , etc. are subject to authorization to buy first i.e. you file a request for buying a specific type of weapon/serial number and have to wait for permission first before taking it from the gunshop; the number of such weapons an individual can own is limited, as well as the number of ammunition one can purchase annually.
• Unless getting a specific permission delivered by the government, which is extremely difficult to get, it is not allowed to carry weapons either concealled or not in France, unless being on hunting grounds. When going to the shooting range or to the hunting grounds, your weapon(s) must be stored unloaded in such a way one won’t have direct access to it (most people load it in the car’s trunk/boot); ammunition must also be stored separately from the weapon.
• Individuals are not allowed to detain tanks, missile launchers, submarines, etc.

In short, some form of government control in France but not as stringent as in some other Western European countries. The French people, mainly those with rural background, are fighting hard to keep the right to hold weapons and to hunt, which they got from the French Revolution. There is a huge number of weapons (declared and probably undeclared also) circulating in France : hunting ones, military ones from Allied Forces parachuting during WW2, and since more recently most modern stock that poured into Western Europe following the Yugoslavia wars in the 90’s.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: Louis]
      #322143 - 03/12/18 09:58 PM

Louis, thank you for that very interesting summary! It seems just as you say, the laws are not nearly as severe as some other countries.

As to your last note, WW2 covert and Resistance/Maquis/Motstand operations have always been a topic of historical interest to me and from that study it seems to me that of the vast number of weapons that my Norwegian friend calls "weapons that fell from the sky" during WW2, there must still be quite a large number in circulation. Here in the USA following the restrictions placed on full automatic weapons, the government has offered periodic amnesties, that is, allowances for turning in full-auto weapons without threat of confiscation. We have not had one in many years, but with the deaths of almost all WW2 veterans now it seems they might want to do so again. A couple years ago a little old lady walked into a cop shop and produced a supposedly mint, brand new condition German Sturmgewehr 44 her recently deceased husband brought back from the war! Because of the weapon/condition, it made national news!

What happens if a weapon of that type is found in possession of an individual? Have there been amnesties or other opportunities for turning in weapons without risk of criminal prosecution?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Louis
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322144 - 03/12/18 10:49 PM

9,3x57
If an individual finds an 'undeclared' family weapon in France it must report it to the authorities; depending on which type/category of weapon it is, the person may be able to keep it (e.g. a hunting rifle or derelict general issue rifle), or file for permission to detain it personally (e.g. a US Carbine) or turn it over (e.g. a Panzer Faust). Permissions are never to be taken for granted and are delivered on a case-by-case basis.
Failing to declare a 'family' weapon is considered a crime and subject to prosecution; as in the US, the French Govt. offers regular amnesties, probably because people are still slow to declare their undeclared weapons.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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9.3x57
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Re: french connection [Re: Louis]
      #322157 - 04/12/18 02:47 AM

Thanks Louis! Very interesting. Yes, sounds like a similar process, tho here, as far as I know, there is no LEGAL mechanism to allow for a turning in of a FULL AUTO weapon or what are called "destructive devices" or "any other weapon" {grenades, Panzerfäuste, etc} outside of an amnesty, so one takes a risk doing so. Thus, I suspect some weapons, if the owner knows the law, are simply kept, hidden or privately destroyed.

I can only imagine the rural areas must have an abundance of "hardware" still floating about there in France. One thing many are unaware of is of the 5 million or so US M1 Carbines manufactured, a substantial number were dropped to Resistance and partizan forces in Western Europe, East Asia and the South Pacific. Frederick Spencer Chapman references the latter in Malaya in his classic "The Jungle is Neutral" and also states that few were turned in in spite of the call to do so at the end of the war due to their handiness and usefulness in pig hunting.

Regarding that and the Francophone regions, youtube is full of modern videos of hunters in Laos and Viet Nam and one of the recurrent rifles present is the good'ole US M1 Carbine, certainly rifles from the US/VN war era but very possibly including those left behind by the French and maybe even a few from WW2 days as well!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Louis
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Re: french connection [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322160 - 04/12/18 04:35 AM

Noted 9,3x57, thank your for your interesting input.
Lancaster, sorry for having hijacked your thread; it was only for a short while and I won't do it again!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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lancaster
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Re: french connection [Re: Louis]
      #322225 - 06/12/18 07:20 AM

you make me feel ashamed Louis

my thread is your thread and you can allways do here what you want to do

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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