Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Questions On Building Double Rifles

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

Pages: 1
brennon272
.224 member


Reged: 28/01/15
Posts: 13
Loc: Georgia
Questions On Building Double Rifles
      #310775 - 21/01/18 05:47 PM

Hello,

I have read and researched fairly extensively the process of building double rifles and am posting a few questions that I have. I am not necessarily interested in converting a shotgun into a double rifle, I am more entertained by machining my own action as I have access to a full machine shop with manual and cnc equipment as well as plenty of hand tools.

1. How should I go about getting proper dimensions for the action? I have been unable to find any blueprints, at this point I am assuming that I will have to buy a shotgun anyway just for the measurements. If this is true, what bores should I be looking for? I know some makers have as many as 8 different action sizes for their doubles. The only calibers I would be particularly interested in would be "obsolete" calibers like 318 Westley Richards or perhaps a 400 Purdey, but nothing larger than a 425 Westley Richards.

2. If I should have to use a shotgun action for dimensions, what brands should I look for? Ideally I would like a double rifle with an H&H type 7 pin lock, intercepting sears, and an Anson & Deeley type forend iron.

3. What metal(s) should I seek for the receiver, locks, forend iron, etc? I have seen claims from some makers that their receivers are "Specially designed for double rifles," I am assuming that this refers to intercepting sears, bushed firing pins, and reinforcement added on the sides of the receiver. If I am wrong or there is more to this statement please correct me on this.

4. I plan on using chopper lump barrels that I will join myself. I have only been able to find two providers of chopper lump blanks: Hambrusch/Ferlach in Austria and microfinish gun barrels ltd. If anyone knows of others it would be of great benefit to have as many sources as possible when trying to source blanks for these "obsolete" calibers.

5. I have Ellis Brown's building double rifles on shotgun action en route to me, any recommendations for other books on building doubles would be great, especially on the process of regulation.

I would like anyone who has any additional comments or tips who have undertaken such a challenge to please share them, good or bad

Thanks,
Brennon272


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 254
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #310869 - 23/01/18 11:46 AM

brennon272,

1 & 2. Perhaps purchase a AYA #2 in 12 guage. This will give you dimensions of a Holland sidelock bar action in 12guage. That and a 20guage will give you dimensions and scaling. I would also look at the back action Holland as it is considered stronger than the bar action.

3. I'm no engineer but Dallas' book on McKay Brown mentions EN series steel for action bodies and it is able to be case hardened.

4. I think Border barrels does chopper lump barrels.

5. I would recommend Guncraft by Vic Venters. This, and Ellis' book, will give you details on jointing. Some of Vic's Shooting Sportsman articles will give you some details of hinge pin replacement and jointing.

My preference would be scaled to size Holland and Holland back action sidelocks with reinforced bodies, Southgate ejectors, extended topstrap and trigger guard..............in fact a Holland and Holland Royal "clone".

"Makers to the Trade" may also have components in various stage of completion from which you could get your dimensions from.

CNC digitizing an AYA #2 would give you a huge head start. Then you can scale the images for your different calibres. It is apparent that finishing is where the real work is and this is what makes the difference between an assembled "kit of parts" and a "bespoke" double rifle.

Just my thoughts. And remember free advice is usually worth everything you gave for it!

Good luck. Please keep us informed of your progress.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18247
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #310872 - 23/01/18 11:56 AM

Brennon272 - you are in luck - check out this thread.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=258838&an=0&page=0#Post258838

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Shotgunlover
.224 member


Reged: 24/08/13
Posts: 42
Loc: Greece
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Daryl_S]
      #311049 - 25/01/18 09:23 PM

Have a look at this article for ideas re 3D prototyping used in double shotgun design. The action showed is entirely 3D printed in ABS plastic.

It is not wholly appliccable to sidelocks but it might contain some useful bits.

http://oplognosia.com/?p=7590

--------------------
Shotgunlover


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 254
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Shotgunlover]
      #316054 - 04/05/18 10:42 AM

Brennon272,

Anything further on this ???


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MotelAlpha
.275 member


Reged: 04/02/13
Posts: 54
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #316809 - 26/05/18 12:10 AM

If I were you, I would spend a year with DeweyVicknair....see his lates posting

--------------------
Pro Deo et Pro Patria


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18247
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #316813 - 26/05/18 02:48 AM

Quote:

If I were you, I would spend a year with DeweyVicknair....see his lates posting




That is the link I posted.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MotelAlpha
.275 member


Reged: 04/02/13
Posts: 54
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Daryl_S]
      #316816 - 26/05/18 03:06 AM

So it is, I was suggesting he trot on up tp PA.

--------------------
Pro Deo et Pro Patria


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Aaron_Little
.275 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 84
Loc: Newark, TX
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: MotelAlpha]
      #318951 - 10/08/18 02:10 AM

The best way is to have an idea on your intended overall weight.

Start with the barrels and work back. I think you’ll find for smaller calibers that a wall thickness around the chamber of .200”-.225” tapering down to .100” wall thickness at mid barrels adequate. The bigger calibers need more wall thickness at the breach but still quickly taper down to .100”-.125”.

Barrels need to be roughly half the gun weight.

You’ll also notice double rifle actions have a wider action bar than shotguns. That’s why the fences on double rifles aren’t as pronounced as shotgun actions. This is done for strength and to get more weight between the hands.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 254
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Aaron_Little]
      #320902 - 23/10/18 11:47 AM

Aaron,

that's interesting information.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
brennon272
.224 member


Reged: 28/01/15
Posts: 13
Loc: Georgia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #321800 - 23/11/18 05:59 AM

All interesting points and advice that has definitely been well received. Up unto this point I have still been reading as much as possible on the subject and learning how to engrave which is quite the time consuming but rewarding ordeal! I am still searching for a source for chopperlump barrels.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pugwash
.275 member


Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 84
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #321811 - 23/11/18 11:47 PM

If you want Chopperlump Rifle Barrel's from the UK try Arthur Smith at Arm's Restoration Services in Colchester,Essex.He make's the rifle tube's for most of the best quality double rifles from the UK.He is extremely knowledgeable and if anybody can help with obsolete calibre's it would be him.
Chris Kay from Microfinish doesn't make rifle tube's,only shotgun.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
brennon272
.224 member


Reged: 28/01/15
Posts: 13
Loc: Georgia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #321825 - 24/11/18 12:53 PM

Quote:

If you want Chopperlump Rifle Barrel's from the UK try Arthur Smith at Arm's Restoration Services in Colchester,Essex.He make's the rifle tube's for most of the best quality double rifles from the UK.He is extremely knowledgeable and if anybody can help with obsolete calibre's it would be him.
Chris Kay from Microfinish doesn't make rifle tube's,only shotgun.




Pugwash,

Thanks! Makes sense as to Microfinish, I looked everywhere and could not find anything indicating they made rifle barrels! In addition, today I just purchased this!



Its a factory (in the white) AyA Sidelock! I believe it is a H&H seven pin type. I also purchased these parts that are all en route to me:

1. Ejector forend iron - bare
2. Cocking lifter - 1
3. Left sidelock hammer - 1
4. Right sidelock hammer - 1
5. Ejector trippers - left and right
6. Striker disks .430 - 2
7. Hammer spring - 1
8. Sidelock firing pin - 2

Edited by brennon272 (25/11/18 03:46 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 254
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: brennon272]
      #321946 - 28/11/18 11:40 AM

brennon272,

couldn't see your photo.

Did you purchase this from the AYA factory ???


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pugwash
.275 member


Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 84
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #321989 - 29/11/18 06:58 AM

Hi Brennon272,

For starter's this is a Bar action lock rather than a Back action lock which would be far more ideal for an H&H rifle build.If you go down this route you have a mighty task ahead of you.Even if you complete an action,you still have the stocking and finishing to complete.Once this is done you'll have a pair of rifle barrels on a shotgun action.
However many time's people do these type of conversion's/build's I will never be convinced that the action's hold up like a rifle action will.That's the reason rifle action's were designed to be more robust than a shotgun action.
You would probably be better to go to a company like Piotti or another similar Gun and Rifle maker,and see if you can purchase an action and part's to build a proper rifle.You will save yourself a lot of grief and at the end you will have a proper Double rifle rather than a compromise.
I know that a few people here will tell me I'm talking a load of rubbish but after 40 years of making Guns and Rifle's I think I might have gained a bit of experience in these matter's.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
transvaal
.275 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 84
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322004 - 30/11/18 03:24 AM

Pugwash is giving you information that is entirely correct.

Further, if you desire to build a proper double rifle in a large caliber, his suggestion to buy a sidelock back action from a gunmaker is straight on.

Having built some double rifles myself, I know what I would do to attempt to find such an DR action from a gunmaker. Arrieta in Spain ceased gun and rifle production; and they made some of the best Spanish double rifles. There must be some double rifle actions in their old shop. John Boyd of Quality Arms Houston, Texas has been a dealer for Arrieta for about 40 years and knows the owners of Arrieta well. What I would do if I were in your place is to telephone John Boyd and ask him to get in touch with his Arrieta friends in Spain and ask them if they have what you need and are willing to sell it and ship it to John Boyd. They likely even have barrel sets. Of course, John Boyd should be paid a fee for doing this.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 254
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322130 - 03/12/18 11:43 AM

Pugwash & Transvaal,

What do you see are the basic differences between a shotgun and a rifle action (sidelock back action) ?

Is it the length, depth and width of the watertable that differ between the two ??

If these dimensions, for the double rifle action build, wouldn't this sidelock be suitable ??


I understand that the Back action is more suitable than the Bar action as it leaves more material in the water table/elbow area of the action - where it wants to flex. But many good double rifles are also built on Bar actions.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pugwash
.275 member


Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 84
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322168 - 04/12/18 07:18 AM

Hi Twobobbwana,

I think for the most part you will find the wall from the lump slots to the cocking limb slot's to be thicker on a rifle than a shotgun.From the face to the back of the action has more meat and then some are bolstered aswell so the strength is added from the face to the flats.The rifle action's are thicker everywhere which also has the added advantage of adding weight.If the action's to light it will knock itself apart aswell as knock your teeth out when you shoot it.The back action locks mean you don't need to cut the outer sides of the action away for the lock bed's,again adding strength.The crosspin's tend to be slightly larger diameter and the gap between the lumps is slightly more so that the draw has the strength in it to hold the barrels down.
It's really important that the rifle is carefully jointed as if it bear's only on the crosspin and not on the draw,the action will stretch leaving the barrels off the face.On a shotgun you can get away with not having a hard bearing as the shock through the action is nowhere as damaging as a rifle.In saying that it's still important that the bearing is thereabouts.Some better quality rifle's have detachable draws which allow's the draw bearing to be restored after a rejoint.
I would suggest that anybody interested in these things to compare photo's from the internet as there's plenty out there.Even without specific sizes,comparing photo's shows the obvious differences between the two.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
transvaal
.275 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 84
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: Pugwash]
      #322197 - 05/12/18 10:07 AM

Mark (aka Pugwash);

Importantly, you covered the need for the fitting of the draw to the "circle" (both more often now straights and not curves on best quality DR's) to be absolute. I suspect less than 1% of double rifle shooters know the importance of this fact--or even know where to find the draw.

I remember my late friend, Jack Rowe, speaking to me of your great skill and knowledge of the trade.

Kindest Regards, and stay warm in your shed.

Steve


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
twobobbwana
.333 member


Reged: 25/11/11
Posts: 254
Loc: Queensland, Australia
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: transvaal]
      #322201 - 05/12/18 12:42 PM

Pugwash,

Thanks for your input. I find this fascinating.

What you say about leaving more meat in the action for weight etc makes any amount of sense...."Weight between the hands" is where it's at for handling. I've read about the greater diameter of hinge pins before and have seen posted photos (possibly by Dewey Vicknair) of the greater action width/thickness and am sure this adds to the longevity of the rifle. I have seen pictures in Ellis Brown's book showing the differences in action thickness with double rifle actions.

Looking at the amount of material removed from a boxlock action for hammers, cocking levers/rods etc I cannot understand how people believe them to be stronger than a sidelock.

Given that there have been many successful double rifles built on shotgun actions one wonders how much material has to be in these areas while still resulting in a durable double rifle. I do understand that there have been failures in making double rifles on shotgun actions...……….as there has been in any endeavour.

"A gun is only as good as the quality of it's jointing" is another comment I've read. Makes any amount of sense as the better quality of the bearing/jointing the more stresses are shared and the less likely it will "kick itself to pieces".

Very interesting your comment about more material between the lumps. I had not considered it and this may well be the origin of guns being "long in the bar" being durable/strong.

Vick Venters wrote an article about "Jointing and the Circle" (???) and he mentioned the details re hinge pin diameter and the critical nature of jointing double rifles. If I recall correctly he mentioned that the rear draw (rear lug bearing surface) should come into play to take the pressure off the hinge pin so that it doesn't try to push the hinge pin out of the gun. I believe the comment/implication was that the rear draw had to come into play but not cause the rifle to be hard to open/close. I apologise to Vic if I'm misquoting him.


The replaceable rear draw insert makes wonderful sense as it allows the rifle to be rejointed and maintain bearing on the rear draw (if this is the correct terminology)...………..something you couldn't do with a shotgun/rifle that does not have this facility. Meaning that changing the hinge pin, for a larger diameter one, in effect pushes the rear draw/bearing out of contact and the replaceable draw brings the draw back into contact with the front face of the rear lug.

Please don't take these comments as arguing. I don't pretend to be an authority …...pretty much on anything...…...I'm just kicking these thoughts around.

One again thank you for sharing your knowledge Pugwash.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bouldersmith
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 474
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: twobobbwana]
      #322274 - 08/12/18 12:07 AM

Mark,
Thoughts on third bites? A requirement on a medium bore break action gun? I see some but not many vintage guns with out them. I am considering building a break action single shot rifle and your opinion is valued. Best regards,
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pugwash
.275 member


Reged: 24/03/07
Posts: 84
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Questions On Building Double Rifles [Re: bouldersmith]
      #322332 - 10/12/18 07:20 PM

Hi Twobobbwana,

I think you've got a pretty good grasp of the subject.I know what you mean about the Boxlock action's.These tend to be quite thick through the flats and also from the lumpslot's to the tumbler slot's.However you look at these thing's the main areas seem to be aformentioned ones and the thickness through the root or radius between the flats and the face.Most Boxlock rifle's also had some kind of third bite or at least a doll's head.This would have helped considerably keep the thing together.

To answer Steve's question on third bite's,I will give you my opinion which again is going to be up for debate,but is through years of observation what I consider to be correct.The dolls head extension is a better third grip than anything else except for a dolls head with a third bite.It stops the face from moving backwards and with a third bite will tend to stop the barrels lifting when fired.The hidden third bites such as with an H&H or Purdey are next to useless.The main aim is to stop the face from moving backwards which neither of these do.The likes of the crossbolt type third bites are ok and definitely work but again in my opinion aren't as good as the dolls head.Some of the early Westley Richards Rifles didn't have an underbolt,just a dolls head with an third bite.These held together well because when properly jointed the Draw will tend to pull the barrel's downwards into the action when fired rather than the barrels pushing off the action.

Steve,you rifle's going to be a bit difficult to fit a Dolls Head to so if you feel the need to fit a third bite I think it will have to be a crossbolt.You see on the continental rifles that they have them either on one or both sides of the chamber.I know you will have the experience to decide which is best for you and most suitable for the caliber you choose.However well made these Breech opening rifles are,they will never as accurate as a Bolt action or Falling Block rifle.It's just the nature of the design and you will never stop the flexing as hard as you try to eliminate it.

Mark


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
1 registered and 18 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl, 4seventy 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 2342

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved