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Ripp
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Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer
      #321847 - 26/11/18 03:02 AM

https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/can-264-winchester-magnum-rise-from-dead/

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tinker
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321855 - 26/11/18 07:12 AM

I am building one currently.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: tinker]
      #321860 - 26/11/18 09:34 AM

Quote:

I am building one currently.




Tell me more?? barrel, action, etc???

I have a special run model in a Rem 700..have used it on pronghorn, mule deer and several elk..hammers them all..mild recoil..flat shooting --whats not to love??

And with all the hoopla going on about the 6.5PRC--the "old" 264 W is still about 150fps faster..

Its too bad it got the bad press years ago.. actually an awesome cartridge..

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tinker
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321866 - 26/11/18 02:14 PM

Ripp I've been gathering scraps. There was an orphaned 7.7 twist barrel, a nice light sporting stock project that someone abandoned years ago, and I had a Model 70 action that needed help.

With a new lathe in my shop I used this as an opportunity to work the bugs out of the new machine installation. Made mandrels for the bolt and action on the way to truing the action, profiled the barrel to fit the existing channel in the wood while setting on 26" length.

More work to do still, but I've shot it a bit along the way.
Seems like it will be good with long bullets and my stockpile of US869 powder. I'm thinking sub-atomic loads with the heavy bullets and it'll be a hammer that lasts.

I have been fiddling with Alkanet Root in boiled linseed oil for the stock.
It's going to look good!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Wayne59
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: tinker]
      #321877 - 26/11/18 11:58 PM

I am not a fan of belted magnums although if not for that it sounds good. Besides I like my 6.5 Creedmoor just fine.Tinker I would be interested in your stock treatment when you get don tinkering (no pun intended).

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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: tinker]
      #321879 - 27/11/18 12:47 AM

Quote:

Ripp I've been gathering scraps. There was an orphaned 7.7 twist barrel, a nice light sporting stock project that someone abandoned years ago, and I had a Model 70 action that needed help.

With a new lathe in my shop I used this as an opportunity to work the bugs out of the new machine installation. Made mandrels for the bolt and action on the way to truing the action, profiled the barrel to fit the existing channel in the wood while setting on 26" length.

More work to do still, but I've shot it a bit along the way.
Seems like it will be good with long bullets and my stockpile of US869 powder. I'm thinking sub-atomic loads with the heavy bullets and it'll be a hammer that lasts.

I have been fiddling with Alkanet Root in boiled linseed oil for the stock.
It's going to look good!




Wow--sounds like quite a fun little project you have going on...please post pics when this project gets completed, would really like to see it..

Agree with the heavy bullets..think that is the ticket, that, and NOT taking it varmint hunting..
read an article recently stating that many were taking out the .264 to use on P-dogs..ruining the barrels..whatever..as I have always said, they still make barrels the last I checked.. under normal hunting conditions the barrel on a .264 Win Mag will last your lifetime and part of your children's lifetime as well..

---

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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Wayne59]
      #321880 - 27/11/18 12:54 AM

Quote:

I am not a fan of belted magnums although if not for that it sounds good. Besides I like my 6.5 Creedmoor just fine.Tinker I would be interested in your stock treatment when you get don tinkering (no pun intended).




Nothing wrong with a 6.5 Creedmoor, have one myself..however for hunting bigger game, I like the additional punch of the Win Mag.. substantial compared to the CM.. 4-500fps difference..that is huge when you start stretching it out a bit..as to elevation and wind deflection, let along ft/lbs of energy on contact.. particularly with elk..

As to the belt, didn't seem to bother the US Military while using the 300W Mag for decades as a sniper round.. I have never had an issue with either..have had numerous belted mags that shoot just as good as any of the non-belted rounds..but, each to their own..whatever makes you shoot more is what you should use... IMHO..have a great day..

Ripp


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321889 - 27/11/18 06:55 AM

I have always wanted a 264 WM on a Model 70 which with today's powders and projectiles makes a for a great cartridge. It is now where it should have been then as far as performance goes.

Even if you were to only get 1500 rounds out of a barrel under normal hunting conditions that wouldn't matter a shit, it would last a lifetime.

I have a several cartridges with belts and I have never found that it made any difference to feeding or function or reloading. If the guns is set up correctly they work perfectly and I get many re-loads from my brass.

Tinker, looking forward to seeing your rifle especially the stock finish.


Matt.

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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #321896 - 27/11/18 08:55 AM

Quote:

I have always wanted a 264 WM on a Model 70 which with today's powders and projectiles makes a for a great cartridge. It is now where it should have been then as far as performance goes.

Even if you were to only get 1500 rounds out of a barrel under normal hunting conditions that wouldn't matter a shit, it would last a lifetime.

I have a several cartridges with belts and I have never found that it made any difference to feeding or function or reloading. If the guns is set up correctly they work perfectly and I get many re-loads from my brass.

Tinker, looking forward to seeing your rifle especially the stock finish.


Matt.




Well, YOUR dreams can come true..see below, Winchester is once again producing a 264W Mag in the model 70, with controlled round feed...

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/r...uper-grade.html

As to rounds, totally agree, it wont matter jack, with the better metals of today, better powders and bullets, would be a minimum of 2000 rounds... I had over 1200 in my 300RUM --and had that thing heated more than once..burning up way more powder -had it borescoped..NO issues at that point..

Think as the article stated, those less than ideal conditions of shooting rapid succession shots on varmints will ruin any barrel.. The 264W got a bad rap in the onset with many, now today without researching actual facts, some feel there's an issue where there isn't one.. IMHO of course..

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Wayne59
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321915 - 28/11/18 12:20 AM

I have owned three belted magnum cartridge guns. Two 300 Weatherby and one 270 Weatherby magnums. One was a Winchester chambered in 300 Weatherby. On all my rifles I had to buy new brass after about three reloadings or buy a special die for pushing the belt back. Back then new brass was expensive and if I remember correctly the die was custom (really expensive). The jist of the article was about weather it could make a come back Not weather it was a good cartridge.

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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Wayne59]
      #321916 - 28/11/18 12:53 AM

Quote:

I have owned three belted magnum cartridge guns. Two 300 Weatherby and one 270 Weatherby magnums. One was a Winchester chambered in 300 Weatherby. On all my rifles I had to buy new brass after about three reloadings or buy a special die for pushing the belt back. Back then new brass was expensive and if I remember correctly the die was custom (really expensive). The jist of the article was about weather it could make a come back Not weather it was a good cartridge.




Don't think it will make a come back if its not..that is what I got from the article..

BTW, it's whether --not weather like the local forecast..

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tinker
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321918 - 28/11/18 01:04 AM

On belted cases - I've handloaded for numerous belted mags, often to exterme performance. I have always been able to get along fine with this type of case.
The belt is a non issue for me, always has been.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: tinker]
      #321920 - 28/11/18 01:28 AM

Quote:

On belted cases - I've handloaded for numerous belted mags, often to exterme performance. I have always been able to get along fine with this type of case.
The belt is a non issue foe me, always has been.




Same for me--I shot the 300Win Mag almost exclusively for close to 20 years..reloaded all my ammo..never had any issues, ever...

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DarylS
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321928 - 28/11/18 05:27 AM

Same here - been using belted cases since 1968. I don't like them, but have not had the case head separation problems some people get by not adjusting their dies properly.

The old Lyman loading book, #45 IIRC, advised hand loaders to adjust the sizing die until the shell holder bumped it, for full length sizing. I did exactly that, for my 6.5 Rem mag. Ken Waters wrote the ctg. up in Handloader magazine & stated the 6.5 Rem. Mag. was hard on brass & would cause incipient case head separations in as few as 3 handloads. When it happened to me, I bought that magazine from George Wood's Guns, 100 Hamilton Road in London Ontario. I read it how it was happening to Ken and I figured that since the fired brass fit easily back into the chamber, why size more than just the neck.

I adjusted the die so only the full length of neck was being sized but the shoulder was not being touched. That stopped the case head separations.

If the chamber of one's rifle is overly long - it happens, and the die is a bit short in the body - it happens, you have the potential to introduce excessive headspace in the reloaded ammo - it happens. What then occurs, is that after 2 to 4 shots with that case, it separates just above the belt at the thinning of the web.

Rifle Mfgr'z have minimum and maximum tolerances. Die mfgr's also have minimum and maximum tolerances. Get a mis-match and problems can happen.

Saturday evening I was talking to a friend from Vermillion Alberta who asked about this very problem. Solving it is as easy as die adjustment. When I get the length right, I put a flat piece of steel between the shell holder and the bottom of the die to set the die perfectly perpendicular to the press' ram- then lock the lock-ring. If you don't, the slop in the threads of the die and press can cause misalignment & result in slightly out of alignment brass.

By 1980, articles in magazines as well as loading manuals told handloaders to adjust the dies so the shoulder was just barely touched, or just until the fired and re-sized cases would chamber nicely as to not overwork the brass or introduce excessive headspace.

This, in itself will help prevent case head separations.

Case head separations have only one cause - excessive headspace. It can be the chamber or it can be the brass, sometimes it's both - or any combination of those two.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321934 - 28/11/18 08:05 AM

Thanks Ripp, good to see them bringing back the 264WM along with the 6.5 Creedmore, I might have to go and have a look at one.

Matt.

--------------------
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SharpsNitro
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321938 - 28/11/18 09:21 AM

Last year I had a 264WM barrel made for my DTA Covert. I’ve been shooting the 6.5SAUM for several years now and love the rounds performance but don’t like the case prep or feeding issues. I figured the WM would be worth a try, the cases feed great and no real brass prep.

The only issue I’ve run into is the new Winchester brass seems to be too short in the shoulder. I get around 0.028” extension on the shoulder after the first firing. Barrel maker checked the chamber and says it’s good, he also says this isn’t uncommon with Winchester belted brass. Anyone run into this before? I’m going to be doing a false shoulder on new brass from now on.

Here are a couple of pictures of the rifle (wearing the 16” 308 barrel, I recently Cerakoted it. Turned out pretty well.





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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #321939 - 28/11/18 09:40 AM

Quote:

Last year I had a 264WM barrel made for my DTA Covert. I’ve been shooting the 6.5SAUM for several years now and love the rounds performance but don’t like the case prep or feeding issues. I figured the WM would be worth a try, the cases feed great and no real brass prep.

The only issue I’ve run into is the new Winchester brass seems to be too short in the shoulder. I get around 0.028” extension on the shoulder after the first firing. Barrel maker checked the chamber and says it’s good, he also says this isn’t uncommon with Winchester belted brass. Anyone run into this before? I’m going to be doing a false shoulder on new brass from now on.

Here are a couple of pictures of the rifle (wearing the 16” 308 barrel, I recently Cerakoted it. Turned out pretty well.








I have not run into this..but have you tried other brass than Winchester..I have been using a lot of Nosler brass for my reloading..its expensive..but really nice brass compared to Rem or Win I have found..

BTW--THAT is a cool looking rifle..

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tinker
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321940 - 28/11/18 09:59 AM

The only brass I've used for my 264 has been formed 7mag brass.

I also have used Nosler in other calibers and so far I like it.
I plan to buy Nosler brass for my 264 rifle.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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SharpsNitro
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: tinker]
      #321942 - 28/11/18 11:09 AM

Thanks. I’ve only tried Nosler 7SAUM brass for the 6.5 and it was a lot softer than Norma stuff. I am hoping the Winchester brass works as I’ve had good luck with their 243 brass.

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DarylS
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #321945 - 28/11/18 11:29 AM

I've used Nosler brass in .243 and 9.3x62. It is amazing brass - pricey, but all the work is done.

They are exceptionally close in weight as well.

I find the Nosler brass in .243 is almost identical to weight to the Hornady brass I purchased in 100 round plastic bag/containers.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tophet1
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: DarylS]
      #321957 - 28/11/18 07:50 PM

Love the 264 WM with 140 Woodleighs. Real Hammer of Thor stuff but the Rem 700 I had was a barrel burner and too short.
Will probably rebarrel my Howa .300 Weatherby to that next year with a 26'+ bull barrel as a truck gun.


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Louis
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: tophet1]
      #321959 - 28/11/18 08:51 PM

The .264 Winchester Magnum would rise from dead only if ammunition manufacturers could see a profit to make from this resurection, then invest in advertising and in R&D, and manage to convince the big bulk of average hunters (the ones who they make money from) that the .264 is the new rage. This failing to happen, then this calibre should only be kept alive thanks to hand-loaders.

The .264 is an awesome cartridge that I briefly used ages ago, which probably fell in disgrace because ammunition makers flooded the market with new products that were presented as being the new panacea; then, as the cartridge didn’t sold as much, major rifle makers stopped chambering new rifles in this caliber, and the .264 started spiralling down. This is a well known scenario and an almost similar fate occurred to the European 6,5x68.

When the 6,5x68 was created in the late 30’s, it was a really innovative calibre with much better performances in terms of initial velocity and flat trajectory than most existing European calibers, out of which the 7x64. The 6,5x68 was then, and probably until the 70’s or 80’s one of the European mountain calibres of reference.

Let’s now refer to the 2018-2019 RWS catalog in order to see where the 6,5x68 currently stands in comparison to the European 7x64:

• 6,5x68 / Bullet: KS 8,2 grams - 127 grains/ MRD: 197 m – 215 y/ V0: 950 m/s – 3116 f/s/ E0: 3700 J/ Drop at 250 m: -8 cm - -3,15 in/ Price: Euro 110
• 7x64/ Bullet: KS 8 grams - 123 grains/ MRD: 195 m – 213 y/ V0: 965 m/s – 3166 f/s/ E0: 3725 J/ Drop at 250 m: -9,1 cm - -3,6 in/ Price: Euro 70

Over the last decades RWS has kept the 6,5x68 – a niche calibre, alive (only two choices of bullets) while they have invested a lot in R&D for their best sellers. As shown in the above table, the 7x64 performances (and choice of bullets, 9) are now on par with the 6,5x68 when using an almost similar bullet. Unless for the pride of shooting a 6,5x68 there is not anymore rationale for not using a 7x64 / 7x65 R for mountain hunting, which I personnally do; ammunition cost 50% to 70% less and rifle will be much lighter (because of the magnum profile of the 6,5x68 barrel) to carry during long mountain days.


Trends being now global it is not surprising to see that the situation is similar on the far side of the Atlantic Ocean and that the comparison 6,5x68 / 7x64 also applies to the .264 Winchester Magnum / .270 Winchester, should we rely on data provided by the Winchester Online Ballistics Calculator:

• .264 Win Mag/ Bullet: 140 grains/ V0: 3030 ft/s/ E0: 2851 ft-lbs/s/ Drop at 300 y: -11,4 in/ Price (Cabelas online): USD 50
• .270 Win/ Bullet: 130 grains/ V0: 3060 ft/s/ E0: 2700 ft-lbs/s/ Drop at 300 y: -11,2 in/ Price (Cabelas online): USD 23


Based on the above data, why should the average North American hunter that does not re-load priviledge the use of the .264 over the .270; performances are almost similar (at least on paper) and prices range from 1 to 2?

Please don’t shoot at the messenger. I only wanted to demonstrate that if the .264 Winchester Magnum is to rise from dead it will only happen because the largest ammunition manufacturers would see a profit to make from this and will then organise the resurection. If not, as mentioned on top of this paper, this awesome calibre will only be kept alive (as many awesome calibres not anymore financially profitable enough for large manufacturers) thanks to hand-loaders and to some small ammunition makers specialising on niche calibres.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Louis]
      #321963 - 28/11/18 09:44 PM

Comparisons between different calibres can be endless. Ballistical data comparisons using the same bullet weight are often not valid though. A 120 gr .264, a 120 gr .270, 120 gr 7mm, or 120 gr .30 is NOT the same performing bullet irrespective of velocity, or ballistics.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: NitroX]
      #321968 - 29/11/18 12:45 AM

Quote:

Comparisons between different calibres can be endless. Ballistical data comparisons using the same bullet weight are often not valid though. A 120 gr .264, a 120 gr .270, 120 gr 7mm, or 120 gr .30 is NOT the same performing bullet irrespective of velocity, or ballistics.




Exactly..can drive yourself mad reading all the data..

Having said that, competitive shooters shoot what they do for a reason..which is why the 6.5 calibers have become all the rage in the last 5-10 year period..that and the fact as Louis mentions, along with millions spent on marketing the new products to sell more new items that are basically doing much the same as they did 50-70 years ago..

However comparing ballistics, and this is off of Hornady's website on the hot "NEW" bullet promoted for hunting with the Heat Shield..

6.5mm .264"
143 gr .625 (G1) .315 (G7)


270 Cal. .277"
145 gr .536 (G1) .270 (G7)

Quite a difference in the BC between the 2 calibers despite being very close in grs of the bullet..


Finally, there is a ton of MISINFORMATION out there on the 264W...I was reading some blogs earlier when I googled this caliber..it is laughable some of the complete BS people put out there as fact...case in point, one blogger wrote, I hear you need a 26" barrel for a 6.5 bullet to perform..not mentioning anything about case capacity... pretty sure the 6.5 CM doesn't need a 26" barrel to perform..

Another misguided individual stated, well, I would choose a 270 as it has a larger selection of bullets that the 6.5 calibers do..really??? Have you been under a rock for the past 5 years??

All in all, none of this makes much difference if you are shooting 1 to 400 yards..its once you hit the 6-800 and more, the difference in drop will be more noticeable..IMHO and experience.. and where the .6.5 bullets start to really shine..

Louis is correct, economics is key to keep this cartridge alive.. it does appear, at least for the present time, it has had a renewed interest. For a true, long range, reach out and touch someone caliber for hunting, even with all the "new" hype..this old dog holds its own very favorably..in fact outshines many that are getting all the press by a substantial margin..

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: Can- the 264-Winchester-mag -rise-from-dead?? by Spoomer [Re: Ripp]
      #321972 - 29/11/18 01:00 AM

Another proponent of the .264 W I found on line..
https://www.buckmasters.com/Magazines/GunHunter/Articles/ID/2057/The-Forgotten-264-Win-Mag

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