Quote:

---

My assumption was that non round nose projectiles may not feed as well from the magazine(?).

---

My experience is with the 9.5X57, but your assumption is correct.

The early Schönauer magazine was milled with the profile of the proprietary MS cartridge for which the arm is chambered. With the M1924 ('High Velocity') a 'ring' was added to the magazine that held cartridges in place, but in the 'classic' M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910 the cartridges were guided by their closely matched shape from the shoulder to the nose as the cartridge lays against the follower (spool).

The first photo below (I believe I 'swiped' it from a post of Kuduae's) shows Schoenauer magazines from small to tall. The second image shows an M1903 (6.5X54) alongside an M1910 (9.5X57). The third shows 6.5X54 cartridges 'nested' in the magazine. You can see how the 'profile' of the cartridge matches that of the magazine follower.



That said, with proper fitting cartridges, the Schoenauer magazine and the MS overall deserves its reputation as possibly the smoothest feeding sporting arm ever devised.


The surest way to have cartridges that will feed smoothly in the Schönauer magazine is to build them precisely as the originals. Spitzer type projectiles, unless they are carefully fitted, will jam on the third round. It seems the most critical point of contact (or lack thereof) is about 2/3 of the way from the cannelure to the bullet tip. If your projectile is too narrow at this point it will fall into a void and jam. Kuduae has posted specific instructions for loading spires in the M1910.

Make them like these, they'll work smother than greased snot.



Here's an Eley blueprint of the 6.5X54



You'll also want to pick up some Mauser clips (if you don't already have them).





By the way, you're going to love these things! There's nothing like a 'prewar' Mannlicher Schönauer.

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Oops, forgot to add.

When I first learned many years ago, the Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles in Stutzen form were considered fine alpine hunting rifles, it gave me pause. For hunting eg of European chamois and other mountain species.

If alpine hunting requires shooting at realtively longer ranges, the shorter barrels are less than ideal. And the 6.5x54 M-S cartridge with its heavy 160 gr Round Nose projectile is nothing like what most modern alpine hunters would think is ideal for longer range shots. The relatively curved trajectory seems out of odds for longer shots.

But one factor, is the carbine rifle, is probably more versatile and handy when climing in steep and difficult hunting terrain. Where a long and unwieldly barrelled rifle might be a hinderance. Therefore hunters of old perferring an handier rifle to get them upo there and get them closer.

Discussion welcome.

---

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Thanks Rothhammer.

Let the discussion continue, and more personal use comments.

---

Thank you, sir, for providing and maintaining this forum!



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Weren't you also purchasing a M1910 (9.5X57) a while back?

---

Yes. Courtesy of a very nice gentleman in Germany, there is a M-S in 8x56 and another in 9.5x57 waiting for me at a gun dealer who assisted me in the import and freight from Germany via Holts in the UK to Australia. Awaiting for police permits to process before I can pick them up.

Getting them here was quite an ordeal, but perserverance from both ends eventually saw them arrive. All the middle men nowadays get a fat cut ...

I have had the Greek MS for a number of years gathering dust at the back of the safe. Thinking it is time to at least shoot some rounds through it. Originally purchased to make a custom rifle out of it, since decided purchasing (in the never-never) a vintage rifle would be better and cheaper.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Hi Rothhammer,

You mentioned Kuduae had written in a thread about loading the M-S for spitzer bullets. Have had a good look for it, thought I had found it a couple of times but don't think so??? Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks.

---

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Better to test than to simply use 'printed' text. Oft times, written text is incorrect. Doing proves it one way or the other.

Simply done and the FINIS!

---

Quote:

---

it appears the magazine followers are shaped to the shoudler, thus the shoulder and not the bullet's nose is the guiding factor, thus spitzers should work just fine.

---

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

If Axel, (Kudae), said it will work or won't work, there's no need to pursue it farther I assure you.

---

I can dig it.

For all present and future who read these posts, however, let me be clear in summarizing what I am saying (and what Herr Eichendorff has written) regarding use of 'spitzers' and / or of projectiles shorter or narrower than those originally used in the Schönauer (Schoenauer) magazines of M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910 Mannlicher Schönauer rifles and carbines (stutzen):

One can fire spitzer projectiles or others of any shape from a Mannlicher Schönauer M1903, 05, 08, 10, rifle or carbine provided they do not exceed maximum bullet width or overall cartridge length.

What you cannot expect is to be able to load more than two of such in the Schoenauer magazine and have it function reliably (if at all) unless there is enough 'meat' (bullet diameter) near the bullet tip where it must engage the machined guide channel of the lower magazine housing or 'body'. If not, it will function well only as a two round magazine or as a single shot. Attempts at loading a third round will very likely jam the magazine as the first narrow or short round loaded slips partially into the void at the base of the magazine body.

The surest way to have cartridges that will feed reliably every time and with legendary smoothness befitting the 'classic' Mannlicher Schönauer is to build them to the exact profile of the originals per factory drawings of the MS proprietary cartridges or as closely to such profile as is practicable.


Cross section showing how the projectile engages a channel machined into the magazine body at the lower front which matches the contour of the bullet nose. That and another machined channel at the rear of the magazine which closely matches the contour of the cartridge base are what guide the cartridge on its rotational journey. If the bullet is too short, narrow, or deeply set, the cartridges are free to drop at the front and jam.


Here it is 'head on' (muzzle toward viewer) as being loaded from a 'stripper clip'. It is at this point, while loading, that the first round loaded will shift at the nose and jam if it does not properly engage the machined guide flange. Those empty corners are the area where the projectile and / or shoulder will bind.

Again, make them like this for smooth, consistent, effortless feeding:

The numbers on the cartridge images are the original Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) catalog numbers of the proprietary Mannlicher Schönauer cartridges, i.e :
M1903 - 6.5X54 - DWM 477
M1905 - 9X56 - DWM 491E
M1908 - 8X56 - DWM 528
M1910 - 9.5X57 - DWM 531

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Courtesy of a very nice gentleman in Germany, there is a M-S in 8x56 and another in 9.5x57 waiting for me

---

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

Silly question gentlemen.
In regard to the older models up to M1910 to avoid mutilating the rifle, could a small curved shaped block (polished)be fitted to the forward edge of the older styled magazine where the nose of the bullet would normally rotate over?
This should then provide support & allow whatever sized or length projectiles to be used, so they wouldn't tip out & hang up - especially No3, or am I missing something here?
I'm also assuming that this would have to be fitted above what appears to be the magazine release spring?
With the M1924 & later models that have the 'guide' ring this then fixed this issue?

---

Not silly at all.

I was having the same thoughts as I was posting the above descriptions of the 'problem' (pitfall, literally). In theory, such an auxiliary piece could even be held in place by a flush mounted screw and thus be removable (though the parts would be quite small). If one had a 'spare' magazine (such as a surplus 'Greek Contract" mag for a M1903) that was expendable, one could braze or weld material onto the front guide area and machine it to size / shape. Perhaps it would be easier, however, to fabricate and add a 'ring' just as the Steyr engineers did with the M1924 onward. All of this is speculation as I have never modified an MS magazine nor do I know of anyone who has.

This is the Magazine 'body', or housing, from a 6.5X54 'Greek Contract' MS (and is currently available on Ebay) It is the same as that of a M1903:



It is my understanding that the 'ring' added to magazines from M1924 onward 'fixed' the issue. My only MS is a M1910, so you'll have to ask others for accounts regarding actual use of different projectiles on M1924 (and later) Mannlicher Schönauers.

Another idea, if one was really fond of a particular spitzer load for their MS and wanted to do a proper job of it, would be to craft a precise model of a new lower housing and spindle of wax to fit the spitzer (or of another material, build a rubber mold around it and shoot some waxes), then make metal copies using the 'lost wax' (investment) process. CAD and 3D printing could be employed to make the model, then hand finish. Wax casting being a repeatable process, once one was made they could be reproduced indefinitely.

For me, I'll just continue building my M1910 rounds as close to the original DWM 531 profile as possible and / or try Kuduae's formulae. I have a good supply of 270 grain RNSP for can, bottle, and gong killing and am still searching for the ideal 'unleaded' hunting projectile for the M1910.

These look promising:
Peregrine Solid

Post Extras:

Quote:

---

In any case, as I have a... Steyr in 6.5x53R - a military rifle with even worse open sights, but
Let the discussion continue, and more personal use comments.

---

Post Extras: