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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions
      #321096 - 31/10/18 10:24 AM

This article may have been on here in the past (?) but ...

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial...1rTER-jlbzVajg#

Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions
Brad Fitzpatrick - October 08, 2014



Double rifle enthusiasts prefer these guns for dangerous game because they offer faster follow-up shots than bolt guns. Is that true

For years, writers and professional hunters have touted the use of double rifles for following up dangerous game because doubles offer "the fastest second shot." For this reason, many hunters planning a safari that will include dangerous game feel that they need a double to be prepared for a close-quarters encounter with dangerous game. However, before you spend five figures on a high quality double, it's important to know the facts, and the fact is that double rifles don't always provide you with the best solution when hunting dangerous game.

To help verify the claim that the double rifle offers a faster second shot than a bolt gun, I reached out to my friend Monty Kalogeras, owner of Safari Shooting School outside Mason, Texas. Monty has become well known for helping to train hunters who want to improve their shooting skills, and each year he helps many clients learn to shoot and handle big bore rifles before they travel to remote regions of the world in the pursuit of dangerous game. Monty has accumulated more data from speed tests than anyone I know, and he has a very good understanding of what a hunter needs to prevent being trampled, tossed, gored or mauled. The answer to whether the double or the bolt-action is faster, he says, is far more complex than a simple breakdown of the two action types.

"I timed shooters for almost two years to see which type of rifle allowed them to deliver the fastest aimed follow-up shot," he says. The key word is aimed. It's not simply a matter of making the gun go boom a second time but a matter of delivering an accurate shot, coming down from recoil and sending a second shot into the target that is in the right place to stop a charge.

"One day, I'd have a client that would be faster with a follow-up with a bolt gun than a double, and the next day, I'd have a different client that had the exact opposite results," Monty says. He thinks that the argument of bolt gun versus double gun is too simplistic and doesn't take into account the many factors that affect a shooter's ability to shoot well with either type of rifle. One thing is clear, though; double guns can be faster, but they aren't faster for everyone.

"I teach shooters how to manage recoil, which is critical when shooting a hard-kicking gun," Monty says.

The first step in delivering a fast, accurate follow up shot is learning to handle the kick and get back on target. There is one primary factor that has more to do with this ability than body weight or shooting experience: stance.

"If you take a shooter that fires a gun with their weight on their back leg or from a neutral stance they're not going to be fast with any big gun, bolt or double," Monty says. "You have to have an aggressive stance with your weight forward so that the gun doesn't push you off balance." Learning to improve stance makes you faster with any hard-kicking rifle that you shoot from an off-hand position, and it reduces muzzle rise.

"I just had a client that was in his sixties, slightly built, and he bought a .470 double for Africa. I always film my client's first shot and last shot so they can see the difference in muzzle rise. This wasn't a big guy, but on his last shot with the double, the muzzles didn't rise up more than an inch because he learned to control recoil."

Learning to shoot a double or a bolt gun is a mechanical process, Monty says, and you can learn the mechanics of either action so that you are fast and accurate when shooting that type of gun. Consider golf and baseball. In both sports, the object is to hit a ball with a stick, but the mechanics required to accomplish each task are different and must be learned. A good golfer can't necessarily hit a fastball and vice versa.

"Most shooters do better with a bolt gun immediately because that's what they're used to shooting," Monty says. "They understand the mechanics. That doesn't mean they won't be able to shoot a double well, but they need to learn proper mechanics for shooting a double rifle, which are different than a bolt-action."

For the shooter that is very skilled with both rifle types and has been trained to quickly shoot both a double and a bolt gun, Monty says that the double typically has a speed advantage for the second shot, but that's assuming you have a shooter who has trained extensively with both guns and who has the proper stance and handles recoil effectively. Such shooters are very rare, and for the majority of the shooting public, our personal skill sets make us faster with one rifle type. I fully understand this because I attended Monty's school myself. Because I have shot many, many more bolt guns than double rifles, I was naturally slower with a double. Simply put, the mechanics weren't there, and I needed help from a professional to help me walk through the process and learn the proper technique.

"The bolt gun versus double gun argument doesn't take into account the other variables that come into play either," Monty says. "This includes gun fit, stock contour, sights and caliber. I can consistently deliver two aimed shots with my .450-400 Nitro Express Heym double in 1.1 seconds, but it's rare that I can touch 2 seconds for two shots with my .500 Nitro Express Heym."

"Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you're faster on the second shot, you're also faster to an empty gun," he says. "Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles."

If your gun fits you well, you are accustomed to the action and sights, and you can effectively manage recoil, you will be faster with that rifle than you will with an ill-fitting gun that recoils so ferociously that you can't effectively manage the gun for the follow-up shot. Doubles do have their advantages, though; if there is a major mechanical failure, such as a broken firing pin, a double offers a separate, complete firing mechanism. If the firing pin on your bolt gun breaks, then you're in real trouble when facing dangerous game, and you'd better hope that someone nearby has the weapon and the skill to save your life.

So, in short, with all things being equal (gun fit, sights, caliber and gun weight and shooter's skill set), a double does offer a faster follow-up. But those variables are very rarely equal between a double and bolt gun for a single shooter. No matter which action you choose, learning proper technique and practicing often is the key to saving your life.

fact-or-fiction-double-rifles-offer-a-faster-second-shot-than-bolt-actions

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John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions [Re: NitroX]
      #321097 - 31/10/18 10:32 AM

More pics:

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial...1rTER-jlbzVajg#





















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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ash
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Re: Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions [Re: NitroX]
      #321140 - 01/11/18 06:56 PM

Those above pics made me think of something.
With a bolt gun to get shots 3-4 (and 5) you don’t have to look at what you’re doing on the reload. All the above pics they look down as they reload the doubles.

Who here does this? Or do you keep eyes on target whilst reloading? Seems that would be harder in a double.

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Ripp
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Re: Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions [Re: Ash]
      #321156 - 02/11/18 02:13 AM

Lots and lots of variables --in all of this..even the difference in recoil between the 2 calibers he is using can make a bit of a difference...think there is no doubt you can get a faster follow up with a double..but what if, as all things in life don't go as planned, you need a 3rd and 4th shot..like in a herd of elephants..they get pissed when you just dropped their buddy??? Have seen that happen... also I have shot bolts my entire life--doubles, not nearly as much...

Ripp

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xausa
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Re: Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions [Re: Ripp]
      #321160 - 02/11/18 06:24 AM

I have been in two situations, one with a truculent rhino and the other with a startled buffalo, where I had to fire four quick shots with my wildcat .505 SRE. I have no doubt that I was able to do so with my bolt gun and would have been unable to do so with one of my double rifles. Both salvos resulted in very dead animals. Long hours practicing rapid fire on the range paid off.

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Re: Fact or Fiction: Double Rifles Are Faster Than Bolt Actions [Re: xausa]
      #321192 - 03/11/18 06:19 PM

A lot of these articles are written often by quite un-intelligent people. Who lack simple logic in putting together an argument with supporting facts.

Not particularly referring to the writer of this article but similar articles ad naseum in the past.

"Recoil"? Recoil is completely irrelevant to the argument. If one assume a cartridge of similar power and recoil is used in both types of rifles, why would a double suffer more than recoil than a bolt action? Stupid lack of logic. Some of these writers on this argument, argue recovery from recoil means a double is slower than a bolt action because of recoil! Obviously the writer is probably referring to his lack of experience in shooting say a .500 Nitro double versus a .375 H&H Mag bolt action. Or some such. If one took say a .500 NE in a double and a .500 Jeffery in a bolt and if loaded to similar ballistics, and if the weight of each rifle was similar, no difference whatsoever in recoul recovery OTHER than fit of the rifle. Where often the double is superior.

Secondly as any experienced shooter knows, recoil is often not a huge factor when actually hunting. What is punishing at a range, is hardly felt in the field.

Experience. Is the shooter actually experienced in the rifles he is using. Or another armchair internet expert sprouting off. On forums we are all sometimes guilty of the latter now and again. We all wish we could be in the field hunting a lot more, and using our firearms a lot more. Also the modern "collection" mentality means often we have twelve guns to the one which is actually needed. "Fear the one gun hunter" was a saying once upon a time. Because he is very experienced in its use. If he uses it a lot.

Having said that, if a person is experienced with both a double rifle and a bolt rifle, there is no doubt whatsoever than the experienced shooter and hunter will shoot two rounds from his double rifle than with a bolt rifle. And for four or five rounds, the bolt rifle should be able to shoot faster.

Is the bolt rifle shooter dropping his rifle down to the waist to work the bolt? A very common method of so many inexperienced and even experienced shooters. PRACTICE reloading a bolt action at the shoulder until it is second nature. Forget about locating brass for reloading until afterwards. A double rifle needs never to be dropped from the shoulder to shoot a second shot.

And if we take the example of Alex Beer ising big bore single shots, he was practiced enough to win rapid fire eight shot competitions with his rifle. When many of us, have trouble putting accurate rapid fire rounds down in the time period, with bolts, having to reload the magazine half way through. Practice, experience and cool headedness makes a big difference.

Shooting in herd conditions? I was able to shoot multiple buffalo in culls using my Tikka 9.3x74R. Cows and younger bulls. Shooting one, then another. I did have a spotter advising me to go back and reshoot one of the earlier animals if it got up again. And after every two shots, open the action, the automatic ejectors throwing the shells over my shoulder, reloading and rapidly shooting two rounds again.

Another time, three years ago, shooting a wounded bull, and missing it, encouraged a charge. The second barrel had no seeming effect. Empty double. Ducked behind a tree expecting big trouble. But luckily the second shot must have effected a turn in the bull and he went past instead of chasing me around the tree. Another round in him as he ran past. I found him dead after an extensive search later one. Recorded elsewhere on the forums.

Now I could have wished for a bolt action when my rifle was empty. Could have been in big trouble.

But also it again reinforced to me a lesson. To wait in a charge for the bull to be a lot closer. Successful shooters will often wait for it to get a lot closer to put in a good shot, than shoot at a distance. Tough thing to do, but also easier to blast away multiple shots hoping for a result. Only experience and practice in running and charging shots (or luck) counts here.

Reloading fast? A bolt action with a removable spare magazine, can be reloaded very fast. Double rifle shooters who shoot a lot often have aids to help fast reloading. A wrist cartridge carrier puts spare rounds in a readily accessible place. Or a cartridge belt or pouch without a flap on top of the loops.

The place where a big bore double is ALWAYS better is in the very thick bush. When one can trip over a downed beastie before one even sees it ... A bolt action will NOT get two rounds off in such a situation, but a double can.

A bolt action is often preferred in more open country, where many shooters shoot them more accurately than they can a double rifle.

I like and use both. I always prefer my .450 NE double rifle to a bolt action for buffalo, elephant, other bovines though. More open country where plains game and perhaps some dangerous game might be hunted, I prefer a scope sighted bolt action. Maybe with the right double rifle if fitted with a scope, and able to be shot at longer medium ranges, it would be very usuable as well.

These articles shoudl stress one factor far more than simplistic comparisons. Learn to use your chosen rifle, and use it a lot. So it can be used well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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