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HunterGunner
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Reged: 05/05/14
Posts: 20
Loc: New Zealand
Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia?
      #320977 - 27/10/18 11:51 AM

A friend of mine recently told me someone was producing a Rigby style inletted stock for M98’s. He could not remember the source but was at a hunting expo in Australia when he met the guy who did them. Anyone know who this might be?

Cheers

Tim

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GG375
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: HunterGunner]
      #320979 - 27/10/18 01:51 PM

It's probably Hatcher's Rifle Stocks.

Cheers.

GG


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HunterGunner
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: GG375]
      #320980 - 27/10/18 05:06 PM

Quote:

It's probably Hatcher's Rifle Stocks.

Cheers.

GG




Thanks GG. Have they got a good reputation?

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GG375
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: HunterGunner]
      #320982 - 27/10/18 10:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It's probably Hatcher's Rifle Stocks.

Cheers.

GG




Thanks GG. Have they got a good reputation?




I think so mate.

They are one of the sponsers on the Australian Hunting Net forum and Cameron (the owner) posts quite regularly on there.....seems like a good bloke.

Pretty sure he bought all of Geoff Slee's stock (patterns, blanks and perhaps even pantographs) after Geoff passed away a few years ago.

Cheers.

GG


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yumastepside
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Reged: 25/10/15
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: GG375]
      #320985 - 28/10/18 03:21 AM

Gordon Cusens here in Tassie would probably have one as well.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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HunterGunner
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: yumastepside]
      #320989 - 28/10/18 04:03 PM

Cheers fellas, much appreciated

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: HunterGunner]
      #320991 - 28/10/18 07:54 PM

What 375 says is correct, he is an extremely nice chap and loves classic rifles as well. We converse regularly almost every week and he just machined a stock for me which was very well done. Yes he has all Geoff Slee's patterns and yes he does a Rigby style stock for the M98. If he is machining he won't answer the phone but if you leave a message he will always call back.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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xausa
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #320992 - 28/10/18 09:20 PM

I have found a German firm which offers Rigby style M98 fully inletted and finished stocks, https://schaftwerk.de/. I found the prices to be reasonable, the delivery time as well and the shipment cost from Germany, at least to the US, is reasonable, too. An example of their design can be found here: https://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=7141056


Edit: Fixed URL reference.

Edited by CptCurl (04/11/18 09:15 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: GG375]
      #320995 - 29/10/18 07:09 AM

Quote:

It's probably Hatcher's Rifle Stocks.

Cheers.

GG




http://hatchersriflestocks.com.au/

http://hatchersriflestocks.com.au/products-21.html

So which one would be "Rigby" styled?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: NitroX]
      #320997 - 29/10/18 08:08 AM

A post from last year:
Hatcher Gun Stock's, EOFY Sale
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=301054&an=&page=0&vc=1

Cameron Hatcher on NE, includes am email address:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showprofile.php?Cat=0&User=29032&page=1&what=showmembers

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Juglansregia
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: HunterGunner]
      #321004 - 29/10/18 10:27 AM

There has been much confusion as to where Geoff Slee's patterns ended up. I'm sick of reading and hearing about it so here goes:

Geoff's factory-stock patterns from memory went to a friend of a VIC gunsmith on the auction day. That includes Lots 112/114/115/116. Roger Vardy purchased a small handful of patterns that were bent, twisted and warped sold as "Lot 130 Odds and Sods". Lots 135/136 and 139 went to one or two other individuals, a handful of stocks machined in NZ walnut cut by Ted Stone; and misc O/U shotgun butts. However, these stocks were for the very great part a small fraction of the patterns that actually represented Geoff's business turnover. Oh, and a few patterns that I bought "evaporated" mysteriously after the auction on the following Sunday, despite measures taken to lock the room they were in.

Geoff's remaining patterns fell into three broad categories, as I saw them.

1) Commercial Patterns. This comprised, for the most part, the target/BR type patterns, silhouette, thumb-hole stock patterns. These were always the money spinners. It also includes sporter style stocks in Geoffs English Classic range, plus a few strays on broadly American styles. These represent the major source of income for Geoff over the years, by the very greatest majority.

2) His custom patterns, ie those done by Geoff for special jobs for makers like JC Millar, etc etc. These were patterns owned by Geoff - patterns which were the property of other entities were returned prior to the auction. These, to me and I am sure Geoff, represented the best of his efforts as a stock maker. He was somewhat sentimental about them, and rightly so.

3) His vintage British and Germanic patterns. One and two piece stocks by most of the grand old makers.

Some of the stocks and patterns in sections 2 and 3 were not even included in Slee's auction, but gifted to me afterward. Ditto some of Geoff's pet blanks that were just too good to auction off.

Cameron is in possession of the stocks comprising Lot 1. Plus Geoff's Lee Speed pattern, a Wilkins L579, perhaps a scant few exceptions. Plus a few of my own patterns - for example the BR50 is one of mine, and a few LH patterns. He has commercial rights to machine them, and I retain commercial rights to machine them for semi-custom jobs under our written agreement. Many of these patterns were warped, or inlets not right. It has been, for me, many countless hours to slowly sort through them. A few still remain to be done, but the patterns are now much better than when I first used them, and Cameron and I work together to get this sorted. Included in the English Classic Lot was a Rigby Style pattern of Geoff's making, based in style on the stocks I'll term "Paul Roberts Rigby Era" ie not vintage, but Rigby all the same. This shape has been inlet for various actions, M98, M70, L61R etc. This has long been the go-to Rigby style pattern in Oz. That should clear up the OP's question.

Patterns in sections 2 and 3 above are retained here in Tasmania, and the commercial rights to use the Slee name as it pertains to gunstocks, for reasons explained to Cameron. I was asked and have an agreement with Geoff to evolve and improve the breed of those in section 2. This is not my main focus, although I have many hundreds of hours in them now. Commercially, they were not really profitable for Geoff compared to the others but represent a great deal of passion and history and the epitome of his talent. Custom work pays real low. Patterns from Section 2 and patterns evolved from Section 2 will never be sold while I am alive, due to my agreement with Geoff. Included in Section 3 are Geoff's original vintage stock patterns. These include a few Rigby (ie Rigby family ownership) stock patterns. I am a bit of a hoarder of vintage stocks. For example, as well as Geoffs Rigby 275 pattern I have 18 or 19 others for 275's, plus the magnum stocked variants. They make an interesting library to draw from when making new patterns from the block. Oz in the 80's and 90's saw hundreds of vintage guns and rifles re-stocked for various reasons, in the great part by Slee and Waghorn.

For me, personally, to evolve and improve the breed, is much more rewarding for me.

Folk were ripping off copies of stocks cut from patterns in section 1 above long before Geoff died. I know it irked him greatly. Unfortunatley they were never copyrighted, so the horse has bolted on that front and for most of the patterns in Section 1 it's seen as open slather by some pantograph owners. Bloody shame and most unfortunate, but then the reality is that Cameron keeps the market fairly saturated with stocks cut from those patterns, and anyone wanting to compete with him have a real hard time generating patterns and getting a good wood supply.

Stocks cut from my own evolved patterns, plus those from section 2; and those from patterns of my own making, come marked with a Copyright normally under the grip cap flat or elsewhere on straight handed stocks or those with a Bag Grip.

There are numerous machines in Oz now, but very few if any are competent at stocking from the blank, which limits generation of original patterns significantly. I firmly agree with prior statements by folks like Darcy Echols and Bill Hambly Clark Jnr when it comes to what it takes to machine a stock decently. So if a person cannot make a decent pattern, they ought to aquire in an ethical fashion.

These last 15 or so years, I have spent around 50% of my work time cutting new patterns, and later also much time working on Geoff's, and vintage stuff like the Lee Speeds. Machining Geoff's production patterns was killing me, workload wise. Section 1 of the patterns went to Cameron Hatcher as agreed - nearly all of the popular stuff.

As far as the patterns Cameron has, I strongly urge folk not to accept a copy from anyone else who does not have fair claim to them. In effect, that only means me, with exception to the purchasers of the above pattern Lots who may copy them -but then they are not the same patterns! Cameron provides a valuable service in producing copies of those patterns.

As for myself, I don't copy Slee patterns from Section 1 above, unless for a custom job. Section 2 and 3, I sometimes do - when time permits. Ditto my own patterns. With so many blanks cut I have to move the buggers somehow. I've tried dropping much of the workload, but there is still enough demand to keep me extremely busy. And Cameron too.

There have been quite a few false and misleading claims made, some of it in print, about who got the bulk of Geoff's gear. There is much more history than that, but the above is enough.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Juglansregia]
      #321009 - 29/10/18 11:08 AM

Thanks for the post and information.

Yes you are very correct. Trademark, copyright, and patent infringement is big time in all sorts of areas. Especially the internet.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Juglansregia]
      #321010 - 29/10/18 11:09 AM

Thanks for that, very informative. I obviously made a small mistake with writing "all" instead of "some". Still he is a very nice chap and he does good work.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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GG375
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #321020 - 29/10/18 01:38 PM

Quote:

Thanks for that, very informative. I obviously made a small mistake with writing "all" instead of "some". Still he is a very nice chap and he does good work.

Matt.




Yes, thanks Gordon for setting the record straight.

Cheers.

GG


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Juglansregia
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #321026 - 29/10/18 06:31 PM

For the record I was not sniping at anyone on NE forums....generated a few phone calls though. Previously there has been a bit of mis-information on one or two other forums, and I wouldn't waste my time setting them straight.

Matt, yes Cameron is a good bloke. I know him pretty well, and he's in full knowledge of my prior post.

The Rigby style pattern which Cameron has is a proven one. Copying "vintage" originals is a can of worm, for lots of reasons. Respect and Ethics must be considered, for me at least. Other than that there are other things to consider. Not the least, is that for example all early Rigby's I have seen in person had heavily filed tangs, which is much of the reason they feel nice in the hands. A supplier of machined stocks has to deal with this issue. Does he supply the stock machined say 0.020" oversize, and expect the person fitting the stock to file the tangs up? Will the striker nut "ditch" need dovetailing, or the shroud lock attending to to prevent the striker nut riding up onto the tang and jamming? Is the bolt so loose in the receiver that it's going to be a problem anyway? Ditto, what trigger will be used? The position in the guard bow is somewhat dependent on the make of trigger used, which can result in a grip not to the customers liking. Much to consider than "I want a replica Rigby style stock". If the metalwork is done first (the smarter way) how does one ensure the machined stocks tangs will match, and the stock still look and feel right. It doesn't take much to throw it out. If you machine with lots of extra wood, how does a bloke know some horrid job of it won't be made, which you get the blame for?

Ditto, modern built rifles rarely have open sights slung nice and low to the bore. These mostly have to be made and not many will cop the expense. Kits sights like those from ERA/NECG are very high off the bore axis, and work OK in conjunction with a low slung scope. But they are completely at odds with the drop at heel of many original open sighted stocks that folk so badly want to copy. And even if the owner reckons he can see the sights OK, well they look like a "goth" hooker dressed in an Edwardian dinner dress. Or whatever else is horrid to some but perhaps not all.

Then there is the fact that from memory all pre-WWII Rigby 275's I've seen (quite possibly they did them on std length actions though) were built on intermediate small or large ring 98's. They did make them on std length actions (I have a few stocks here, mid 1950's), but they feel different in the hands even if they look so alike. Much of the modern bottom metal used on custom rifles is bloody heavy, and before you know it you have a fat pig in your hands when you wanted a slimmer model. So when Old Mate rings up wanting a traditional Rigby style stock, there is much to consider. And by the time you have run the customer through all the intricacies, you've blown the loot earned in machining the bugger - assuming you get a job that is. Not a good business decision, then, but more a passion.

Assuming you get the job, how do you guarantee making tolerances the customer wants, if you don't have the metalwork? Whole nother mission, that. And then, if the customer wants a custom quality job, does he or she have the skills to achieve that? Machined stocks have a few differences fitting them up as opposed to letting metalwork into a bandsawed but un-shaped blank - for just one example, they move much more and you have to be very careful not to get false transfer of lamp black when inletting. The whippier the stocks, the easier it is to wind up with gaps through poor technique. And of course the way human nature often works -well it's normally the bloke machining the stock who dunnit....... The slim ones are harder to machine, too. You have to be mindful of bending the pattern and blank due to centre pressure - it doesn't take much. And you have to have good steadies and be able to use them. The whippier the stocks, the harder it all is. And wood movement has to be minimised by best practices, which is yet another subject hardly ever talked about. Yes, I also reckon wood stability problems are more likely to become a problem with the whippier stocks, at least that's what my experience tells me.

Other than just loving them so much, the above are just a few of the reasons that demonstrate why I'll never part with those stocks. The same issues apply to Geoff Slee's "custom" patterns - they just don't suit most of the metalwork out there and represent a trap for the unwary. Not many folk seem to consider such things, in my experience.

Geoff's non-vintage "Rigby Style" patterns were designed to avoid most of the above issues, and still give Joe Average a bit of "Rigby" flavour. Which was very practical of Geoff, all things considered. The drop figures were done to what Geoff reckoned was the go at the time, and it works OK for most with either a scope or most of the higher "kit custom" iron sights out there. Unless someone wants to be really thorough, and go all the way to a full vintage style rifle, Geoff's pattern is not a bad way to go. The same sort of thing applies to his other pattern styles, they suit the more commonly encountered metalwork much more so.

Funnily enough this M98 Rigby pattern was the first stock I ever machined, on Geoffs machine which he allowed me to spend a bit of time on. When I was first invited to spend time with Geoff, he took a fair bit of time off to show me how things were done. Picked me up at the airport, took me hunting, cut some blanks together etc etc. The pattern back then had a bit of negative cast (warpage from memory), which I did not like, so we re-made it suit a RH'er with very minimal if any cast. When the time came Geoff pulled out a really horrid looking blank that very few would touch back then, and watched over while I bandsawed and set it between centres to avoid the white wood, bark inclusions and a few pinholes and termite holes, and trap the best colour considering grain flow etc. It cut low end exhibition. It just cleared a perfectly sound stock, and I was hooked. What a revelation. From memory there is a LH version of it, too. Prior to that I was a "from the block" minded snob, but in some ways the machine has distinct advantages, to me at least, which are rarely mentioned.


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Rule303
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Juglansregia]
      #321055 - 30/10/18 09:20 AM

Thanks for the insight Gordon.

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Hendo
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Rule303]
      #321058 - 30/10/18 02:41 PM

Thanks to Gordon for spending the time to give us a detailed understanding of the history of Geoff Slee's stocks and indeed his legacy.
I have two custom Mauser 98's built with Geoff Slee stocks, one is in 9.3x62 and the other in .308. Both beautifully built by a well known Adelaide gunsmith. And both are a delight to shoot and hunt with. Gordon's posts have given me a greater appreciation for the passion and skill that went into them.
I also have a Hatcher stock (Lee Speed) and can concur that Cameron is very professional, and very easy to deal with.
Cheers

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.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Hendo]
      #321065 - 30/10/18 08:53 PM

Thanks again for your detailed explanation. I don't think anybody thought you were sniping, just informing everybody how it actually is, from the horses mouth so to speak. Good on you.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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CameronH
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #321069 - 30/10/18 09:27 PM

Hi Folks, I've responded to the Op's email enquiry so thanks for pointing Tim towards me. That Rigby pattern isnt on my website yet along with several others, Im in the process of building a new one but time is something not in abundance around here! Also Thanks Gordy for the detailed explanation into the history of Slees patterns, Its something I find myself getting asked nearly weekly and to have this as a reference point for people wanting to know the in depth truth its real handy to be able to refer them to this thread. I never met Geoff - had spoken to him on the phone several times before he got sick and had my first taste of finishing off one of his thumbholes with my old man when I was just a teenager. Little did I know back then that Id be churning them out to put food on the table 25 yrs later!

Cheers,

Cameron Hatcher

Edited by CameronH (30/10/18 09:30 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Rigby style M98 inletted stocks for sale in Australia? [Re: CameronH]
      #321198 - 03/11/18 06:48 PM

Thanks to Cameron and Gordon for their comments.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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