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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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cadet
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Reged: 10/09/07
Posts: 18
Loc: Western Victoria, Australia
T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound
      #315155 - 10/04/18 12:10 PM

I jumped with indecent haste on an example of Thomas Bland's "Euoplia" 12g ball-and-shot gun yesterday. While I suffer the longest wait for it to be sent to me and confirm whether it's the treasure I think it might be, what should I expect? How should I feed it? Ball, or Fosbery bullet, or something else? It is BP proofed; but how much powder? There's scant on the web about them, but the handful of references out there suggest it ought to shoot well. Would Lake's book be worth getting? Or will I find enough to get me going in Wright'?
Thanks.


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TH44
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #315183 - 11/04/18 08:41 AM

The load may be on the gun - 3 - 4 1/2 (MAX! drams BP is for some H&H heavy load paradoxes)

Easy start may be the Lee .690 ball, possibly patched

I am sure Daryl will be along soon to give you more detailed info

Look forward to the pics

TH44


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: TH44]
      #315184 - 11/04/18 10:40 AM

I'm excited to see and hear more about it when it arrives.
I've never handled a Bland ball and shot gun.

Do you have photos?



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Kynoch
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Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 25
Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: tinker]
      #315187 - 11/04/18 12:05 PM

I have one. Mine is rather plain but very solid. Defiantly a round ball gun. The rifling is slow and very faint. You may need to turn it into the light different angles to see it. Originally had 2.5" chambers that were opened up to 2.75". BP proofs but light nitro does work. These folks can provide a letter for a change. http://www.woodcockhill.com/ it's more shotgun than rifle but it's a very nice piece.

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cadet
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Posts: 18
Loc: Western Victoria, Australia
Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: Kynoch]
      #315188 - 11/04/18 12:58 PM

Thanks Kynoch, that's exactly the sort of stuff I'd like to know; and I think TH44 your suggestion of the .690" round ball may be a good starting point. Now just to work on powder charge, wadding and patching.

Tinker, I have pics from the dealer, but no idea how and where to post them since photobucket shot itself in the foot. In short, it's a plain-looking toplever, bar action hammer gun with a straight stock, yet it has some stylish touches, like drop points on the stock head, better than average walnut, and shell fences for the hammers to fall into. It has steel barrels; damascus is normally my thing, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity for a play with a ball-and-shot gun for under AUD 1,000...


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Daryl_S
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #315194 - 12/04/18 03:38 AM

What a peach! Diameters will be the first thing to find out, along with chamber lengths and load data on the table or barrels.
The undersized balls, like TH44 suggested, if held in a cup wad, can give amazingly accurate results and NO LEADING. The "cup wad" takes the rifling. this sort of thing shoots well in smooth bores as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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cadet
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Loc: Western Victoria, Australia
Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315197 - 12/04/18 08:20 AM

Yes: I think it might be a lovely peach of a thing!
I don't think there's load info engraved or stamped anywhere; action and barrel flats show no more than usual shotgun proof marks.
Some of the dealer's pics sent to me:
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Edited by cadet (12/04/18 08:30 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #315200 - 12/04/18 10:03 AM

Beautiful & lovely wood!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Kynoch
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #315201 - 12/04/18 10:17 AM

Lovely! Agreed. Measure the bores first. Defiantly a round ball gun. The undersize ball in a shot cup does work (not sure how a patch would work in practice). A .690 ball drops though the barrels. Consider a .735 ball without a shot cup if your measurements work out. A fiber wad behind the ball will seal the bore. Would be curious if yours appears to have three very subtle "lands" in the barrels. Congrats!

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Sarg
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: Kynoch]
      #315204 - 12/04/18 07:46 PM

Nice Gun, well done on getting it, looks just like a T Bland I was going to buy in the UK many years back, I have had a computer crash & the photos were on that unfortunately ?

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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Daryl_S
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: Sarg]
      #315210 - 13/04/18 03:12 AM

I had good luck in a 13 bore rifle, with denim patched round balls. They actually gave the best accuracy and with the Neetsfoot oil in the patch, shot very cleanly. I thought the crimp might pull the patch off the ball, but it did not.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315216 - 13/04/18 07:43 AM

Beautiful piece of kit there mate!
Hope to see the flats etc as that's where your proof etc will be!
It is going to be a very interesting journey for you, we all will like to see this old girl shoot again; please keep us informed of your progress
93x64mm


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bouldersmith
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: 93x64mm]
      #315293 - 15/04/18 09:26 AM

Very nice old rifle. Enjoy it in good health.

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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cadet
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: bouldersmith]
      #315670 - 26/04/18 09:57 PM

It's in my grubby little mitts now...

What a pearler of a gun! Well used, but intact and sound.

The really interesting bit, of course is the pair of tubes. The gun weighs about 7 1/4 lbs, but is nose heavy for a 28" gun, balancing about 2 inches ahead of the hinge. The smooth-ish bores are proofed at 13/1 (.719”-.729”) and are .722”, and the walls a minimum of .050”. The “rifling” is of a form reminiscent of Charles Lancaster’s oval bore patent, but with three wide, shallow, rounded “grooves”, with a major diameter of about .738”. They run full length, and, as best I can work out, have a rate of about 1 turn in 48 inches. No choking to speak of. It is only really visible as a definite triple-helical pattern of light and shadow when the bores are held up to a good light.

Looks like a shotgun on the outside, but feels like a rifle and looks it, too, on the inside. This should be fun - if I can figure out what to feed it.


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Wayne59
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #315723 - 27/04/18 12:14 PM

With that twist rate it would be a pretty heavy slug.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #315745 - 28/04/18 12:11 AM

Quote:

It's in my grubby little mitts now...

What a pearler of a gun! Well used, but intact and sound.

The really interesting bit, of course is the pair of tubes. The gun weighs about 7 1/4 lbs, but is nose heavy for a 28" gun, balancing about 2 inches ahead of the hinge. The smooth-ish bores are proofed at 13/1 (.719”-.729”) and are .722”, and the walls a minimum of .050”. The “rifling” is of a form reminiscent of Charles Lancaster’s oval bore patent, but with three wide, shallow, rounded “grooves”, with a major diameter of about .738”. They run full length, and, as best I can work out, have a rate of about 1 turn in 48 inches. No choking to speak of. It is only really visible as a definite triple-helical pattern of light and shadow when the bores are held up to a good light.

Looks like a shotgun on the outside, but feels like a rifle and looks it, too, on the inside. This should be fun - if I can figure out what to feed it.





Could you take a picture of the bore?...

Interesting it is...


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Daryl_S
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: rigbymauser]
      #315746 - 28/04/18 12:40 AM

Cadet - my bro is currently working with a Joseph Lang 16 bore rifle with a 48" twist. It loves round ball and 3 to 4 drams. I would for-go the heavy slug and shoot round ball.

The use of this seemingly fairly fast twist was common in England in the mid 1800's in muzzleloaders and earlier ctg. guns.

A cupped wad made of plastic or card/fiber will hold an undersized ball in the middle of the bore and spin it perfectly, with zero leading. If using a plastic base cup, you need a hard card wad between it and the powder.

With 2 1/2" paper or plastic, you should be able to use 3 to 4 drams quite nicely. If using brass cases, you will likely need 11 bore wads to fill those cases, along with a somewhat larger ball.

I do not think I would use a ball larger than about .724".
Please consider what I said about a cloth, 12oz denim or light canvas patched undersized ball in a brass case.

Brass case mouths will have to be annealed before crimping.

Jeff Tanner of the UK will make any size mould you want.
www.trackofthewolf.com has all the shotshell wads from circle-fly, listed in actual thousandths with the bore sizes.

Good luck and keep us posted.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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cadet
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: Daryl_S]
      #320180 - 29/09/18 03:59 PM

Post script:
I think I've got it almost working: 10 shots, 50 metres off the bench. This could tighten somewhat with some tweaking: everything on the left of the group came from the right barrel, and vice versa.


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rigbymauser
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #320183 - 29/09/18 08:30 PM


Looks good Cadet.

Could you take a picture of the bores please?.

Kind regards. J


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cadet
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Reged: 10/09/07
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Loc: Western Victoria, Australia
Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: rigbymauser]
      #320185 - 29/09/18 08:48 PM

This is just about as good as I can get. Like lancaster, only with three "corners":

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rigbymauser
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #320217 - 30/09/18 06:21 PM

Thanks

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93x64mm
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: cadet]
      #320232 - 01/10/18 07:27 AM

Quote:

Post script:
I think I've got it almost working: 10 shots, 50 metres off the bench. This could tighten somewhat with some tweaking: everything on the left of the group came from the right barrel, and vice versa.




If you measured the bores both front & rear, I guess you could determine if there was indeed predetermined crossover of the barrels?
If there was a too great of a divergence, you may have to re-regulate the old girl - that would be a quandary for you!
But apart from that Cadet it's certainly be accurate enough to bring home the bacon!


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Daryl_S
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: 93x64mm]
      #320244 - 01/10/18 01:49 PM

What was the load tried? Some BP guns shoot closer with more powder (higher velocity), same projectile.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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CommandCar
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Re: T. Bland "Euoplia" inbound [Re: Daryl_S]
      #320925 - 24/10/18 03:26 PM

Yup, assuming you are not interfering with free recoil of the barrels, a little more speed is needed to stop the crossing in these. It might raise the impact up a bit. Looks like the Euoplia is still regulated for the "right load". When you get 4-6" groups at 100, you know that you have the right load - wad, hull, ball alloy, ball diameter, powder, etc. tons of variables to play with & can be frustrating.

Very nice B & S.


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