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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle
      #320757 - 19/10/18 12:28 PM

Hello all,

Can anyone help with information about a James Macnaughton Double Rifles?

I acquired this one and I'm trying to find some History. I've never owned a Macnaughton. Its serial number is 986 chambered in 577-500 No. 2 bpe caliber.


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Below is the auction description. As you can see it was listed as a 450bpe, however, when it arrived I was surprised to find it wasn't a 450bpe. My 450bpe cartridges dropped deep into the chambers. Same thing happened when I tried 500bpe cartridges in the chambers. It was something much bigger. A chamber cast discovered it was actually a 577-500 No.2 bpe. Not sure if that makes this a better value, or a wash.

I'm hoping that some detail History can be found. I love History.


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I was told that John Dickson had the Macnaughton records so I stayed up until 3:45am this morning (9:45am at the John Dickson office in Scotland) I just got off the phone from speaking with them. Unfortunately they told me that the majority of the Macnaughton Records were lost in a fire long ago. They said they only had one Field Record Volume with limited information. Upon their searching that Volume while I waited on the phone, they informed me that it did not contain my serial number.

So I guess that's the end of the line for finding any additional History about this rifle from them.

If there are any Macnaughton experts out there, please chime in.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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casper50
.400 member


Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1342
Loc: Alaska
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #320760 - 19/10/18 01:59 PM

In my opinion the 577-500 #2 makes it worth more. My favorite BPE cartridge.

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: casper50]
      #320780 - 19/10/18 10:13 PM

Hello casper50,

Thanks for your reply.

This rifle has an unusual feature that I've not seen before. (see pic) Stars stamped on the breech end of the barrels over the chambers.

Anyone know the meaning of those "stars" stamped over the chambers?

They are located almost exactly at the center of each chamber. They appear to have been stamped "after" the last refinishing / re-blackening based on the raised edges.




--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #320787 - 20/10/18 02:04 AM

The only single star stamps I’m familiar with are French or Spanish but not at all for this type of firearm.
Odd that they are on the tops of the barrels too.

Anyway, I agree that a 500No.2 is more fun than a 450 but I don’t know if it is more or less desirable to the majority of collectors.
450s being much easier to source dies and brass etc.
I have had success with this cartridge using black and smokeless - it seems pretty forgiving.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3975
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #320800 - 20/10/18 07:22 AM

buckstix you've done it again!
Another lady to grace your gun cupboard - just marvellous!
Make sure you get the loading data in here when you get the time, as this is one cartridge that I would like to reload for in the future; but base it on an old Martini Action I have spare!
Well done mate

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #320802 - 20/10/18 10:11 AM

An excellent classic period rifle of high quality, the only difference of "quality" in this case being the level of engraving

The percussion style fences are my personal favourite (especially considering they were cut by hand!), and the high hammers that are usually circa 1970, medium and lower hammers being later

The London proofs are post 1855, the variations after are more relevant to shotguns The 40 bore is .488, and close enough for the .577/500 No.2, a good all round cartridge, popular in India for everything except perhaps elephant

I have a double "Howdah" rifle (posted here somewhere) and a WR "Improved Martini" in that calibre

Desirability of calibres is personal, although a full .577 BPE (or Nitro!) generally commands a premium

The difference between .450 - 3 1/4" and .577/500 N0. 2 is personal and equably desirable, manufacturer and condition being more important, McNaughton being top quality

You certainly have a very desirable DR and good luck if you are going to shoot it

TH

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #320804 - 20/10/18 11:41 AM

Hello 93x64mm

Thanks for the reply.

I'll be sure to post loading data with targets.
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Quote:

"...The percussion style fences are my personal favourite (especially considering they were cut by hand!), and the high hammers that are usually circa 1970, medium and lower hammers being later..."
TH

Hello TH44,

Thanks for the reply.

Did you mean to say "1870" instead of 1970?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #320808 - 20/10/18 12:14 PM

Of course 1870, as it is late my brain is not fully functioning!!

TH

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: TH44]
      #320815 - 20/10/18 08:03 PM

Normally a .500cal before 1887 would have been marked `38` for the bore. The Macnaughton is marked `40`.?..
Maybe it is a true fortybore?. Cast a .488"cal bullet+ paperpatching = .500"..

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #320818 - 20/10/18 11:45 PM

Hello rigbymauser,

Thank for the reply.

As the picture shows in my opening post, I made a chamber cast which extends into the rifling. These barrels have 7-groove Henry-Style rifling which makes measuring across the lands difficult. Nearest can I measure is 0.507" groove dia.

Today I made a ball gauge to measure the bore diameter. It measured exactly 0.490" in both barrels. This would explain why the barrel flats are marked "40" and not "39". When gauging the bore a 39 gauge would not fit, but a 40 gauge would. (see chart)



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #320819 - 21/10/18 12:52 AM

It will be interesting to see what neck ID your fire formed brass has.
Do all of the other measurements of your chamber cast jive pretty closely to the normal No.2 case?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #320820 - 21/10/18 01:17 AM

Looks like you are going to be in the paper patching business.

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #320830 - 21/10/18 10:26 AM

Quote:

It will be interesting to see what neck ID your fire formed brass has.
Do all of the other measurements of your chamber cast jive pretty closely to the normal No.2 case?

Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

I never did measure the chamber cast. I had some "new" 577-500 No.2 cases and tested them in the chambers. They easily fit - even when loaded. So I fired them. (see below) I tried slippng some of the .511 dia bullets into the fired brass, and it was a close "slide-fit" - perfect.

I'll test some more loads with slightly more powder. So far pressures were light with easy extraction with the fingers.


Quote:

Looks like you are going to be in the paper patching business.


Hello Wayne 59,

Thanks for the reply.

I hate paper patching. I use that only as a last resort. Based on my results below, I don't think I'll need to go there.

Here's the results of today's shooting. I tried 3 different loads. The gas-checked bullets were both .511" dia and the Woodleigh SP bullets were .510" dia. This rifle really likes those Woodleighs. I think all went well - do you agree?







--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #320836 - 21/10/18 12:27 PM

Pretty good groups with those Ausi bullets.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #320840 - 21/10/18 01:18 PM

Elmer K liked to bullets for the single shot rifles, that "just" barely fit into fired brass, so neck sizing was not necessary.
If they 'just fit' and are held there by a light crimp that is
straightened out when firing - AND they shoot well, perfection had been found.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #320856 - 21/10/18 11:30 PM

Quote:

Pretty good groups with those Ausi bullets.

Hello Wayne 59,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I'm very pleased with the results, especially the Woodleighs.

Quote:

Elmer K liked to bullets for the single shot rifles, that "just" barely fit into fired brass, so neck sizing was not necessary.
If they 'just fit' and are held there by a light crimp that is
straightened out when firing - AND they shoot well, perfection had been found.

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

That might also work with a double rifle, so long as you could get an adequate crimp to hold the bullet in the second chamber in place during recoil. I might try that to see what happens.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #320859 - 22/10/18 02:52 AM

That is exactly what I had in mind, buckstix
when I mentioned crimping.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3975
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #320861 - 22/10/18 08:00 AM

Man oh man - you have a winner Buckstix!
Your loads should be mild if taken from Marrakai's tests on his Rhodda.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....;o=&fpart=1
But hey if it works in your rifle then that's all that matters!
I wonder what that round would be capable of in a Martini????

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #320880 - 22/10/18 11:28 PM

Quote:

Man oh man - you have a winner Buckstix!
Your loads should be mild if taken from Marrakai's tests on his Rhodda.

But hey if it works in your rifle then that's all that matters!
I wonder what that round would be capable of in a Martini????


Hello 93x64mm,

Thanks for the reply.

Today I'm increasing my load to 54g IMR 4198 with 440g Woodleighs, 450g Woodleighs, and the 435g gc bullets. I'll post the results.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
.400 member


Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1109
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #322496 - 15/12/18 11:57 PM

Quote:

That is exactly what I had in mind, buckstix
when I mentioned crimping.

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

Sometimes I seat the bullet "far-out" to touch the rifling thus preventing any forward movement of the bullet in the second barrel.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3975
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Macnaughton 577-500 No.2 bpe Double Rifle [Re: buckstix]
      #341142 - 17/05/20 08:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Man oh man - you have a winner Buckstix!
Your loads should be mild if taken from Marrakai's tests on his Rhodda.

But hey if it works in your rifle then that's all that matters!
I wonder what that round would be capable of in a Martini????


Hello 93x64mm,

Thanks for the reply.

Today I'm increasing my load to 54g IMR 4198 with 440g Woodleighs, 450g Woodleighs, and the 435g gc bullets. I'll post the results.



Hey Buckstix
How did the 54gn tests go?

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