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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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Rolf
.333 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 343
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
12/65 shotgun built on 98 system
      #320537 - 10/10/18 11:44 PM

Gentlemen,

during a visit at a gunsmith-friend I noticed an unusual "rifle", built on a Mauser 98 standard system with a very thick barrel.
On closer examination I found manufacturer marks of "RWE"company on the 98 system and the barrel stamped with the word "Nitro".
The gun has the caliber 12/65 and has a modified bolt system for feeding the shotgun cartridge from the magazine. One magazine box wall is set to the side to provide an enlarged magazine box for storing the fat cartridges.
Handling, loading, shooting and safety function is the same as the common 98 system.

My friend gave me the range of the possible manufacturing year as between 1917 and 1930.
An assumption for the existence of the gun could be the amount of military rifles in 8mm caliber which should be destroyed after the lost WW1. Some owners ordered the rifles to be changed to have a gun for hunting purposes.

If anybody knows more about the manufacturer or these guns I would be happy to hear about it!

Best regards
Rolf

PS: And yes, if anyone is interested I can take some photos and send these to someone who is interested of loeading these in the nitroexpress-system...
:-)


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 2792
Loc: Colorado
Re: 12/65 shotgun built on 98 system [Re: Rolf]
      #320538 - 11/10/18 01:15 AM

They are usually stamped Geha or Remo.
Not particularly rare or valuable it seems.
Neat idea though and Ive always pondered the possibilities of building up a slug gun such as these.
Biggest drawback is that the front bolt lugs are lost in the conversion so only the rear lug is utilized. Must be OK for a shotgun but a rifled slug gun may produce more pressure than would be acceptable.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1267
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 12/65 shotgun built on 98 system [Re: Huvius]
      #320539 - 11/10/18 01:37 AM

Apparently a GEHA or, more likely, a REMO shotgun. These two-shot repeaters were made on M98 Mauser actions, either ex-military or made from left-over forgings, from 1919 to the early 1920s. RwE = Reichswerke Erfurt was the 1919 1920 name of the former Royal Prussian Small Arms Factory in Erfurt. Immediately after the end of WW1 they tried to convert to civilian production. They made M98 hunting rifles, such Remo shotguns and Ortgies pistols until their dissolution in1921 due to the Versailles "peace treaty".
The Remo shotgun was patented by the Rempt brothers, Suhl. Here are two photos of such a RwE Remo action. Several articles on these guns may be found in "Waidmannsheil", a publication of the German Gun Collectors Association, www.germanguns.com



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Daryl_S
.577 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18061
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12/65 shotgun built on 98 system [Re: kuduae]
      #320540 - 11/10/18 02:11 AM

I had one for a while when I was a kid in Ontario.

My memory tells me it was a 20 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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93x64mm
.400 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 1323
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: 12/65 shotgun built on 98 system [Re: Daryl_S]
      #320546 - 11/10/18 07:31 AM

Yes please Rolf - please send thru some photos of this unusual beast!

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2152hq
.275 member


Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 85
Loc: USA
Re: 12/65 shotgun built on 98 system [Re: 93x64mm]
      #320603 - 13/10/18 12:56 AM

I've had a couple of them. The separate bolt head made for the conversion is something to watch for.
It can be easily taken off of the bolt by pulling it straight off the front of the bolt body as it is only held in place by the spring tension applied by the modified original Mauser extractor.

I had one that would once in a while pop the bolt head off when ejecting a fired shell. You had to watch closely!
The dangerous part of the set up is that even with the bolt head removed,,the gun can fire a round. The bolt will close on a round w/o the bolt head in place and the firing pin still in the bolt of course easily reaches the shells primer as it should.
The result is a totally unsupported shell from the back shell in the chamber being fired.
Very exciting..

I've seen more than a few of these lying out for sale at shows with the bolt head missing.
Unsuspecting new buyers might not realize the danger,,I suspect some of the shifty dealers knew better but of course no mention of the danger on the tag.

The 12ga conversions use only the rear orig safety lug of the M98 action. The orig locking lugs are gone for the conversion and in 12ga the large dia necessitates that they be machined away.
The M98 safety lug seems to be fine as a lockinglug.
Most US made bolt action shotguns from the 40's-70's use nothing more. Usually the staked into place bolt handle shank in a cut in the recv'r as a locking lug is common.

The 16 and 20ga Mauser conversions leave a little of the orig locking lugs in place both the bolt and the recv'r. The 20ga the most of course.
That may appear to be a stronger set up but usually the lugs bear little or not at all on each other after the conversion is done. So that safety lug is it once again.

The magazine has an interupter installed to hold the second shot in the mag and also down. Bolt manipulation kicks the interupter upon ejection of the first round and allows the second to rise and then be push fed into the chamber.

Max pressure limits for 12ga (SAAMI) 2 3/4" lead shot load is 11,500psi
16ga is 11,500psi
20ga is 12,000psi

Max pressure 12ga 2 3/4 rifled slug load (5/8oz to a 1 1/4oz) is 11,500psi
16ga slug is 11,500psi
20ga slug is 12,000psi

You can see that the lead shot loads and the rifled slug loads are the same as far as breech pressure,,and that would make sense from a liability standpoint.

The 20ga does work at a higher pressure and that is well known.
The 28 and 410 even higher.

Wether the M98 shotgun conversions are set to handle these modern pressures,,I don't know.
The chambers in them are generally short at 65mm as opposed to the modern standard of 70mm (2 3/4".
Most all of them around have probably been fed a diet of off the shelf ammo and most of that being 2 3/4".

Personally, I'd gladly buy another if I could replicate the nice one I had with the commercial style stock and not the re-purposed Military wood. That was a nice one.
Looks like the one in the pic is of the same style,,side panels and all.

I reload 12 and 20ga already and w/low pressure loads for vintage shotguns. That is what I'd use in it, not over the counter stuff that is purposely loaded to the max to make sure plastic stocked titanium bolt autoloaders work everytime.
I load 3/4oz loads in 12ga now and the published pressure data on the load is right at 6000psi,,vel is 1120fps.
That suits me just fine at skeet and SC and I think the Mauser shotguns would do very nicely with it too.


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sbs470
.333 member


Reged: 15/04/04
Posts: 301
Loc: Sheffield Tasmania
Re: 12/65 shotgun built on 98 system [Re: 2152hq]
      #320619 - 13/10/18 07:32 PM

I was at Lodi range Wisconsin in 2008. A guy had one there .He put a couple of high power slugs through it and managed to split the stock. He said he only had a hundred dollars in it and wasn't worried .A shame really .I don't know what happened to it after that, maybe some one restocked it.

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Rolf
.333 member


Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 343
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: 12/65 shotgun built on 98 system [Re: sbs470]
      #320691 - 17/10/18 11:19 PM

Gentlemen,

thank you for your comments and information!

I need a little bit more time for the photos, but will deliver!

best regards
Rolf


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