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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: eagle27]
      #319849 - 14/09/18 10:09 PM

Quote:


A cattle beast can be dropped on the spot with 22RF or as I have done with a 455 Webley revolver, if brained or spine shot in the neck. With respect, where your buff was hit with the 150gr 308 Hydro is more pertinent to the pros and cons of cartridge and bullet performance.




More or less true. Buffalo and cattle have been killed with all sorts of calibres and cartridges.

But how many wild cattle, or wild buffalo have been shot with a .22 RF in your actual experience? And not when captured in cattle yards. Also was the "cattle beast" dropped with a .455 Webley revolver a wild "cattle beast" in the field or ? (BTW not saying it wasn't, just asking for clarification. Cattle are often killed with a .22 in the yards as killers ie meat.)

Orion who I took up to the NT for a buff hunt, wanted to use his "new" 6.5x54 MS on water buffalo. No problems.

On the other hand, one of our Top End experienced resident members also used to use his 6.5mm, but I noticed he didn't anymore several years ago. I asked him why. And the reason, is things don't always go perfectly. Wild scrub bulls, water buffalo, cape buffalo, banteng, can all be killed with medium calibre rifles will appropriate shots. But shots do not always go perfectly. And a wounded beast is a different animal from the one grazing unconcerned. And is the guy with a revolver, or a 6.5mm going to follow up a wounded bull into the high grass? That is when one NEEDS a bigger rifle, if for confidence alone. My opiinion.

Some people online talk such crap, "a .308 is more than adequate for buffalo". Often based on shooting a bull or two out of the window of a Landcruiser. And I KNOW if a wounded beast runs away, these same guys if asked, did they finish it off, reply "Who gives a ffff about it!!!" Information on the internet is often incomplete and "coloured" by what people want to say, not the whole story.

A bit off topic. But back to topic of full metal jackets. While they weren't hydros, on the recent water buffalo hunt, the buffalo were extremely wary. Can explain in a later and different thread. So decided to load up the second barrel of the Jeffery .450 with a 480 gr RN FMJ. As I suspected the only shot I might get was an animal running away. The RN SPs usually won't penetrate end on end, but the FMJs usually do. A rear end FMJ will drop the animal and allow the second barrel to be used to finish the beast.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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Ripp
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #319851 - 14/09/18 10:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:


A cattle beast can be dropped on the spot with 22RF or as I have done with a 455 Webley revolver, if brained or spine shot in the neck. With respect, where your buff was hit with the 150gr 308 Hydro is more pertinent to the pros and cons of cartridge and bullet performance.




More or less true. Buffalo and cattle have been killed with all sorts of calibres and cartridges.

But how many wild cattle, or wild buffalo have been shot with a .22 RF in your actual experience? And not when captured in cattle yards. Also was the "cattle beast" dropped with a .455 Webley revolver a wild "cattle beast" in the field or ? (BTW not saying it wasn't, just asking for clarification. Cattle are often killed with a .22 in the yards as killers ie meat.)

Orion who I took up to the NT for a buff hunt, wanted to use his "new" 6.5x54 MS on water buffalo. No problems.

On the other hand, one of our Top End experienced resident members also used to use his 6.5mm, but I noticed he didn't anymore several years ago. I asked him why. And the reason, is things don't always go perfectly. Wild scrub bulls, water buffalo, cape buffalo, banteng, can all be killed with medium calibre rifles will appropriate shots. But shots do not always go perfectly. And a wounded beast is a different animal from the one grazing unconcerned. And is the guy with a revolver, or a 6.5mm going to follow up a wounded bull into the high grass? That is when one NEEDS a bigger rifle, if for confidence alone. My opiinion.

Some people online talk such crap, "a .308 is more than adequate for buffalo". Often based on shooting a bull or two out of the window of a Landcruiser. And I KNOW if a wounded beast runs away, these same guys if asked, did they finish it off, reply "Who gives a ffff about it!!!" Information on the internet is often incomplete and "coloured" by what people want to say, not the whole story.

A bit off topic. But back to topic of full metal jackets. While they weren't hydros, on the recent water buffalo hunt, the buffalo were extremely wary. Can explain in a later and different thread. So decided to load up the second barrel of the Jeffery .450 with a 480 gr RN FMJ. As I suspected the only shot I might get was an animal running away. The RN SPs usually won't penetrate end on end, but the FMJs usually do. A rear end FMJ will drop the animal and allow the second barrel to be used to finish the beast.




Exactly --we used a .22 rimfire all the time on the farm to butcher the fed steer, pigs, etc..however there is no way I would want to try that feat on a wild animal at a distance over 50 yards..hell, probably not over 20 for that matter..

AS to the solids, have not used these but did use Barnes solids in my .416 during buffalo hunts in Africa..they did indeed have complete pass through's on a buff bull running away..at least 2 of the 3 did..we found one under the neck just behind the head..still have that bullet..could probably be reloaded and used again if needed..

--------------------
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eagle27
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Ripp]
      #319863 - 15/09/18 11:20 AM

Hey guys I wasn't promoting the use of a 22Rf or 455 Webley as suitable cartridges to take on large game but just pointing out they these sort of cartridges are quite capable of dropping a cattle beast or buffalo if using a bullet that will penetrate to the brain or neck. In the hands of a good shot a 22RF solid would possibly be capable of doing this at the 45m range that Mick shot using a 308 150gr Hydro. My question was that to get a comparison of bullet performance you need you know where the bullet was placed.
The fact that Mick dropped his buffalo on the spot at 45m with a Hydro doesn't tell us much as we don't know where he hit the beast. Iím assuming for a DRT shot he must have done a brain or spine shot? Most any bullet will do that.

BTW the cattle beast I shot with my Webley using a cast 250gr at about 650fps had a broken leg and was standing quietly 3 or 4 metres away in a river bed. I head shot it dropping it on the spot. Although I shot a few goats and a couple of red deer with the Webley, I would no more promote it as a buffalo cartridge than a 22RF when hunting in the wild but both are capable of dropping a large beast under the right circumstances with the right shot.

To give the Webley itís due I would take some comfort from having it on the hip in case anything ever went wrong when hunting dangerous animals, certainly for cats and buffalo if you can get a head or neck shot at close range the 455 Webley is more than capable of turning their lights out, better than a knife.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: eagle27]
      #319864 - 15/09/18 03:21 PM

Quote:

Hey guys I wasn't promoting the use of a 22Rf or 455 Webley as suitable cartridges to take on large game but just pointing out they these sort of cartridges are quite capable of dropping a cattle beast or buffalo if using a bullet that will penetrate to the brain or neck. In the hands of a good shot a 22RF solid would possibly be capable of doing this at the 45m range that Mick shot using a 308 150gr Hydro. My question was that to get a comparison of bullet performance you need you know where the bullet was placed.
The fact that Mick dropped his buffalo on the spot at 45m with a Hydro doesn't tell us much as we don't know where he hit the beast. Iím assuming for a DRT shot he must have done a brain or spine shot? Most any bullet will do that.




Thanks for the reply. True your comment. Most reasonable bullets can be used for a brain shot if the bullet can be put in the right place. A .22RF on a spine shot though? And what works in cattle yards isn't true for the hunting fields. I remember my first water buffalo. When it was down and trying to rise yet again with a broken shoulder and I shot it in the head and "brain" with a 480 gr Woodleigh FMJ RN and it went down dead ... stunned ... another bullet an inch away and it was dead. Two holes in the headskin very close together. But when skinned, only one hole in the skull. The other bullet must have ricocheted off the skull, perhaps a last second change in angle of the head? No idea. Seems impossible. No doubt a magical hydro would have penetrated the length of the beast and came out the tip of its tail. There is a rule, shit happens in the field sometimes.


Quote:

BTW the cattle beast I shot with my Webley using a cast 250gr at about 650fps had a broken leg and was standing quietly 3 or 4 metres away in a river bed. I head shot it dropping it on the spot. Although I shot a few goats and a couple of red deer with the Webley, I would no more promote it as a buffalo cartridge than a 22RF when hunting in the wild but both are capable of dropping a large beast under the right circumstances with the right shot.

To give the Webley itís due I would take some comfort from having it on the hip in case anything ever went wrong when hunting dangerous animals, certainly for cats and buffalo if you can get a head or neck shot at close range the 455 Webley is more than capable of turning their lights out, better than a knife.




Quote:

To give the Webley itís due I would take some comfort from having it on the hip in case anything ever went wrong when hunting dangerous animals




And also useful when wrestlings with a salty croc when filling the water bucket!

I wish! Maybe the last for a selected few in the NT but for the rest of us mortals in Australia, only a dream.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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500Boswell
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #319873 - 16/09/18 08:40 AM

I have an open mind towards them ,never used them ,the cost of a lot of these projs ,including some American brass Barnes @ $4.00 plus each is getting expensive ,ok if you are on an expensive safari ,I shot a buffalo with a Bertram 750 gr 577 bullet soft point ,entered the front inside shoulder exited at the pelvis ,about 4 feet ,was impressed with that . Would be interesting to see how they perform in 500 cals and up ,possibly the best dangerous game proj

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Postman
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #319894 - 17/09/18 10:15 PM

When one spends $30k USD or more on a DG hunt, the cost of the bullet is immaterial. Nor is there such a thing as a ďmagicĒ bullet, pardon the pun. Use a premium grade bullet that YOU have confidence in. I perforated my first buffalo with 7 shots from a .500NE using Barnes banded solids before it tipped over. 5 of the 7 shots were placed in the vitals. For me, Iíd use the banded solids again without reservations, but Iím very game to try the Hydros on my next DG hunt. Both Hydros and Barnes shoot quite accurately and function well in my DG rifles. Iím sure either will do quite well on game so it comes down to which of the two is available at the ammo store when I need to replenish the supplies. Availability can be challenging at times depending upon which country you call home.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #320049 - 25/09/18 04:15 AM

Quote:

I shot a buffalo with a Bertram 750 gr 577 bullet soft point ,entered the front inside shoulder exited at the pelvis ,about 4 feet ,was impressed with that .




Interesting when 'everyone' claims the Bertram SP bullets are rubbish and only good for target shooting. Interesting to see your comment on performance on a buffalo in that example.

A .577 bullet, and a 750 gr bullet, of any reasonable kind might be big enough to do serious damage though. But interesting.

The only Bertram bullets I have on hand are 180 gr .330 calibre projectiles for a future .318 Westley Richards. Not rifle yet though!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rule303
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #320065 - 25/09/18 01:53 PM

John if you have never tried the Hydros why the hostility towards them? If the hostility is not meant I apologize but your post comes across that way. Who gets them for free?

Me,I have used them and conventional solids. Very few conventional solids but have found the hydro does a better job on the pigs I have shot with both. Once again a limited number, so small sample size. I have also read (Not only on the net) of conventional solids veering off course- not often but it does happen- so far have not seen or heard of a Hydro doing this or a Flat metplate monometal bullet. Not saying it can not happen just I have not seen or heard of it.

I am surprised by the penetration of the Bertram bullet as Bruce Bertram told me his soft nose - we were talking .416 - were alright for cattle but not as hard as the Woodleighs Weldcores and recommended a better soft nose than his for heavy boned and thick skinned animals. I can say Bruce's .416 soft nose work well on Camels.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Rule303]
      #320111 - 27/09/18 10:44 AM

Mate,

Because you specifically asked. Wasn't going to comment on hydros any more. For a while at least.

If people want to shoot them, do so.

But my opinion, they are just an expensive solid.

A compromise projectile which is lesser IMO than a convential FMJ, and nowhere near as effective as a good controlled expanding soft point.

Main purpose IMO is for jurisdictions where lead core bullets are banned.

Lots of hype about them. Some of it contrived.

Don't see any point in using a solid on medium game. Except maybe some people might want to, to reduce meat damage, or fur damage.

If people want to do it, of course its up to them.


Quote:

Once again a limited number, so small sample size. I have also read (Not only on the net) of conventional solids veering off course- not often but it does happen- so far have not seen or heard of a Hydro doing this or a Flat metplate monometal bullet. Not saying it can not happen just I have not seen or heard of it.




I am not a physicist, but I don't see why a flat or cupped front is less likely to veer than a round nose. In front logically a square front is more likely to veer in physics I think. As for personal experiences, lots of people don't report bad experiences. Round noses have been used since bullets were invented. and are also far more common. Sample size in controlled examples may not be large enough or representative.

Again not a physicist, but the "bubble" claim to me reads like BS.

Also some logical paradoxes here. Claims of a "bubble" creating a wider wound channel. But also claims of wundebarr penetration. Wider wound channels mean more friction and resistance. Deeper penetration means less resistance. Huh??

But of course a solid will penetrate well, compared to a expanding bullet.

Maybe one day I will do my own controlled comparision test on gel just for the sake of it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (27/09/18 11:06 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Rule303]
      #320112 - 27/09/18 11:02 AM

Quote:

I am surprised by the penetration of the Bertram bullet as Bruce Bertram told me his soft nose - we were talking .416 - were alright for cattle but not as hard as the Woodleighs Weldcores and recommended a better soft nose than his for heavy boned and thick skinned animals. I can say Bruce's .416 soft nose work well on Camels.




I think I will use some of Bruce's bullets more. I want to do more target shooting with my big bores, and much desire to reduce the costs. Don't need a controlled expansion projectile for paper targets. Or for medium game most of the time, if using a big bore rifle. As long as the Bertram projectiles can use the same loads.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rule303
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #320125 - 27/09/18 06:31 PM

John, the bubble has been proven to exist at least on the flat metplate solids and I believe the Hydros where tested to ascertain this-I could be wrong. The bubble is what starts to force the flesh apart, this helps reduce surface friction and aids penetration and produces a wider wound channel. The wider wound channel is caused by displaced air and liquid so less friction. From what I have seen myself the Hydro produces more damage with the the wound channel than a round nose solid.

Re solids deviating. I have been told of conventional round nose solids deviating by those it has happened to as well as written examples. I have not heard or read of any of this from those using Hydros and Metplate monometals or conventional metplate solids.

Yes a good soft nose is better than a hydro etc where a soft should be used, no argument there. I believe I said this early in the piece. How ever I believe the Hydro is a better than a conventional solid if a soft nose is required and not available. The Hydros are a solid, not a soft point replacement for those jurisdictions that don't allow lead core bullets. Barnes, Impala, Northforks etc are the replacements for cup & core bullets.

I say use what ever you like.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Rule303]
      #320130 - 27/09/18 08:52 PM

Here is a video of the principals behind the Hydro bullet. It is a Woodleigh promotional video so whether you believe it or not is up to the viewer. It discusses the cavitation bubble. Anyway here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN9y6YvTUYk

AS far as deflection in game goes it has been proven years ago that a Meplat on the front of the bullet reduces deflection significantly, one of the reasons many big game bullets are designed in such a way.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #320131 - 27/09/18 09:00 PM

I use Bertram bullets for all my shooting at the BGRC and find them fantastic. Well priced, accurate and with absolute minimal barrel fowling. The only problem is that there is not a huge range, just the main weights and sizes eg. in 375 they only make a 300 grain and no 270 grain which would be ideal for the 9.5x57 and 375NE. Still, I have found that with the same powder charge you can switch between Woodleigh's for hunting and the Bertram bullets for target with no change in point of impact, at least over 100 yards which is as far as we shoot at the BGRC. Bruce is also an extremely nice chap as his son who does a lot of the work these days.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Rule303
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #320142 - 28/09/18 07:14 AM

Quote:

I use Bertram bullets for all my shooting at the BGRC and find them fantastic. Well priced, accurate and with absolute minimal barrel fowling. The only problem is that there is not a huge range, just the main weights and sizes eg. in 375 they only make a 300 grain and no 270 grain which would be ideal for the 9.5x57 and 375NE. Still, I have found that with the same powder charge you can switch between Woodleigh's for hunting and the Bertram bullets for target with no change in point of impact, at least over 100 yards which is as far as we shoot at the BGRC. Bruce is also an extremely nice chap as his son who does a lot of the work these days.

Matt.




Matt, I to have found the same inter changeability with the Woodleighs and Bertram bullets in the 416.

having watched the video I see that Woodleigh do promote the Hydros as a soft nose alternative in areas where lead is banned.

Edited by Rule303 (28/09/18 07:31 AM)


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Postman
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Rule303]
      #320165 - 28/09/18 09:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I use Bertram bullets for all my shooting at the BGRC and find them fantastic. Well priced, accurate and with absolute minimal barrel fowling. The only problem is that there is not a huge range, just the main weights and sizes eg. in 375 they only make a 300 grain and no 270 grain which would be ideal for the 9.5x57 and 375NE. Still, I have found that with the same powder charge you can switch between Woodleigh's for hunting and the Bertram bullets for target with no change in point of impact, at least over 100 yards which is as far as we shoot at the BGRC. Bruce is also an extremely nice chap as his son who does a lot of the work these days.

Matt.




Matt, I to have found the same inter changeability with the Woodleighs and Bertram bullets in the 416.

having watched the video I see that Woodleigh do promote the Hydros as a soft nose alternative in areas where lead is banned.




That advertising angle smells a bit off...... Sure it may be Woodleighís alternative, but I can tell you, all solids are illegal here in Ontario for hunting big game. Unless the Woodleighs can be shown to expand, they are a solid and thus illegal for big game use in this jurisdiction. Woodleigh doesnít have a monometal expanding bullet, plain and simple, so it sounds lik a case of advertising ďgo with what you gotĒ....... truth in advertising???? Ha!!!!!


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