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Gundog01
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A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific.
      #319563 - 02/09/18 09:25 PM

I have a Daniel Fraser that is a .360 Takedown made for Holland & Holland.

It is marked .360 EX. I am trying to determine what cartridge this is so I can load for it. So far I have been told that it is the .360 2-1/4 which does not make any sense, here is why:

From reading the Daniel Fraser book by Kirton, he claims that the .360 loaded by Fraser was his loading for the 9.3x57.

In orignal Fraser catalogs, Daniel Fraser is quoted as saying the .360 is the only suitable big bore/big game cartridge for a Mauser due to handling characteristics and weight. Alluding that it was indeed a big game cartridge and not the .360 2-1/4 which was a Antelope cartridge.

Bell when he was in the Yukon shot something of 1000 moose with a Fraser in .360, once again making the case that it is indeed the 9.3x57 load and not the 1/4.

The gun is also marked for 35 grans of cordite, where 30 grains was the load for the .360 2-1/4 also nullifying that as well.

Any opinions would be appreciated. Pictures of the markings can be seen in the post linked below.


http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316604&an=0&page=0#Post316604


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MikeRowe
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Gundog01]
      #319564 - 02/09/18 10:29 PM

Have you done a chamber cast?
You should be able to look in the barrel and see if the chamber has a shoulder, or not.


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Huvius
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: MikeRowe]
      #319567 - 02/09/18 11:20 PM

I think you are right about the 9.3X57.
Fraser often had his own loads for a particular cartridge loaded with his patent ratchet bullet which is nothing more than a jacketed bullet with angled slits cut into it.
Of course, Mike is right. A chamber cast will clear that up easily and being a takedown, there is not a simpler chamber to take a cast of. If you don't have any cerrosafe, use a hot glue gun or even wax for the cast - that will give you enough information for an ID.

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tinker
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Huvius]
      #319580 - 03/09/18 10:47 AM

35 grains cordite and Max bullet weight at 300 grains

For 9.3x57 the 285 grain load would have made what, about 2150-2200 fps?
Should do fine.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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paradox_
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: tinker]
      #319581 - 03/09/18 11:11 AM

Cast the chamber and slug the bore....problem solved

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Rothhammer1
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: paradox_]
      #319588 - 03/09/18 06:08 PM

From the 1939 Stoeger:





Note the .360 Nitro Express load of 30 grains Cordite, 300 grain bullet.

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Gundog01
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #319591 - 03/09/18 10:09 PM

Quote:

From the 1939 Stoeger:





Note the .360 Nitro Express load of 30 grains Cordite, 300 grain bullet.




Update:

I tried to chamber an old 9mm MS Kynoch that I had laying around, I assume its the 9x57MS, It did not chamber.

But being 35 grains of cordite, could it just be a Fraser load for a hot .360 Nitro round?

I have ordered chamber casting materials and hope to have it done in the next two days as soon as I get it.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Gundog01]
      #319595 - 04/09/18 12:52 AM

I've never dealt with .360 or 9.3 myself, but am familiar with and have reloaded for the 9.5X57 MS.

From what I've just seen poking around on the 'net, there seem to be several 9.3's.

You 'threw me' for a bit with "9X57 MS". The 9mm Mannlicher Schönauer cartridge was 9X56 (for the M1905), not x57. The 'X57' MS was the 9.5X57 (.375 Nitro Express Rimless 2.25") for the M1910 which is at times referred to as 9.5X56 or 9.5X56.7 just to confuse things further.



Here are some Mauser specs, including the 9X57:



A link to previous discussion among members regarding the 9X57 Mauser, 9X56 MS, 9.3X57:

NE Forum

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Gundog01
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #319596 - 04/09/18 01:46 AM

Thank you for all the info guys, there also was a 400/360 Fraser. Which I guess could make sense. I will let you know the results of the chamber cast.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Gundog01]
      #319597 - 04/09/18 02:29 AM

Quote:

Thank you for all the info guys, there also was a 400/360 Fraser. Which I guess could make sense. I will let you know the results of the chamber cast.




Silly question, I suppose, but yours does take a rimless case? Several of the .360 cartridges listed are rimmed and some are for black powder.

Here's a link to some .400/.360 info: Cartridge Collector They are rimmed cases, but then there's this: Cartridge Collector

The site has info on other .360 cartridges there as well.

You may find this to be of interest: Fraser .360 Takedown Mauser



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tinker
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #319599 - 04/09/18 03:42 AM

By the looks of the magazine box and the clip slot, I doubt the twin if this rifle shown via that link is set up for a rimmed cartridge.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Rothhammer1
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: tinker]
      #319601 - 04/09/18 04:13 AM

Quote:

By the looks of the magazine box and the clip slot, I doubt the twin if this rifle shown via that link is set up for a rimmed cartridge.




That's what I was thinking (and that he'd tried a 9X57). It seems that most of the .360 are rimmed cartridges, so they'd be easy to rule out.

It could be this - .360 Westley Richards Rimless Nitro Express, introduced in 1912 for magazine fed bolt rifles.



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Rothhammer1
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Gundog01]
      #319602 - 04/09/18 05:10 AM

Quote:

I have a Daniel Fraser that is a .360 Takedown made for Holland & Holland.

It is marked .360 EX. I am trying to determine what cartridge this is so I can load for it. ...

From reading the Daniel Fraser book by Kirton, he claims that the .360 loaded by Fraser was his loading for the 9.3x57.

In orignal Fraser catalogs, Daniel Fraser is quoted as saying the .360 is the only suitable big bore/big game cartridge for a Mauser due to handling characteristics and weight. Alluding that it was indeed a big game cartridge and not the .360 2-1/4 which was a Antelope cartridge. ...

The gun is also marked for 35 grans of cordite, where 30 grains was the load for the .360 2-1/4 also nullifying that as well.




Have you researched the Fraser Velox (or 'ratchet')? I see that Huvius mentioned them above. Here is an image of one in .303, I don't know if there was a .360 Velox. It seems the Kirton book may be the place to find out.



A previous 'Velox' discussion : NitroExpressForums

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Huvius
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #319608 - 04/09/18 10:34 AM

Of interest to me is the chart above.
I recently acquired a Mauser TypeB in 9x57 and had another earlier that I never shot as I was of the understanding that it was a ho-hum cartridge.
According to the chart above, it is right on par with the 318 Westley Richards!
Now I can’t wait to get it to the range!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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MikeRowe
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Huvius]
      #319610 - 04/09/18 11:03 AM

I have a Fraser .360 x 2 1/4" NE round in my collection, loaded with Fraser's Oblique Ratchet Bullet.
The bullet has a large exposed soft point, which has a small wax filled hollow point, and the six oblique slits in the envelope. It weighs 294 1/2 grains, and was probably a 300 until the hollow point and slits were made. The slits will drop about two grains off the bullet weight, I know this having done a lot of them with a special fixture I built to do the job. Unfortunately, I have no record of the cordite charge weight from this particular cartridge.
Performance on deer sized game with Fraser's bullet at the moderate velocities these cartridges generate can best be described as spectacular. I killed a buck last year with a 400/360 Fraser single shot, using a PRVI 285 grain bullet "doctored" as described above. At 35 yards, the deer dropped on the spot, and the exit wound was 2 1/2" across. I fired an unmodified bullet at the same range to finish him, and there was no expansion in 15" of penetration.


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Rothhammer1
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Huvius]
      #319612 - 04/09/18 03:55 PM

Quote:

Of interest to me is the chart above.
I recently acquired a Mauser TypeB in 9x57 and had another earlier that I never shot as I was of the understanding that it was a ho-hum cartridge.
According to the chart above, it is right on par with the 318 Westley Richards!
Now I can’t wait to get it to the range!




I've just posted some 9X57 stuff from the '39 Stoeger on a new thread.

It's titled 9X57 Mauser.

Enjoy!

--------------------
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Gen_Hicks
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Huvius]
      #319621 - 04/09/18 10:52 PM

Quote:

Of interest to me is the chart above.
I recently acquired a Mauser TypeB in 9x57 and had another earlier that I never shot as I was of the understanding that it was a ho-hum cartridge.
According to the chart above, it is right on par with the 318 Westley Richards!
Now I can’t wait to get it to the range!





Its about 200 fps slower than the 318. I really like the 9x57


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yumastepside
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: Gen_Hicks]
      #319659 - 07/09/18 08:42 AM

I also have a question about the Fraser take-downs......The latch under the fore-end, does it operate the pin into the action/butt-stock or the attachment to the barrel, or both?

My second question....does someone have a Fraser rifle in 7x57 and could they give me some dimensions of the barrel?

and finally.....how are the bolt handles attached? There appears to be a joint at the root of the bolt and handle, are they pinned, screwed, all of the above ??

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

Edited by yumastepside (07/09/18 09:00 AM)


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MikeRowe
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: yumastepside]
      #319661 - 07/09/18 09:40 AM

Most Fraser rifles (both magazine and single shot) have a Deeley and Edge latch to attach the fore end. The barrel screws into the receiver, and is held secure by either a taper pin or a lever operated threaded stud in the single shot; the magazine rifles have a thumbscrew on the left side of the receiver.
Bolt handles are pinned and brazed on.


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yumastepside
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: MikeRowe]
      #319665 - 07/09/18 12:03 PM

Thanks Mike, in the pictures of the guns in Gundog's link, there is a close-up pic of the barrel shank/thread, the rear sight and the fore-stock of the take-down which shows a pin protruding from the end of the fore-stock...is this " locating " pin spring loaded ?



Roger

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yumastepside
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: yumastepside]
      #319724 - 10/09/18 07:02 AM

.....can anyone answer my question about the pin in the end of the Fraser fore-stock ?

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.


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kuduae
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: yumastepside]
      #319726 - 10/09/18 07:55 AM


Quote:

.....can anyone answer my question about the pin in the end of the Fraser fore-stock ?

Roger



It's the original locking pin. It locks the foreend-barrel assembly in the correct position when the barrel is screwed into the receiver. A "Deeley"-type latch retracts it into the foreend to allow the barrel to unscrew from the receiver. Someone later added an additional clamping screw in the left side of the receiver ring to take up any looseness that developed over the years. Follow the link http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316604&an=0&page=0#Post316604 posted above and scroll down for the pics.


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MikeRowe
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: kuduae]
      #319727 - 10/09/18 08:29 AM

The pin you see in the picture locates the fore end in correct relationship to the plate screwed to the front of the stock below the front edge of the receiver ring. I have never seen one where the pin retracts. The Fraser fore end is completely removed from the rifle, before the barrel is unscrewed.

The locating screw in the side of the receiver ring, I believe, is original to the rifle. Every one I have examined has one, and they are all of a similar appearance.


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yumastepside
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: MikeRowe]
      #319730 - 10/09/18 10:14 AM

OK, maybe I'm missing something here....if the Deeley latch retracts the pin in the end of the fore-stock, my question should be....what holds the fore-stock to the barrel?...does the latch do both?....are there separate fore-stock to barrel attachment and fore-stock to action location mechanisms.... or, again, does the latch do both?

Does anyone have a pic of the inside of one of these fore-ends removed from the barrel ?



....to me, the location pin ( detent ) would be spring loaded and the Deeley attaches the fore-end to the barrel ?

confusedly yours

Roger

Edited by yumastepside (10/09/18 11:38 AM)


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MikeRowe
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Re: A question for the Daniel Fraser experts. Caliber specific. [Re: yumastepside]
      #319758 - 11/09/18 09:22 AM

The Deeley and Edge latch holds the fore end on to the barrel. There's nothing to be gained from having a retracting pin. It works just like a shotgun fore end.

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