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tinker
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7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these?
      #317668 - 02/07/18 04:05 AM

Writing from High Desert in Northern Nevada - but I'm asking in this particular subforum as you South Pacific fellows tend to use a lot of the Woodleigh bullets on all sorts of game.

This 140gr Hydro, has anyone used these on large game?
If so, what game and how did they do?
Asian Buffalo..?

What cartridge?
Has anyone loaded these to original 7x57 velocities?
Do they need magnum velocity to operate properly?



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Rule303
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: tinker]
      #317671 - 02/07/18 08:32 AM

Tinker I have not used the Hydros in 7mm. I have used them in 300SAUM, 303, 35Sambar and 35Whelen and 416Rigby. The only DG I have used them on are the 416 for Buff and El and Camel. The rest I have only used on pigs, not that I would hesitate to use them on anything that walks if that is all I had, brain shots or spinal shots in the main on Ele and Buff. Yes they do work that well. Generally speaking the faster they go the better they work.

The 303 only come in 215 grain and a MV of 2200fps. Still at 60mts in one end and out the other of a 50-60kg pig. Not a big pig but I doubt you would get that result from another type of bullet at that weight and velocity. Not that I have shot a lot of game with them but the 416 went clean through a camel (Side shot), Elephants head. Recovered the one from the Cape Buff as it went in the front of the chest and stopped about 2" from the skin in the rump and this included going through bone.

One bloke I know have used the 150 out of a 300Weatherby and it passed through a 2" tree and still went clean through the pig. Range was about 50 to 60 mts. Happens when you shoot at running game in timbered areas.

I believe one of the PH in the Northern Territory now only uses Hydros in his and his guides rifles when in buff areas.

I rate them as a solid that when a soft point is the best option they are not to far behind. As a solid they are far better than the round nose solids and I am not aware of one that has not tracked straight no matter what it has hit in or out of the animal.

Edited by Rule303 (02/07/18 08:47 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Rule303]
      #317687 - 02/07/18 11:51 PM

Quote:



I rate them as a solid that when a soft point is the best option they are not to far behind. As a solid they are far better than the round nose solids and I am not aware of one that has not tracked straight no matter what it has hit in or out of the animal.




Why are they better than real solids?

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Rule303
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #317714 - 03/07/18 05:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:



I rate them as a solid that when a soft point is the best option they are not to far behind. As a solid they are far better than the round nose solids and I am not aware of one that has not tracked straight no matter what it has hit in or out of the animal.




Why are they better than real solids?




I do not know why - the physics - but they are.

Opps. John in case you meant effect on the animal, the Hydros do more damage than a round nose solid. Flat metplat solids are more effective than round nose solids and some can penetrate further than Hydros, so I am told. However I have never tried flat metplat solids so I don't know if they do the internal damage to soft tissue the hydros do.

Edited by Rule303 (03/07/18 06:06 PM)


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Dr_Deer
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Rule303]
      #318961 - 10/08/18 09:08 AM

Hydro are more of a cup point than flat meplat, and I believe a bit of work went in to getting the meplat the right % of bullet diameter for tissue disruption vs penetration.
From discussions with Geoff the faster the better, so light for calibre at max speed = soft, heavy for calibre at traditional = solid.

Saying that I have a box full of tipped 400g .458s that I should be able to get up to 2100 in my Blaser, but I'm still left pondering if I only want to take 1 load on my next trip for buff I'd be better off with the 325g at 2300. Has anyone here used the Hydros out of a .45/70 on buff?


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tinker
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #318965 - 10/08/18 11:36 AM

I would have to confirm via my notes, but I'm getting somewhere between 2550 and 2700 with Barnes TSX 350gr bullets in the 458 Winchester

You should be able to get much more speed than 2300 with a 325 - that's if you have a proper 458 Winchester throat.

Or not.

--------------------
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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tophet1
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: tinker]
      #318975 - 10/08/18 06:14 PM

I have never loaded the Hydro but have extensive experience with the 7x57. Stick to a conventional 140. Any kind of premium at 7x57 needs to be used at very close range to get any kind of consistent performance.

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tinker
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: tophet1]
      #318983 - 11/08/18 12:51 AM

Quote:

I have never loaded the Hydro but have extensive experience with the 7x57. Stick to a conventional 140. Any kind of premium at 7x57 needs to be used at very close range to get any kind of consistent performance.





Have you seen the Nosler *Accubond Long Range* bullet in your area?
They are designed to operate at lower velocity than most every other high-BC premium bullet.
I haven't hit game with one yet, but I have tested them in an accurate single shot pistol while in load development. They fly flatter and maintain energy better than the shorter, lower BC conventional bullets. From field reports they appear to do well on game at impact speeds well below the typical bonded bullet threshold.

They look like a good choice for the lower energy cartridges.
In my 7-30 Waters 14" pistol the 150 is supersonic to 1000 yards.
Great for banging steel on the range.
More than plenty of energy inside a common 300 yard hunting range.

--------------------
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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Dr_Deer
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: tinker]
      #318991 - 11/08/18 09:27 AM

Quote:

I would have to confirm via my notes, but I'm getting somewhere between 2550 and 2700 with Barnes TSX 350gr bullets in the 458 Winchester

You should be able to get much more speed than 2300 with a 325 - that's if you have a proper 458 Winchester throat.

Or not.




It's a Blaser, not a Win Mag. Original factory load was 350g at 2000 for driven boar with the same recoil as a 9,3x62. 400g at 2100 could be considered hot rodding but it works

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/45-blaser-115-x-55


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: tophet1]
      #319490 - 31/08/18 03:17 AM

Quote:

I have never loaded the Hydro but have extensive experience with the 7x57. Stick to a conventional 140.




Absolutely!

Lots of hype on the Woodleigh Hydros. If Geoff would send me free packets of bullets as well, then I might write endless forums posts on them as well ...

As for the question of using a 7x57 on eg buffalo. In theory and in practice, there is no reason it will not be effective, 95% of the time, with careful shots and patience for the right shot and reasonable choice of projectiles. As evidence, look up the threads on Orion's hunt with me some years ago, 2005? when he proposed and did use his 6.5x54 MS on water buffalo. Two buffalo for three shots. At close range. I think he used a 140 gr Barnes X point, but I forget. And heart shots. The second bullet on the first animal was because the PH insisted. On the second buffalo he refused to shoot a second time. And after walking some steps it fell over dead.

Now as one of NE's other members informed me, when asked why he no longer used his 6.5 MS on buffalo, as suspected he said when things go wrong, the rifle is not a good choice .. and uses his .400 NE now usually instead. Or similar choices.

A 7x57 with a good 175 gr FMJ would be a better choice than a 140 gr Hyped up Hydro IMO. Just what I would choose if going this route.

For everything else, I see zero reasons for using a hydro and would always use a good 140 gr, 150 gr, 160 gr or 175 gr SP or FMJ instead.

But again if Geoff sent me packets of freebies for the endless hydro forum articles, maybe I could write glowing stories about them as well ... when the sun shines out of the ends of the apertures of the muzzles ... and a bullet which does not expand through a 'magical bubble' makes a wound channel wider than a SP which holds together and doubles its calibre or more, or over penetrates a FMJ which holds together without expansion ...

I think I do have a packet or three, I purchased years ago. Might even try them one day ... But at $4 a bullet, they would have to be made of gold !!!!

Would like to see the science/physics of the 'bubble' explained one day as well.

--------------------
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264
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #319532 - 01/09/18 03:07 PM

Reply from some one who actually uses hydros. Mine arn't hand outs either. I purchased them. Not worried about the cost as the extra penetration from the hydro can make a short follow up especially from a small for game calibre.
Heres a bull from last weekend not a 140 7x57 but a 150 308 hydro. Dropped on the spot, 45m shot.
Cheers Mick


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tinker
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: 264]
      #319538 - 01/09/18 04:40 PM

Nice!

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Daryl_S
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #319544 - 01/09/18 10:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would have to confirm via my notes, but I'm getting somewhere between 2550 and 2700 with Barnes TSX 350gr bullets in the 458 Winchester

You should be able to get much more speed than 2300 with a 325 - that's if you have a proper 458 Winchester throat.

Or not.




It's a Blaser, not a Win Mag. Original factory load was 350g at 2000 for driven boar with the same recoil as a 9,3x62. 400g at 2100 could be considered hot rodding but it works

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/45-blaser-115-x-55




Interesting round. What is the case length? My 2" .458 did 2,150 easily with 400's along with 2,296 with with 350gr. and I actually got 2,060.ps with Win. 510's. The action was a VZ M98 with 22" bl.

--------------------
Daryl


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: 264]
      #319560 - 02/09/18 09:30 AM

Good one Mick. I know a lot of people who use the Hydros on tougher game here as well as overseas and they are all say the same as you. They are very happy with them. One of the chaps who used to post here regularly (Gryphon) uses them all the time on Sambar and swears by them. Federal wouldn't sell them in their Safari ammo if they didn't work.

Matt

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #319636 - 06/09/18 07:25 PM

Quote:

Good one Mick. I know a lot of people who use the Hydros on tougher game here as well as overseas and they are all say the same as you. They are very happy with them. One of the chaps who used to post here regularly (Gryphon) uses them all the time on Sambar and swears by them. Federal wouldn't sell them in their Safari ammo if they didn't work.

Matt




Yeah Gryphon's mate was the maker of the bullets for Woodleigh. At least when they first got started on the hydros. No idea of whether the mate is still the maker or if they are now made in house. No doubt JG will read these comments before long as well.

As I said I haven't used them. These sorts of projectiles were primarily designed for legal jurisdictions which ban the use of lead. Basically a FMJ bullet with FMJ bullet performance.

As I have written I would like to see a scientific analysis of the "bubble" ... reads like a load of bs to me. Over the years I have heard many theories claimed to be "fact" because someone saw something once ... not just shooting but in all sorts of fields. Very different from proven scientfic facts based on verifiable evidence using proper scientific methology and independent analysis.

Any good FMJ at a good velocity will have significant penetration. I do use the Woodleigh FMJ and have used them in 480 gr .450, 300 gr .375 and 9.3mm 286 gr. All have excellent penetration. And depending on the circumstance, have either zipped through OR left sizable wound channels. The latter can be dependent on muscle and bone encountered. As for penetration, one of my FMJs exited an elephants skull after travelling through the brain.

I have shot a water buffalo from behind too and seen it dropped as if poleaxed. Using a normal FMJ.

But if wanting a dependable wound channel, one doesn't go for a FMJ or a non expanding monometal bullet. Especially when far more dependable SPs of good construction are available.

Having just had one Top Ender resident member comment to me, who is experienced and hunts water buffalo a lot, that he didn't see what the hydros are good for, and much prefers the usual Woodleigh offerings, and his mate comment to him , "Don't say that on NE, ##### would be upset if you did ..." well that also says a lot ....

But people use what they want. Will post the Woodleigh claims next.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #319637 - 06/09/18 07:43 PM

A link to the Woodleigh page on the bullets.

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/products/hydrostatically-stabilised



Quote:



The depressed nose at the leading edge of the bullet 'cores' the medium (flesh) through which it is travelling which then creates a 'pressure ring'. The coring and pressure ring balance each other out to stabilise the bullet in the direction of travel. If the bullet hits hard bone the flesh core dissipates but immediately reforms and the balance between it and the pressure ring restabilises to redirect the bullet in the original direction of travel.

Additional benefits of this design are that the pressure ring creates a devastating wound channel and massive hydraulic shock transfer. The bullet actually travels in a low pressure cavitation bubble which aids in bullet stabilisation and greatly increases penetration due to significant reductions in frictional forces acting on the bullet (ref Fig. 1).





Can't see why the "shape" causes the effect over any other eg round nose bullet shape, as the computer graphic suggests.






Monometal Expanding


Hydrostatic


Full Metal Jacket

Three examples, one of each is not a representative sample size. Assuming the examples shown are not the 'best' examples to illustrate the desired result. Not independent.

What calibre or calibres were used? What impact velocity of each round? Were they all relatively identical? What was the bullet shape of the shown "FMJ" sample? 'Everyone' knows the military spitzer FMJ bullet shape creates extremely narrow wound channels.

Quote:

As this bullet does not rely on expansion for its killing effect, it side steps the problem of erratic expansion suffered by some other types of expanding monometal bullets.




Well it doesn't expand.

***

Ha ha, to give some ground, I have in the past 'accepted' the design may give a better wound channel than a conventional FMJ. But the laws of physics would also claim if it leaves a wider wound channel, the increased friction may also indicated lesser penetration, especially when considering the design and shape of a hydro. Claims the wound channel is better than a conventional well constructed expanding SP leave me shaking my head. In the end physics is not "brand" dependent or variable.

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John aka NitroX

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Postman
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #319644 - 06/09/18 09:45 PM

I can’t see how a Hydro would even remotely perform like an expanding bullet, but I would believe that their terminal ballistics would favor straight line penetration due to their concave “flat” nose design.

I will be using hydros on my next buffalo hunt and am very curious as to whether they offer any significant real world advantage over a flat nose monomtal such as a Barnes banded solid. In any event, I don’t use traditional ‘solids”, i.e. round nose copper clad steel cased lead bullets. My PH showed me a handful of these taditional solids that came apart, riveted, bent, and otherwise acted like errant children. The buffalo/elephant/hippo that these miscreant bullets were retrieved from all died anyway, lest the misbehaving bullets would never have been recovered, so failure in these cases is fodder for endless debate. I myself will stick with monometal solids to ensure that those bullets don’t misbehave.

Of the 7 solids I drove into my cape buffalo, only one was recovered buried deep in the soggy grass of the stomach after driving through the dewlap, heart/lungs. All the rest were passthroughs. I was using 570 grain flat nose banded solids.

Edited by Postman (06/09/18 09:46 PM)


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Postman]
      #319646 - 06/09/18 10:34 PM

John Marossi is the chap who developed the Hydro, he is a gentleman and very unassuming. He shoots regularly at our shoots and he never brags or even talks about the Hydro's unless he is asked by someone. Really nice chap.

The bullets are machined in a factory in Kylsyth Vic. which is a suburb in the East of Melbourne.

I have never used the Hydrostatic bullets so I can't comment personally however we have a huge number of hunters come in to work and the conversation invariably turns to hunting, guns, bullets etc. and many have used Hydro's and all have been very happy with the results on a variety of game. The common consensus is that they need to be driven faster than a traditional solid of the same diameter and weight for them to work at their best.

I currently use a combination of Woodleigh RNSN and Protected Point bullets in all of my guns and find them to be superb however I might buy some Hydro's and try them on Sambar deer. A lot of guys use them on Sambar and most say they work well particularly on raking shots on stags during the rut when they often have a lot of mud over their hide which is quite thick around the front of the animal, particularly when rutting.

Matt.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #319650 - 07/09/18 12:19 AM

Matt

My comment on the friendship was straight from JG's mouth.

I believe I met the creator of the Hydros way back whenever it was, at one of the Shot Shows or some similar event. At the Woodleigh stand.

Thanks for the comment on where they were made. I did believe it was not at Woodleighs. Someone in the NT told me it was at McDonald's factory only last month, so that was incorrect information. I did believe they were made elsewhere.

--------------------
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Postman
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: NitroX]
      #319658 - 07/09/18 08:11 AM

Respectfully, I don’t care about the social interactions and where / who made them, or about any political crap associated thereto.... I believe that these things will work very well as a solid and am dying with curiosity as to how the dished out nose will modify performance...... for me, the key is that they are monomtal and are of a pressure reducing “banded” design that will be kind to my expensive double rifle barrels.

On an emotional level, I feel that the Woodleigh organization has contibuted immensely to the double rilfe shooting community by providing bullets tailored specifically to double rilfes where other manufacturers have by and large abandoned us. This alone should drive some alleigance and loyalty.... I feel the same way about Hornady who brings us brass and loaded cartridges for our double rifles: Both Woodleigh and Hornady keeps us double rifle shooters “in the game”.

Edited by Postman (07/09/18 08:15 AM)


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264
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Postman]
      #319752 - 11/09/18 06:50 AM

Heres a bull taken from 40m front on entry in the neck 400gr hydro recovered near the balls. 404 jeffery Brno 602. Cheers Mick

nose flattened


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eagle27
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: 264]
      #319763 - 11/09/18 01:44 PM

Quote:

Reply from some one who actually uses hydros. Mine arn't hand outs either. I purchased them. Not worried about the cost as the extra penetration from the hydro can make a short follow up especially from a small for game calibre.
Heres a bull from last weekend not a 140 7x57 but a 150 308 hydro. Dropped on the spot, 45m shot.
Cheers Mick





A cattle beast can be dropped on the spot with 22RF or as I have done with a 455 Webley revolver, if brained or spine shot in the neck. With respect, where your buff was hit with the 150gr 308 Hydro is more pertinent to the pros and cons of cartridge and bullet performance.


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Dr_Deer
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: 264]
      #319842 - 14/09/18 04:56 PM

Quote:

Heres a bull taken from 40m front on entry in the neck 400gr hydro recovered near the balls. 404 jeffery Brno 602. Cheers Mick

nose flattened




Nice performance

Would you care to share your load (chrony?) data?

I have a mate running the capped 400g with 83g of 2209 in his Mauser M03 .404J - OAL had to be 93.3mm in order to crimp but fortunately they feed well, he just hasnt killed anything but paper yet.


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Dr_Deer
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #319843 - 14/09/18 05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would have to confirm via my notes, but I'm getting somewhere between 2550 and 2700 with Barnes TSX 350gr bullets in the 458 Winchester

You should be able to get much more speed than 2300 with a 325 - that's if you have a proper 458 Winchester throat.

Or not.




It's a Blaser, not a Win Mag. Original factory load was 350g at 2000 for driven boar with the same recoil as a 9,3x62. 400g at 2100 could be considered hot rodding but it works

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/45-blaser-115-x-55




Interesting round. What is the case length? My 2" .458 did 2,150 easily with 400's along with 2,296 with with 350gr. and I actually got 2,060.ps with Win. 510's. The action was a VZ M98 with 22" bl.




55mm case and 72mm OAL - it was initially designed to feed through 7.62 Nato mags to get a large calibre suppressed police rifle tender that they didnt get, so the internet will have you believe. I view it as a 11,2x60 Schuler with easily obtainable bullets
Currently run 54.5g of 2207 under the 400g Woodleigh PP, only 350g I've tried is the 350g RN for the 450BPE and I cant seem to get anything earth shattering in speed or performance with either 2207 or 2219 (H322), 64g of the latter under a 325g Flex tip gives 2330fps


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7mm 140 gr Hydro-Solid .284" - Who has used these? [Re: Postman]
      #319847 - 14/09/18 09:54 PM

Quote:

Respectfully, I don’t care about the social interactions and where / who made them, or about any political crap associated thereto.... I believe that these things will work very well as a solid and am dying with curiosity as to how the dished out nose will modify performance...... for me, the key is that they are monomtal and are of a pressure reducing “banded” design that will be kind to my expensive double rifle barrels.

On an emotional level, I feel that the Woodleigh organization has contibuted immensely to the double rilfe shooting community by providing bullets tailored specifically to double rilfes where other manufacturers have by and large abandoned us. This alone should drive some alleigance and loyalty.... I feel the same way about Hornady who brings us brass and loaded cartridges for our double rifles: Both Woodleigh and Hornady keeps us double rifle shooters “in the game”.




Whoppy-do ....

Myself I like to see both sides of the opinion mentioned. Not just what the bullet maker wants said ...

I use Woodleigh bullets all the time. Largely I don't see the point of the hydros, when the usual RN FMJ do the same job. At a far far better price.

Other users may see differently and choose them for various reasons. Banded bullets with lesser barrel friction. Jurisdictions which do not allow lead bullets.

And judging by the potential damage the extra hard Woodleigh FMJs may do to an expensive barrel (from a recent alleged hearsay - H&H - example), maybe a banded monometal IS a better choice as a FMJ.

But ffff it, the day I will allow alternative points of view to be bullied off these forums. The makers can easily pick up their phone and give me a ring if they want.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (14/09/18 10:13 PM)


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