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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 270
Loc: Southeast, NY
Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga
      #309697 - 31/12/17 10:19 AM

Always looking for another project on top of the other 10+ happening concurently...

A single shot 12ga came into the shop for the right price. Gun is unused and basically mint. Gun is stocked high for a shotgun, straight grip, etc.



Stole this pic from Virgil in OZ on gunboards

I was thinking that while I send some other barrels out to get rifled, I can throw that one in and have a bore rifle made of it. The barrel is .07 thick at the muzzle so it is more than thick enough.
Is that gun in that condition worth changing? (is it worth more the way that it is or do those guns have any value anyway?)

Thanks

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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Daryl_SModerator
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Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Tom_H]
      #309700 - 31/12/17 10:51 AM

Hi Tom - I would send it to Bobby Hoyte for rifling. I would also get a twist in the range of 80 or 85" with .008" to .010" deep rifling.

That way, it will shoot OK with 3 to 4 dram loads, much more comfortable than double that amount of powder that might be needed to shoot well in a slower, Forsythe style rate of twist.

Were I a younger man, I'd go with 102", or thereabouts and shallower, maybe .006" to .008" deep.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 270
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309706 - 31/12/17 11:30 AM

Thank you Daryl.

Bob Hoyte is who the other barrels are going to. Was going to do the 12ga martini with a 66 twist, .005 rifling, 7 lands. All that has to do is stabilize lightfields.
I wanted to go with an easy loader, finger started if possible. Do you recommend the shallow (.005) rifling or the .010?
Just looking for a ball gun over 120gr (100 is probably fine) of powder to keep things manageable
Thanks

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

Edited by Tom_H (31/12/17 11:59 AM)


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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 289
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Tom_H]
      #309707 - 31/12/17 12:38 PM

What are you being charged to rifle the Martini? Approximate is fine.

Why not go with a 34 or 36" twist? Lightfields seem to work very well at that twist. Slower seems like a step into the unknown?

Thanks


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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 270
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: CommandCar]
      #309734 - 01/01/18 05:49 AM

The rifling job is around 150. I chose the twist because years ago I had a barrel cut by Les Bauska in 20ga. I asked for a 66 twist and it ended up grouping Brennekes into 2.5 and Lightfields into 1.5 at 100.
If I go with a faster twist I presume that it could add to the utility with sabots but If I don't shoot full bore slugs I may go with round balls.

Thanks and Happy New Year.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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Daryl_SModerator
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Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Tom_H]
      #309740 - 01/01/18 06:40 AM

Tom, for the muzzleloader, I am sure you will find about any twist from 60" to 80" to work fine.

The faster the twist, the more "hold" you will likely need, so deeper rifling of .010", I'd recommend. At 80" to 100", shallower rifling is likely OK & will be easier loading, in that it will allow looser (thinner patch) loading, so .006 to .008" would be fine.

The placement of a wad beneath the patched ball also helps in some loads, to prevent damage to the patch by the flame, in less than tight loads.

In such a large bore, 010" is quite shallow, however with really slow rifling, like Forsyth recommended 100" and slower, you can use even shallower rifling. VERY wide grooves and narrow lands makes loading much easier.

I am sure the 66" twist will likely work well in your Martini 12 bore and being a ctg. gun shooting oversized bullets, you can get away with shallower rifling, say .006" or so. .006" might also work in the muzzleloader, I do not know for sure.

A friend has an 11 bore Getz deep groove barrel on his English gun (Purdey Style) that my Bro built him back in '86. Seems to me the rate of twist was 60" or 66". Keith would have been happier with shallower rifling, 010" to .012" as they are easier loading and do not hold fouling like the deeper grooves do.

WW balls (his preferred moose projectile) are difficult to load with a patch that goes to the bottom of the .025" rifling - which we feel is way too deep for such a large bore.

On the plus side, that rate of twist shot well from 82gr. all the way to 200gr. At 120gr., he was able to keep a ball inside a moose, rather than have them all exit. He started at 200gr., then each year, reduced the load by 20gr. For sub freezing hunting, paper ctgs. worked well, but fouled excessively compared to my 14 bore rifle. He was only able to fire 3 with good accuracy. After than, he needed to wipe out the bore before loading and shooting more. In my .012" rifling, I am able to fire 10 without loading difficulty and their accuracy ans POI matches patched round balls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 270
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309745 - 01/01/18 07:08 AM

That information is much appreciated Daryl. Nothing beats field reports. I will go with the .005, .006 for the martini and the info regarding your rifle. I really like the idea of the paper cartridge as well.

Thank you

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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CommandCar
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Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Tom_H]
      #309758 - 01/01/18 11:03 AM

Ok, but my Hastings 12 ga 34" twist barrel groups are much smaller than 2.5" at 100 yards with Brenneke's (gold or green lightning). Modern shotgun barrels that are made for lightfields are 34" twist. The paradox choke on my vintage W. Evans is 36" twist. Seems to be a pattern here for rifled shotgun barrels firing full bore slugs 1000-1250 fps.

My 16 bore ML patched ball rifle is 66" twist and that works well. I have never tried a Fosbery (or Brenneke) shaped slug in that though.

I would like to know the twist on other vintage ball & shotguns, ie. Lancaster Colindia and all the "invisible" rifled versions that were made for elongated slugs at similar velocities.

Thanks for the info on rifling costs, sounds very interesting. You have some great projects there.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: CommandCar]
      #309759 - 01/01/18 11:27 AM

That really is a great looking gun.

The twist rate conversation - A look at the notes shows a 1:42" twist rate for my WR 16bore rifle.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_SModerator
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Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: tinker]
      #309798 - 02/01/18 07:13 AM

A minie-ball-type .58 cal (24bore) 560gr. Hollow Base projectile will shoot well in as slow as 78" - witness the 3 band Enfield having 39" bl. Local chap (Vancouver Island) made 4 hits out of 10 shots, on a 6' steel plate at 750yards, offhand, with just such a rifle and bullet. He placed 2nd shooting against Sharps, Remington, Ballard and Winchester ctg. buffalo rifles.

This 78" twist was later changed to 48" in the shorter 32" 1858 rifle bl. and 24" bl. of the carbine of 1861.

We know, that for an elongated projectile to shoot well, the smaller the bore, the faster must be the twist.

A 12 bore, even meant for slugs, can utilize much slower twists than commonly thought. Do we actually need the overstability of faster twist rates?

When the rush of rifled 12 bore barrels hit the market in the 70's and 80's, I was quite astounded at the seemingly fast rifling twists.

I do think it is an error to adhere to the mid 1800's English gun maker's penchant for super fast twists in the large bores, especially if one is thinking of shooting round balls as well.

A standard 7 dram heavy 12 bore load for the 2 1/2", 2 3/4" or 3" case, should produce about 1,550fps with a round ball.

Weighing in at well over 1 1/4 ounces, a .730" ball or larger, is a lot of power for the Martini - with any of the normal 12 bore black powder loads. Smokeless lends even more power & less felt recoil as well.

In a muzzleloading 12 bore, if using a .715" ball, in pure lead, about 545gr. - driven to 1,350fps by about 120gr. 2F, is lots for most NA game.

A .710" ball will run about 536gr. range.

In the late 1868 & later era, the Sharps and Remington RB's in .50/70 were rifled one turn in 42". My .50/70 Carbine shot very well to 450yards with 450gr. bullets, an inch long, too long according to Greenwell's twist chart - but they shot well, 4 out of 5 rams at 450yards, with 20" bl. carbine.

The later .50/90 buffalo Sharps(as well as those lengthened to 3 1/4" case on the frontier) were rifled one turn in 36".

That twist stabilized bullets quite well to about 600gr.

I always thought 36" was faster than needed for a 12 bore rifle shooting bullets to 600gr. or 700gr., and still do.

As well, my Uberti Winchester model 1876 in .50/95, shooting short bullets (7/8") to 450gr. at 100 meters, 2 1/2" with open sights, has a 48" twist.

I got to the buffalo at our Black Water Range, 1,000 meters using a Lyman mould in 368gr. with the rifle's ladder rear sight from Smith Engineering in Oregon, along with the factory blade front sight. Do you need 36" for a 12 bore - I don't think so.

I would ask Bobby what he thinks on this, Tom.


--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Tom_H
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Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309988 - 05/01/18 09:59 AM

I always wondered if guns like CC.'s evans needed a faster twist because it was only a rifled choke (stripping issues?)

I checked the barrel specs on my 20ga. It was rifled with 8 narrow lands of .005. With full bore slugs it is exceptionally accurate and that was also the plan for the Martini. Round balls are the main focus as I think that they do a more consistent terminal job than virtually any drag stabilized slug and at much longer range.
It is nice to have a gun that shoots factory ammo accurately as well

I originally chose the slow twist in the 20 because many of those full bore slugs are drag stabilized and shoot well with a smoothbore. I wanted to see what "some" twist would do with them, knowing that their max range would probably be around 100yds anyway.
That 20ga barrel is currently on my cape gun and the smooth and rifled barrels shoot pretty well parallel with 3" Brennekes so I am limited to those. Neither the Hastings or Lightfields shoot in the smoothbore and round balls are probably out of the question although I haven't tried them.

As Daryl mentioned earlier, I too am not a fan of overstabilizing. ( I have two interesting stories about rifle bullets taking a 90deg course correction after entering an animal - both I am pretty sure were due to overstabilization.)

My area of the state is shotgun only so that has been my focus for the past few years.
Switched to Lightfields this year and so far I am confident, but one deer alone says little.
I didn't like that the rib/ lung hit at 80 yards was on the verge of staying inside the deer. If I held on bone, the results may have been different in a way that I wouldn't have been happy with. I found some 3"ammo after the season and that may add on some insurance.

I did take two deer this year with my .58 flint and the round ball performance bordered on perfect.
A doe at 15 yards and a buck a few minutes after at 70. RB, 100gr fff, shoulder shots, pass throughs easy recoveries. I took a doe a number of years back at double the distance of the buck with the same .58 and that was a pass through as well
Every deer shotgun should work as well terminally as the equivalent muzzleloader. If round balls work, then I am hoping that will be a simple solution.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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cordite
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Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Tom_H]
      #309995 - 05/01/18 12:50 PM

A beautiful traditional gun like that deserves a nice slow round ball twist. If it were mine I would be looking for something in the 1 to 100 range and with shallow rifling.

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
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Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: cordite]
      #318760 - 03/08/18 11:19 PM

I went with Bob Hoyt on the barrel and am pleased with the work. although I am still working on the sights (because the outside of the barrel is not true to the inside), with 80gr of ff and .690rb and a .020 patch it shoots one hole at 25 yds. I am still considering shortening the barrel.
I am also looking for a rear sight arrangement that works. Can dovetail, but will more likely sweat on a sight with at least one extra leaf.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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Heelerau
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Reged: 31/01/17
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Loc: Australia
Re: Euroarms Magnum cape gun 12ga [Re: Tom_H]
      #318928 - 09/08/18 10:33 AM

Tom , soft soldering sights on would be a good idea, particularly as the bore is not parallel to the outside. I am still working up a load for my Forsyth rifled bore gun, I found mine quite comfortable to use with 4 1/2 drams of Fg. I am going to work up some loads with FFg and see if I can get a better group. I as Darryl suggested use a thick hard felt greased wad over the powder, helps with loading and does a good job of protecting the patch. I think also it my help the combination to engage the rifling, mine is an original rifle and the bore is not quite as nice as it could be. Look forward to seeing the finished rifle and a target or two !!

Cheers

Gordon

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !


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