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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Sistema Colt Modelo 1927
      #318819 - 05/08/18 11:28 PM

After spending 5 weeks travelling in Chile and Argentina a few months back, I became very interested in the firearms carried by the ever-present mounted police guarding street-corners and plazas, or marching in seemingly-impromptu parades. Any attempt to get a closer look at the service pistols, normally concealed in leather flap-holsters, was met with hostile stares from their custodians!

Not wishing to extend my holiday in a South American jail, I postponed this research interest until safely back in Oz. While web-searching Argentina's colourful small-arms history through the 1900s I came across a Sistema Colt for sale, and took the plunge.

The pistol is roll-marked "C.F.S." for Consejo Federale de Securidad, the Federal Council for Security set up by Juan Domingo Peron to give him absolute control over all of Argentina's numerous police forces. According to Clawson, only 100 Sistema Colts were made for the CFS, in 1954, but there were clearly more. This one has the highest serial number listed on the 1911forum site where they maintain a thread on the CFS-marked Sistema Colts.



The pistol came with original black leather flap-holster, spare mag in a pouch on the drop-loop, all parts with matching-numbers including magazine. It has not been arsenal-refurbished like those surplussed in the US during the 1990s, instead it came to Australia via Germany acquiring German proof-marks along the way.

Unfortunately the original barrel is worn beyond serviceable limits, barely holding a group at 7 metres, but I was lucky enough to find a brand-new 1990s-era Thompson barrel and fitted it myself. This is my first 1911, so steep learning-curve, assisted greatly by borrowed copies of Kuhnhausen's bibles. Shot it yesterday with perfect satisfaction, fed and ejected perfectly, all in the black at 25 metres with 6 o'clock hold. ...if anything stringing horizontally a bit, not sure how fussy I should be. Also puts a couple of tiny marks on the case, at 4 and 8 o'clock just below the case-mouth, might need to widen the barrel-ramp a smidge more.

Quickly discovering that 1911 Colts are just as addictive as British double rifles! Might need to buy a few more lottery tickets...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4198
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #318833 - 06/08/18 06:11 AM

Is it in .45ACP & if so what events are you allowed to use it in?

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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
Loc: fla
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #318859 - 07/08/18 11:44 AM

i've got a 1927 F.M.A.P marked one .it was issued to my dad while on the navy target team in the fiftys along with an h&r leatherneck and a p17 accurized with a tomphson sight. being a cheif when he drummed out they surplusd his guns out to him. he sold the p17 but kept the sight and the 1911 and the H&R. if u like shooting that try a gold cup. mine runs like a sewing machine.how our navy ended up with a colt systima i have know idea.probably screwing with my dad.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: ducmarc]
      #318866 - 07/08/18 10:53 PM

The Sistema Colt is indeed a .45 but is marked 11.25mm being the metric equivalent. They were supposedly made to be fully interchangeable with the Hartford Colt 1911s that Argentina had been importing from the US between the wars.

Not really suitable for the range matches I normally shoot, but in the Northern Territory it can be discharged any time on a Collectors Licence with the right authorisation.

I have thought about shooting the Australia Day, Anzac Day, and Rememberence Day Service Pistol matches with it, but have been doing quite well with my Mk.VI Webley revolver (often win the precision, but not the rapid-fire! Managed an overall 2nd last year though).

ducmarc: I'd love a Gold Cup, will keep an eye out for an affordable example but probably can't hold my breath for that long! Was your dad's pistol roll-marked MARINA DE GUERRA, MARINA ARGENTINA, OR ARMADA ARGENTINA on the slide? Judging by the build quality of the Sistema Colt in my custody, I would say your dad kicked a goal!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #318870 - 08/08/18 12:59 AM

Nice little bit of history there.

Let us know how you do in the matches!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
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Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #319195 - 20/08/18 03:56 PM

Quote:

After spending 5 weeks travelling in Chile and Argentina a few months back,



While in Chile did you, perchance, sample any of my Chilean cousins' product? They are based in Santiago.



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1826
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #319196 - 20/08/18 04:01 PM

Chilean Luger: http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1844chilean00.htm

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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Vladymere
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #319202 - 20/08/18 11:35 PM

ducmarc,

What is a P17? I am familiar with the British P14 or Pattern 14 and the US Model of 1917 but not a P17 but not a P14.

The Argentine System Colts are made on equipment sold to Argentina by Colt so all parts should be fully interchangeable. I have one of these also. Mine is from the Argentine air force and was refurbished by the Argies so it is a gray phosphate parkerized finish.



Vlad

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Vladymere]
      #319390 - 28/08/18 12:16 AM

Vlad:
One could speculate on the possibility that your 'Aeronautica Argentina' Colt may have seen service in the Malvinas!

I was able to discover that the equipment used to build Sistema Colts at Esteban de Luca Arsenal (Buenos Aires) from 1936 to 1942, and the FMAP at Rosario from 1942 to 1966, was imported from Germany. Colt did supply the blueprints and tooling though, and the technicians to set it all up in the first place apparently.

Full parts interchangeability with the Hartford Colts that Argentina had been importing from the US since WW1 was indeed a mandatory design specification of the Sistema Colts.

I just did a 7-page article for our local Arms Collectors Journal on the CFS Sistema Colts, to be published in October. There is a ton of info on the web, great fun researching these interesting pistols.

And Rothhammer....
There doesn't exist a beer in Chile we didn't try!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #319401 - 28/08/18 11:12 AM

Thanks for the info Marrakai.

Vlad

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #319476 - 31/08/18 01:18 AM

Quote:

After spending 5 weeks travelling in Chile and Argentina a few months back,



Marrakai, I wish I had known that when in Darwin at your house, I would have loved to hear about your trip. A visited Chile and Peru a few years ago, (?) and in Chile only Santiago and Valpariso plus a wine district in between, and am keen to return one day. Plus Argentia. Would love to hear of your travels.

Quote:


Not really suitable for the range matches I normally shoot, but in the Northern Territory it can be discharged any time on a Collectors Licence with the right authorisation.



I am more than envious of your collectors licence laws in the NT. Ours are terrible, require X number (four or six?) attendances at meetings or events for members to keep their licence. Opened to allow "distance" methods for non city members though. No ammunition can be owned for the collectors firearm. One shoot allowed only per year. No ammunition can be kept after the shoot. Attempts were made to open up the shoots per year to three or more, but the Police pulled back to the old laws and no improvements at all.

The NT is far far better.

And the last thing they would want is people owning 1911 .45's ...

Good luck with it and have fun.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: NitroX]
      #344502 - 22/08/20 08:05 PM

Apologies for bringing this BTT, but in my quest to find an affordable Ballester Molina to add to the "Argentine Sidearms" collection, I ended up buying another one of these Sistema things!

Well, sorta...!

Just picked it up yesterday, and spent some time on it this arvo. Very interesting piece!

It was advertised as a Commercial Hartford Colt 1911 from the first shipment to Argentina in April 1914.

Well, sorta...!

Turns out the serial number marked on the action (frame) is indeed from the April 1914 shipment of 100 pistols delivered to the Argentine battleship Rivadavia, under construction and about to be commissioned in the US at the time. A second 100 pistols was delivered on the same day to another Argentine warship, the Moreno, being built there also.

The action is however a Sistema Colt built decades later at Buenos Aires or Rosario, with the original number removed before being rebadged with the 1914 Colt number.
So its a fake, right?

Well, sorta...!

Thankfully the slide is original Colt with the un-circled Rampant Colt to the rear of the slide-grips and MARINA ARGENTINA roll-marked on the RHS. The patent information on the LHS of the slide includes the Aug 19, 1913 patent date however, added some time around mid-1914, so correct for one of the 127 pistols delivered in November 1914. Only 327 Hartford Colts made up the total Argentine contracts of 1914, the deliveries in subsequent years having the Argentine crest on the slide.

So what I actually have is a post-1927 Sistema Colt with a November 1914 commercial Hartford Colt slide and an April 1914 serial number! A real bitzer!

But here's the good bit:
apart from significant but gentle wear to the finish on the slide, this thing has done no work whatsoever and is in bloody marvelous condition for a (partly) 106-year-old .45 Colt! The bore condition is near new and I was assuming it had been re-barreled since repatriation from Argentina, but on (very!) close examination I found a microscopic US importer's mark on the barrel: NHM CO SAC CA for New Helvetia Mercantile Corp, meaning the whole shebang almost certainly left Argentina as-is. No clue how it ended up on the western side of the pond though!

Really enjoying my Argentine Colt adventures so far,
...with Ballester Molina still to come!

Will post some photos of this latest acquisition when I get a bit more time at the desktop.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #345484 - 01/10/20 01:34 PM

Finally got around to fitting a flat mainspring-housing and double-diamond timber grips
...although the grips are impregnated with some kind of acrylic and don't really look the part!

Nevertheless, a really good thing!





Found out from one of Mark W_'s books that the 127 Colts delivered in November 1914 also went to the Argie battleship ARA Rivadavia.
All good!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #345485 - 01/10/20 01:44 PM

Very nice Marrakai!

Vlad

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4198
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Vladymere]
      #345488 - 01/10/20 10:23 PM

She's a grand old piece Marrakai!
Yes the NT at least gives you a chance to shoot these old .45's!
They might not be the most accurate, but they will function regardless of what you throw at them; the best designs are always the simplest.
JMB certainly did an extraordinary job on the 1911.
Lucky bugger

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #345990 - 20/10/20 03:56 PM

Thanks 93x64
Quote:

They might not be the most accurate, but they will function regardless of what you throw at them


Put a few rounds through the 1914-contract Colt at our last collector shoot, target was around 15 yds and 5 shots averaged 40mm on centers.

The ramp is a bit off-center and the barrel is a little loose at the front bush, so not complaining.

The Sistema Colt with its brand new Thompson barrel, fitted tight, will do that at 25 yds rested, with a little bit of horizontal spread to maybe 60mm or so.

With the tiny military sights and my eyes, that'll do me!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Marrakai]
      #346007 - 21/10/20 04:16 AM

Great job on that one..

Congrats..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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9.3x57
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Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: Ripp]
      #346013 - 21/10/20 05:36 AM

Marrakai:

Those are neat pistols. Used to sell here for dirt but not anymore!

From the left side w/ the flat MS housing at a glance it looks the part {those little half-moon dish-outs give it away...} You could be chasing Pancho Villa across the Sonoran desert! Now you need a Benet-Mercier machinegun for company!

{BTW, no '27's were ever assembled w/ flat MSH's as I recall.}

Also, many years ago, in American Rifleman there was a metallurgical comparison between Colt's and Argie 27's and the Argentine pistols did differ somewhat substantially in heat treatment, the 27's being somewhat softer on some critical surfaces. I wish I could remember which copy, as it was an OLD one from the '50's or so. I THINK I have it. I use the new ones as firestarter but the old ones are treasures. I'd problem go thru the best part of the furniture before I'd burn those old American Riflemans!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Sistema Colt Modelo 1927 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #346067 - 22/10/20 09:48 PM

9.3x57:
You will have to send me over a Benet-Mercier, none at my local gunshop!

I would be interested to know the details of that metallurgical comparison in American Rifleman. Most modern 'experts' contend that the Sistema Colts are every bit as good as the Hartford originals. Also, I can't imagine they had many to test back in the 1950s as they were still in service in Argentina at that time and didn't start turning up in the US as surplus till much later.

If one of the softer critical components is the barrel though, I would believe it. The chamber on the original barrel from the CFS-marked pistol mentioned above was so oversized that a round inserted into the chamber would rattle from side to side. Fired cases looked 6-months pregnant! I considered it unsafe to fire as a blown case was inevitable sooner or later. Accuracy was in the toilet of course. Can't imagine how it got that bad, when the rest of the pistol is still perfectly fine. Simply fitting a new barrel brought accuracy into line with any GI Government Model Hartford Colt. Weird...!

And I agree on the early gun-mags, and not just American Rifleman. A lot of the modern publications are comic-books!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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