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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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homemadeDR
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Colorado, USA
Selling a shotgun converted to DR
      #317136 - 07/06/18 11:12 AM

Several years ago I built a .470 dr from a CZ Bobwite 12 Guage. A gunsmith threaded and joined the barrels to the mono block and he welded and fit the extractor so I basically just regulated and finished it. I have a couple hundred rounds through it and it still locks up tight. The smith and I proofed it with heavy loads but never sent it over seas to proof. Any legal or moral concerns with me selling it now?

Dan


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3744
Loc: Nevada
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #317137 - 07/06/18 11:30 AM

With full disclosure you should rest easy.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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homemadeDR
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: tinker]
      #317139 - 07/06/18 08:20 PM

Thanks Tinker. Full disclosure is no problem at all.

Dan


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Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1168
Loc: New Zealand Australia South A...
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #317148 - 08/06/18 05:01 AM

Hi Dan, could we see some photos of it mate, always great to see some ones Double work ?

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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homemadeDR
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Sarg]
      #317152 - 08/06/18 10:05 AM

Hi Sarg. Iíll try to figure it out tonight and post a couple of pics

Dan


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homemadeDR
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #317155 - 08/06/18 11:24 AM

lets see if this works
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php
34755379_860757354094665_4248072811542740992_o.jpg

probably not


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Wayne59
.375 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 904
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #317156 - 08/06/18 11:50 AM

Not very well I get an error message.

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homemadeDR
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Wayne59]
      #317198 - 10/06/18 11:57 AM

Well I signed up for photobucket but when I try to log in I get routed to a bogus site. Hate computers.... I can paste a link to my guns international ad if it is ok by the rules.

Dan


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3744
Loc: Nevada
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #317199 - 10/06/18 12:14 PM

Go ahead and post it.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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homemadeDR
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: tinker]
      #317610 - 29/06/18 07:49 AM

Sorry about the delay. This listing has photos

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=101050553


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 4859
Loc: Alleghany County, Virginia, US...
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #317620 - 29/06/18 09:34 PM

I've got to say, that's one heck of a veneer job! Looks beautiful.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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homemadeDR
.224 member


Reged: 02/12/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: CptCurl]
      #317808 - 06/07/18 11:34 AM

Thanks. I donít have a vacuum press but with a tire tube, old rags, and Saran Wrap I managed to get tight even pressure. Cutting and piecing was fun too. I sure hope that the original piece of lumber to make that veneer was too thin to make a real stock! 😔

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crshelton
.275 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 98
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #317831 - 06/07/18 10:34 PM

homemadedr,
Very nice rifle.

In one of the photos, there appears to be a hole in the center of the rear lens cap of the telescopic sight. Can you tell me the function of that hole?

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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smokpeolesc
.224 member


Reged: 02/11/09
Posts: 2
Loc: SC, USA
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: crshelton]
      #319988 - 22/09/18 12:14 PM

HomeMadeDR,
That is a Beautiful rifle! I hope it finds a home where it will be loved! Your veneer work is impressive. I have been dreading fitting a new forearm to a Tolley with very intricate exjector cuts. Someone sanded most of the checkeNo shipping to Vermont.ring off below the metal. GRRRR.... You have given me the courage to try to veneer it.

SmokePoleSC, aka Rob


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Rothhammer1
.375 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 714
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: homemadeDR]
      #319996 - 23/09/18 02:01 PM

Quote:

Hi Sarg. Iíll try to figure it out tonight and post a couple of pics

Dan




Try this if you'd like to post photos to the forums: Post Photos to NE

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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DeweyVicknair
.275 member


Reged: 29/12/14
Posts: 74
Loc: Lititz, PA United States
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #320279 - 02/10/18 12:28 PM

Whether or not you provide 'full disclosure", you are liable to be sued in the event that someone is injured due to a mishap with this firearm. In the eyes of the law, YOU manufactured this firearm and it is you who will be held responsible for any injury that may occur.

I wish I had photos of the shotgun-to-rifle conversion that came into the shop that had suffered a pierced primer. It would scare all but the most obstinate of you guys away from shotgun actions forever and make you see that "green bible" for the catbox liner that it actually is.

I'm not talking about a catastrophic failure of the barrel or frame, just a pierced primer and the stock was blown to splinters (many of which embedded themselves into the shooter's hand, arm and face), the mechanical damage was also significant.

Like the above gun, your CZ has firing pins that are integral to the hammers, meaning that if a primer is pierced, much gas pressure is going to vent directly into the frame and stock. Neither of those areas was meant to contain pressure of any type, much less that type.

The reason that rifles have disc-set strikers has nothing to do with the diameter of the striker nose but as a safety mechanism. In a proper disc-set design, the rupture of a primer will drive the striker back into its bore in the standing breech, sealing off the internals of the frame and stock while the gas pressure is vented through the vent screw.

No shotgun design that has its strikers integral to the hammer has enough material in the standing breech to CORRECTLY be converted to a disc-set design, FULL STOP.

I don't know about too many other areas where people talk about American exceptionalism, but we are certainly exceptionally good at getting lawyers involved in things. So, the real question is: Is the monetary gain from selling this item worth the potential consequences down the road? I also doubt that any "liability release" that you have the buyer sign will be worth the paper it's printed on in a worst-case scenario.

This is precisely the reason that the UK and European countries have proof laws. The gun or rifle passes proof, the maker is in the clear (basically). Over here we let the lawyers handle it.

Unpleasant to read? Yup.
Realistic? Yes again.

--------------------
Only elephants need ivory.

Freedom of speech is worthless without freedom of thought.

Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.


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crshelton
.275 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 98
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: DeweyVicknair]
      #320427 - 06/10/18 06:32 AM

Mr Vicknair,
From your above post, I conclude that you see a major safety hazard with shooting shotgun based double rifles. Please help me to understand upon what facts or statistics this hazard is based.

You see, I have shot double shotguns for over 60+ years. This shooting was during practice, hunting, skeet, and sporting clays. Never in all this time have I experienced or heard of a shotgun piercing a primer.

Also, in 40+ years of shooting center fire pistols, never have I experienced or heard of a punctured pistol primer.

Lastly, in 40 years of shooting center fire rifles, never have I experienced a pierced primer or even heard of or read about a pierced primer causing problems.

I have seen the results of bad hand loads on guns and it was not pretty.

I still shoot double guns,center fire rifles and pistols and do not understand your concern about the likelihood of punctured primers.

If primer failures were commonplace or even likely, it would seem the alarm would have been raised many years past and the problems solved.

Thank you in advance for your assistance, as I am neither a gun maker nor gun smith, just a shooter and reloader.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/

Edited by crshelton (06/10/18 06:58 AM)


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DeweyVicknair
.275 member


Reged: 29/12/14
Posts: 74
Loc: Lititz, PA United States
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: crshelton]
      #320429 - 06/10/18 08:12 AM

Because it never happened to you does not mean that it doesn't happen. It's actually not uncommon, at all, and you may be the only person in the shooting world that hasn't heard of it ever happening.

And yes, knowing what the differences are between a rifle frame and a shotgun frame, and understanding the forces involved at the time a break-action gun is fired, definitely causes me to believe that building centerfire rifles on shotgun frames is potentially very hazardous. It's interesting when someone says that X shotgun is the perfect base for a rifle conversion because of its strength or because it's got a crossbolt (that may or may not actually be functional). Upon exactly what knowledge are these claims of strength made. Strong as compared to what? "Good steel" is another one. What is "good" steel? How does one recognize "bad" steel? Any metallurgist would give his first-born for the ability to analyze steel simply by looking at it.

Rifles use small diameter firing pins primarily to provide more support for the primer cup during ignition. A shotgun's large-diameter firing pin bore allows far less support for the rifle primer. The shotguns larger firing pin bore will allow the rifle primer to extrude into the firing pin hole as the pressure in the primer pocket builds during ignition. This is commonly known as cratering is not necessarily a sign of excess pressure. In fact, there are NO visual signs that DEFINITIVELY point to excess pressure. All "classic pressure signs" can be explained by factors other than excess pressure. The ONLY definitive way to determine chamber pressure is to measure it.

To use cratered primers as an example, that condition can, and is very commonly caused by, a weak mainspring. If the mainspring is weak enough it can directly contribute to a punctured primer as the primer cup simply extrudes into the firing pin bore until it fails. Rifle primer cups range in thickness from roughly .020" to .025" and they also vary greatly in hardness from one maker to another. Rifle cartridges generate considerably more pressure in the primer pocket at the moment of ignition than do shotgun cartridges. This is partially because shotshell primers have much more internal volume than do rifle primers.

Have you ever noticed that often, a rifle primer is seated below the case head before firing and is flush (or slightly proud) after firing? When the firing pin strikes the primer, the entire cartridge is driven forward until it stops and then the pressure building in the primer pocket drives the primer rearward, into the breechface. The expanding powder gasses then drive the case rearward, seating the primer flush.

From the above, it should be very clear how a primer can fail. Another common cause of pierced primers is a damaged firing pin nose. This damage can take the form of chips, erosion or simply wear.

As far as the strength of a shotgun frame is concerned, ask yourself this. Can you calculate the shear strength of the locking lugs that is needed? How about the strength of the locking lugs of the barrels you have? How about the resultant force placed upon the bites due to the bore axis and hinge axis offset. How about the strength of the frame at the standing breech/action bar junction? That's not simply tensile strength as there is a torsional component to consider. Do you know SPECIFICALLY the materials of the parts with which you're working? How about their heat-treatment, or lack thereof?

A few dozen or even a couple hundred rounds fired without mishap is hardly proof of success. What do these creations look like after a thousand rounds? What does the breechface around the firing pin bores look like after 500 or a thousand rounds? I would think that 1000 rounds should be a reasonable minimum lifespan for a rifle of any type.

British double rifles are proofed with oiled cartridges in order to MAXIMIZE breech thrust and therefore test the strength of the frame as well as the barrels. I wouldn't want to try that with a converted shotgun, especially one of questionable pedigree, as some of these conversions are.

Much talk is made of the need of a "third bite" as if that is some sort of "magic bullet" of safety. The vast majority of shotguns with the vaunted "Greener style cross bolt" show considerable clearance between the crossbolt and the hole in the rib extension, meaning that it does nothing, at all. A whole lot of real double rifles are made with no third bite at all. A crossbolt, even if it's actually functional does not make up for material and strength that are lacking in the breechface and action bar.

A little knowledge can truly be a dangerous thing and do-it-yourself engineering is fine as long as only the do-it-yourselfer is the one taking the gamble.

--------------------
Only elephants need ivory.

Freedom of speech is worthless without freedom of thought.

Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 18051
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: DeweyVicknair]
      #320439 - 07/10/18 04:58 AM

Interesting. Pictures right and left sides make the stock appear to have been broken through the wrist - I guess that is a veneer joint?

Thank You mister D. Vicknair - I understand a lot more now than I did prior to reading this thread.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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crshelton
.275 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 98
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: Daryl_S]
      #320647 - 15/10/18 10:39 AM

Mr. Vicknair,
Thank you for your prompt and detailed response. You have mentioned many factors, a few of which are new to me, that may be cause for concern. You also stated that the primer failure of interest is not uncommon, but did not mention how common are the injuries involved. You also did not provide any hard statistics of the failures of interest.
So, I spent some hours with Google, searching the subject matter of interest and was rewarded with several reports, discussions, and examples of shotgun primers being pierced or otherwise failing. Not surprisingly, most of these occurred in clays competition and practice where shooters fire many thousands of rounds per year. Somewhat surprising to me was that a major American ammo manufacturer was involved and the persons discussing the issues even knew the exact primer make and model used in the different brand and product shells. One brand label was said to have a failure rate of 10 out of every 25 shell box. The primary gun damage reported was erosion of the firing pins; it was recommended that a qualified gun smith address a correction.
But no injuries to the shooters were discussed. So those shotguns may be of different design from the ones of concern or interest. So, I plan to keep shooting my Parker shotguns, use quality ammo, and be aware of the condition of fired shells and the firing pin condition.

So far, I have not found any source of the hard statistical data of interest, but will remain on the lookout for same. Also, please understand that I m not saying that I do not believe you or that such things do not happen. It just does not seem to me that failures that damage the gun or the shooter are inevitable. Or that it is impossible to make such a gun that does not catastrophically fail.

Best Regards and please do keep me in mind if you do run across an article or report that you find convincing enough to pass on. I will do the same.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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DeweyVicknair
.275 member


Reged: 29/12/14
Posts: 74
Loc: Lititz, PA United States
Re: Selling a shotgun converted to DR [Re: crshelton]
      #320653 - 15/10/18 12:43 PM

A pierced rifle primer vents gas under FAR greater pressure than the same situation with a shotshell. Average shotshell operating pressure is between 8,000 and 12,000 pounds per square inch, low-intensity rifle cartridges can be in the range of 30,000 to 45,000 Pounds per square inch. Why is it that rifle designers take such great pains to give an unobstructed path for the venting of gasses in just such a situation, especially considering the "rarity" (in your mind) of such and event? Your "research" mentioned nothing about the results of a rifle primer failure and is, therefore, invalid. Shotshell primer failures are completely irrelevant to the discussion since no one is going to fire shotshells in their rifle conversions. What exactly do you think will happen in the case of a failed rifle primer in a shotgun action and the venting of rifle-level pressure into the action? I've told you what, but you clearly don't want to accept it.

I do wonder about how many of these projects go wrong but I suspect that will never be answered because while it's common for people to post their mishaps when it's a factory-built rifle, I suspect that not many are as willing to share when they are victims of their own ignorance and hubris. Self-esteem and all that.

Everything that I've said is based upon actual engineering data and practices. I realize that you, being the owner of at least one homemade double "rifle", probably don't want to hear most of what I've said. I have not outsourced my cognitive abilities to Google and I don't need statistical samples to recognize poor engineering, dodgy (at best) methods or bad ideas, but since Google is clearly the authority on everything anymore, please continue as you were.

--------------------
Only elephants need ivory.

Freedom of speech is worthless without freedom of thought.

Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.


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