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The search for an all round big game hunting rifle
      #301935 - 18/06/17 11:12 PM

Since seeing the latest 10.3mm rifle, cartridges and intended rifles, I have been intrigued by the concept.

A big game rifle using a wide range of bullet weights from a lighter weight for medium and plains game hunting, even at considerable range, to the heavier bullets for up to and including elephant.

To recap:

New RWS Big Bore Caliber: 10.3x68
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=296552&an=&page=0&vc=1

Quote:

A reduced case length of 68
mm serves as the basis for a balanced, very
well-mannered cartridge that offers a unique
palette of bullet weights between 11 and
26 grams (169 – 401 grains). Performance
levels vary between the .30-06 and the .416
Rem. Mag. with correspondingly comfortable
shooting qualities.




***

Now rather than have to buy a new rifle, or a new barrel for one of my rifles, why not apply the concept to one of my existing rifles.

The obvious choice is the recognised all round one world rifle and cartridge, the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum. A Whitworth Mauser 98 is in my safe. I was considering a 9.3x62 barrel in the future but then decided why bother with it when a .375 can do everything and more, as a Mauser M03.

A second choice for me, is the .404 Jeffery. I have a Mauser M03 ready for this option.

Somethiing I have long desired was a .375 Flanged double rifle. For just this purpose. Except the use of different bullets and weights is a much greater problem than a bolt action or single shot due to regulation issues.

A .416 calibre rifle would be an obvious choice with probably a wide bullet weight range. But don't have one.

A minimum of .375 is the reality. As many jurisdictins ban the use of calibres below this size for dangerous game.

The idea is to have a single rifle, in a convenient travel package, so some sort of takedown. In a useful rifle. The cartridge, barrel, barrel twist, should be able to be used for long range plains and mountain huntng. Given the rifle may be far from ideal in terms of mountain hunting weight. Used for standard hunting, for deer, ferals and the like. So range of lighter, higher velocity, higher BC for weight bullets of suitable construction to reliably kill game of the size, given the large calibre and possibly velocity taken into account. But also be able to be used on the biggest, most dangerous beasts very reliably and effectively. Bull elephant being the upper standard.

Bullet weights vary for the .375 from 230/235 grs to 350 grs. So it is lacking any lighter bullets for smaller medium game. The 235 gr has always occupied this space, or up to 270 gr. The 300 to 350 grs make very versatile buffalo and elephant projctiles.

Bullet weight ramge for the .404 Jeffery/.423 vary between a light 257 gr Cutting Edge Raptor to the more standard lower weights of 300 to 350 grs. The upper range of 400gr to 450gr makes very effective buffalo and elephant bullets.

How effective is this concept?

Are the lightest bullets in a range of projectiles actually un-necessary? Is using the lightest bullet and somewhat higher velocity negated by a much lower Ballistic Coefficent? How does barrel twist affect the efficiency, accuracy usability of the bullet weight ranges?

Many things to consider.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (18/06/17 11:46 PM)


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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #301936 - 18/06/17 11:14 PM

The bullet range I put together for the .375. There may be others.

375 Mag .375"

.375 H&H Magnum, 9.5x57mm

Woodleigh
42A 375 Mag .375" 235gr PP SN
42 270gr RN SN
43A 270gr PP SN
44HD HEAVY DUTY 300gr RN SN
44 300gr RN SN
45A 300gr PP SN
46 300gr FMJ
46BHD HEAVY DUTY 350gr RN SN
46C 350gr PP SN
46D 350gr FMJ

Barnes
Tipped TSX 250 gr TTSX
TSX 235 gr TSX
TSX 270 gr TSX
TSX 300 gr TSX
TSX 350 gr TSX

Nosler
AccuBond Bullet 260 Grain
AccuBond Bullet 300 Grain
Partition Bullet 260 Grain
Partition Bullet 300 Grain

Swift
A-Frame 250 Gr
A-Frame 270 Gr
A-Frame 300 Gr

Norma
Oryx 19,4 g/300 gr - #20695071

Speer
2473 375 285 / 18.47 Grand Slam SP
Hot-Cor®
2471 375 235 / 15.23 Semi-Spitzer SP
Boat Tail
2472 375 270 / 17.5 Spitzer BTSP

Hornady
DGS 300 Gr
DGX 300 Gr
GMX 250 Gr
Interlock SP-RP 270 Gr

Sierra
200 gr. FN Pro-Hunter 2900
250 gr. SBT GameKing 2950
300 gr. SBT GameKing 3000
350 gr. HPBT MatchKing


Hawk
Round Tip
235 grains x .025 RT $38.50
235 grains x .035 RT $40.00
250 grains x .035 RT $41.50
270 grains x .035 RT $43.00
270 grains x .050 RT $55.50 c4
300 grains x .030 RT $44.00 c3
300 grains x .035 RT $46.00
300 grains x .050 RT $59.00 c4
325 grains x .035 RT $47.50 c3
350 grains x .035 RT $49.00 c2
350 gains x .050 RT $72.50 c2
Flat Point
180 grains x .025 FP $36.50
200 grains x .025 FP $37.50
250 grains x .025 FP $39.50
250 grains x .035 FP $41.00
270 grains x .050 FP $57.50 c4
300 grains x .050 FP $59.50 c4
Spitzer
235 grains x .035 SPZ $41.00
250 grains x .035 SPZ $42.00
270 grains x .035 SPZ $43.00
300 grains x .035 SPZ $44.00
300 grains x .050 SPZ $64.50 c5

Cutting Edge
230gr ESP Raptor
235gr ER (Extended Range) Raptor
275gr Safar Raptor
275gr TSG Safari Raptor
300gr Safari Solid
 

--------------------
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...
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #301937 - 18/06/17 11:16 PM

.404 Jeffery, .422, .423, 10.75mm
.404 Jeffery

Woodleigh
35 404 Jeffery .422" 350gr RN SN
33A 400gr RN SN
34 400gr FMJ
33B 450gr RN SN
34B 450gr FMJ
36 10.75 x 68mm .423" 347gr RN SN
36A 347gr FMJ
444 444 Martin .430" 280gr FN SN

Barnes
TSX .422 400 gr TSX
Nosler
Swagable?
Sporting Handgun Revolver Bullet .44 .429 200 gr
Sporting Handgun Revolver Bullet .44 .429 240 gr
Sporting Handgun Revolver Bullet .44 .429 240 JSP gr
Sporting Handgun Revolver Bullet .44 .429 300 gr

Swift
A-Frame 400 Gr

Hornady
DGS 400 Gr
DGX 400 Gr
FTX .430 .44 Mag 225 Gr
FTX .430 .444 Marlin 265 Gr
Interlock FP .430 265 Gr

Hawk
Round Tip
300 grains x .035 RT $44.00
300 grains x .050 RT $56.00
350 grains x .035 RT $46.00
350 grains x .050 RT $59.00
400 grains x .035 RT $48.50
400 grains x .050 RT $63.00
400 grains x .065 RT $109.50
The .404 Jeffery Rimless Hawk bullet is actually very sleek and not the traditional blunt round nose. It is ascetically pleasing and yet has deadly expansion on impact.


Cutting Edge
257gr Flat Base Raptor
300gr ESP Safari Raptor
325gr Safari Raptor
350gr Safari Solid
375gr Safari Raptor
400gr Safari Solid


Possible swaged bullets to size?

.444 Marlin (.430 dia.)
Flat Point
200 grains x .035 FP $38.50
240 grains x .035 FP $40.00
250 grains x .025 FP $38.50
250 grains x .035 FP $40.50 c2
265 grains x .035 FP $41.50
275 grains x .025 FP $40.00
275 grains x .035 FP $43.50
300 grains x .025 FP $41.00
300 grains x .035 FP $44.50
Spitzer (.429")
275 grains x .025 SPZ $43.00
300 grains x .035 SPZ $46.00
350 grains x .035 SPZ $48.00
400 grains x .035 SPZ $50.00
.425 Westley Richards (.435)
Round Nose
300 grains x .035 RN $51.00
325 grains x .035 RN $52.00
350 grains x .035 RN $54.50
350 grains x .050 RN $55.00
400 grains x .035 RN $66.00
400 grains x .050 RN $56.00
400 grains x .065 RN $101.00
450 grains x .050 RN $71.50

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #301938 - 18/06/17 11:36 PM

Quote:

A .416 calibre rifle would be an obvious choice with probably a wide bullet weight range. But don't have one.




And absolutely right. From the two bullet maker pages I have open right now, the range is from 180 grs to 450 grs for the .416 calibre.

.416, 10.6mm
.416 Rigby

Woodleigh
416 Rigby .416"
39 340gr PP SN 50 .281 .330 1900-2600
37A 410gr RN SN 50 .338 .307 1900-2400
38 410gr FMJ 50 .338 .300
37B 450gr RN SN 50 .371 .338 1900-2400
38B 450gr FMJ 50 .371 .330
416 Remington .416"
37C 400gr RN SN 50 .330 .305 1900-2400
38C 400gr FMJ 50 .330 .300
37N 450gr RN SN 50 .371 .338 1900-2400
38N 450gr FMJ 50 .371 .330

Barnes

Nosler

Swift

Hornady

Hawk

Cutting Edge
180 gr Flat Base Raptor
225gr Safari Raptor
300gr ESP Safari Raptor
300gr Safari Solid
325gr Safari Raptor
370gr Safari Raptor
400gr Safari Solid

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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cordite
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #301940 - 19/06/17 01:22 AM

Interesting concept. But I think there is a lot to be said for using one medium to heavy bullet in a caliber and becoming completely familiar with its trajectory. The 375 h&h is a great example, pick a good bullet from 260 to 300 grains and go to work. Is there really that much to be gained by playing with a lighter, poorer sectional density bullet even at longer range? I don't think so, especially now with good rangefinders so available. That bigger bullet will get the job done at any sensible range and the shooter will be spared trying to remember trajectories for different bullets and fiddling with his sights every time he makes a bullet change.

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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301942 - 19/06/17 03:06 AM

John - you missed the Hornady:
300gr. Spire Point boat Tail
300gr. Interlock
300gr. Interbond

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #301969 - 19/06/17 11:58 AM

how far are u trying to shoot? i would think a 416 220 grain bullet would be almost round. i guess they could make the hollow point more hollow to be lighter and still have a respectable coefficent how about sabbots

--------------------
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: ducmarc]
      #301972 - 19/06/17 02:21 PM

Been searching for the same myself, depends on you main hunting area a bit, for most of the world a 338 is hard to beat 160gr to 300gr, great for NZ & nearly ever where else, if mainly Africa I like my 9.3X62 this is a awesome caliber & a 458Win !

The 375H&H is also great but not as great as everone makes out, hate that long throw in a tight spot had 10's & 10's of clients short stroke these & make a mess !

The .375 min in Africa is over rated to, I bet no one has been stopped from useing lesser bores on DG hunts any where & it is infact not mandatory in most countrys but a recommendation !

--------------------
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #301980 - 19/06/17 05:31 PM

Quote:

John - you missed the Hornady:
300gr. Spire Point boat Tail
300gr. Interlock
300gr. Interbond




Missed probably all sorts of bullets as I put the list together from bullets I might consider. Some I MAY well have missed particularly other brands. I assume that is the .375. I wouldn't touch th Hornady 300grs when I can use far far better Woodleigh bullets. IMO Hornady as a controlled expansion bullet especially for very big game don't have a good reputation. JMO.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Note I may list many other bullets at the lighter ends, as the field of choice is often more limited there.

Also in my experience, when using a much larger calibre, on game relatively smaller than what the calibre is usually used for, a softer bullet often still is a killer. Eg shooting a feral goat with a .30-06 is very effective. Shooting a feral goat with a .375 or .404, if hit anywhere proper should kill very well. Even gut shooting a feral goat (not intentionally) with a 150 gr .30-06, they usually don't go far. A light .375 greater result.

However, I do prefer something better constructed. If shooting say a trophy red stag, I do want some assurance the bullet will work.

The other problem is too much damage. If hunting for meat as well as trophy, versus culling ferals, meat damage can be extreme for the large calibres, light bullets.

--------------------
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...
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301981 - 19/06/17 05:39 PM

Quote:

Interesting concept. But I think there is a lot to be said for using one medium to heavy bullet in a caliber and becoming completely familiar with its trajectory. The 375 h&h is a great example, pick a good bullet from 260 to 300 grains and go to work. Is there really that much to be gained by playing with a lighter, poorer sectional density bullet even at longer range? I don't think so, especially now with good rangefinders so available. That bigger bullet will get the job done at any sensible range and the shooter will be spared trying to remember trajectories for different bullets and fiddling with his sights every time he makes a bullet change.




True. At the moment I really only use two bullets in each rifle. Eg .375 300 gr Woodleigh RNSP and FMJ. For 400 gr .404 same.

Original bullet I set it up for and never played with any others.

As for the benefit at longer range, time and testing will tell.

Point of impact. I have had luck with some bullets where th impacts are consistent or workable together. Changing the reticle is a pain in the arse. But I also have the scopes in quality QD mounts, so swapping a scope is feasible.

In the end, yes going to say a 250 to 270 gr "long range" bullet and a 300 to 350 gr heavy bullet, may be th sweet spot for both purposes in .375. Rather than anything lighter.

And in .404, something in 300 to 350 grs, and 400 to 450 grs.

But will or may play with some lighter bullets to see how thy go. If I ever get onto ferals culling again like we had in the "old days" bullet cost becoms important, when shooting several hundred bullets off in a week. Great practice though. Big bores very sore on the shoulder so maybe the .308 as a reserve.

--------------------
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...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: ducmarc]
      #301982 - 19/06/17 05:42 PM

Quote:

how far are u trying to shoot? i would think a 416 220 grain bullet would be almost round. i guess they could make the hollow point more hollow to be lighter and still have a respectable coefficent how about sabbots




Don't have a .416 so not a problem for me. Some of the bullet designs are actually solid brass with a hollow point. Plastic pointed tips can be inserted to improve the BC.

How far? Sensible field hunting ranges, not the BS youtube scam ranges designed to sell people stuff. . I regard 300 to 400 yards as long range. 200 to 300 yards can be difficult enough, especially for a big bore. So 200 to 400 yards.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (19/06/17 05:46 PM)


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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: Sarg]
      #301984 - 19/06/17 05:54 PM

Quote:

Been searching for the same myself, depends on you main hunting area a bit, for most of the world a 338 is hard to beat 160gr to 300gr, great for NZ & nearly ever where else, if mainly Africa I like my 9.3X62 this is a awesome caliber & a 458Win !

The 375H&H is also great but not as great as everone makes out, hate that long throw in a tight spot had 10's & 10's of clients short stroke these & make a mess !

The .375 min in Africa is over rated to, I bet no one has been stopped from useing lesser bores on DG hunts any where & it is infact not mandatory in most countrys but a recommendation !




I've never short stroked my .375. I shoot it and reload it from the shoulder. Some clients need to learn how to actually shoot. I have won (branch) BGRC fast shooting my .375 against members using medium calibres. Once anyway. Another time forgot to count the shots and snapped an empty chamber.

As for the "recommendation" of an African minimum. Maybe in the outfitters eyes, but usually not the gov'ts. Blind eyes can be turned, then you shoot Cecil and everything is used against you. Or something else happens and the blind start to see ...

Of course buffalo can be killed with lighter rifles. We know that from water buffalo. Same with elephant. But when th big beast doesn't drop, one will soon wish for a rifle with mor grunt.

Yes the .338 has a big range of bullets. And I have thought of it. Decades ago I lusted for one. A .338 and a .416 makes two versatile rifles. But I have a 8x68S and a .375. Prefer them both at the moment. Want to cut BACK the number of rifles I use and perhaps own.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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rigbymauser
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #302334 - 24/06/17 05:08 PM

For me the search is over. If I exclude elephant the .333Jeffery with 300grain either solid or soft handle most game under most conditions. Charging animals ofcouse is a different game, but under normal conditions it will kill buffs too.

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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #302336 - 24/06/17 07:00 PM

Can someone ID this one?

It looks like a PH to me with a $6 Grand price ffs!

http://www.ozgunsales.com/listing/25645/458_win_mag_london_guns_mauser_bolt_rifle_expres.html

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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: gryphon]
      #302337 - 24/06/17 07:40 PM

The seller is trying to get a high price by giving it some English association. It has been for sale many times.

Waidmannsheil.

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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #302338 - 24/06/17 08:12 PM

If its a PH its English ha ha.

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Daryl_S
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: gryphon]
      #302339 - 24/06/17 11:48 PM

Does look like the PH Sanata Barbara bolt shroud, does it not?

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Igorrock
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: Daryl_S]
      #302356 - 25/06/17 05:25 PM

http://www.londonguns.com/

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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #302407 - 27/06/17 06:47 AM

Quote:

http://www.londonguns.com/




I think "London Guns" was a brand name John Saunders of Century Arms in Melbourne used.

--------------------
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...
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #302408 - 27/06/17 06:51 AM

Looks like a Parker Hale with a new stock.

what I also did to me PH1200 .30-06. I wonder if that is also worth $6000 then!!!

The sellers name "moodie" looks familiar. Maybe from another forum in the past? Or a member here???

--------------------
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CZ_hunter
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #317302 - 15/06/18 10:05 PM

Well, I think the intention of RWS is not bad but I think many of us simply won't accept the idea having just one rifle in the safe
I think the cartridge is well thought-out but for my taste, I would rather see its use when hunting heavy game such as moose, bear, buffalo etc. For me it would be much more interesting cartridge (and more versatile) than e.g. 458 Win Mag. I looks like shorter version of 400 H&H, which is by the way, my favorite DG caliber. Giving the construction of the cartridge, the belt is justified. The velocity and the power is very well comparable to 450-400 NE. See the link
https://rws-munition.de/fileadmin/datasheets/rws-10-3x68-mag-tm-bonded-25-9g.hunt.en.pdf
Here https://www.geartester.de/articles/3079 is an article about a hunter, who tested the cartridge and its effectiveness on the European game. He wrote - "Anything I shot at fell down immediately - walk away distance 0 meters"!

--------------------
CZ


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szihn
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Re: The search for an all round big game hunting rifle [Re: CZ_hunter]
      #317306 - 16/06/18 01:11 AM

I used a 404 quite a lot in my early years. 20 and 21 years old at the time. I now have another one, and I like it too. But honestly, living and hunting in the USA, I have not found anything that beats the 375H&H as the "all around" rifle and that's because I live in Wyoming where we have LOTS of big bears and we can hunt moose and buffalo now and then to. For probably 47 of the 50 states a 270, 308 or 30-06 would be a better choice, because in the other states buffalo and Grizzlies are not hunted. Moose are huge, but a good hit with a 270 or a good 30 cal puts them down just fine.

I also have a love affair with the 9.3X62 and the 9.3X74R, but just like these rifles and calibers. For most hunting I admit they are unnecessarily powerful. If I lived in Oz where I had the chance to shoot buff and wild cattle on a regular basis I would probably fall back to my 375, 404 and my 9.3s a lot more and think of them as the "standards. So the point is well taken. You men down under would truly benefit from such ballistics. What I did learn in the 70s using the 404 was that it lacked nothing that I could see. I used mostly the German made ammo (I think it was RWS)and some old Kynoch ammo. The sights on the old Jeffery rifle were zeroed for the 2150 FPS load and the German ammo was 2350. At the ranges I used the rifle, most shots being well under 100 yards, it made no difference that I could see. I was borrowing the rifle, and I was told it was a contract gun sold by Jeffery to the Tanganyikina government in the 30s. I assume that's true, but I cna't prove it.

Anyway, the 404 was a very good "cover every base rifle" and I had full confidence in it's abilities. There in nothing in N. America that really needs such power, but it is still a useful shell even here for those that just like power.


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