Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

Pages: 1
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr
      #244420 - 26/03/14 07:22 AM

have buy a v.Dreyse needle fire double gun and in the same estate is also a v.Dreyse M 60 Fusilier needle fire rifle I have now at home for some days to think about it.
have the feeling the rifle is to good to let it go
Fusilier's in the prussian army were light infantry close as possible to the elite Jäger batalions. when the needle fire rifle came into the army the Jäger were strongly against because they dont wish that the common line infantry get a gun with rifled barrel. so the Jäger hold on their old muzzle loader Jägerstutzen so long as possible. this way the Fusiliers get a special needle fire rifle before them and when the Dreyse Jäger rifle M 65 came to the Jäger it was very similar to this model. well, I am looking for a Jägerrifle M 65 but they are very expensive today

lets take a look on the M 60





128 cm long,









have a .630 roundball mould that will work in the dreyse, next to the muzzle a 9mm Parabellum case







the Dreyse bolt with a Mauser 98 bolt




side by side with a M 98






makes my longest bolt action, a 9,3x64 with a 65 mm long barrel very handy




two needle fire cartridges with a 9,3x64 for comparision




the needle




reminds me on an older project waiting for a long time now
years ago I got a Chassepot Needle fire carbine barelled action and start building a Jäger rifle in the general style of the M 65 Dreyse Jäger rifle but much lighter and slim. maybe I should make it ready this year








so this is the Fusilier rifle, not a Jäger rifle but very similar
the Jäger rifle have a octagonal barrel and a double set trigger and is 10 cm shorter











Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 09:23 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 253
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #244422 - 26/03/14 08:51 AM

Lancaster,

this rifle is in surprisingly good shape!
Do you think it is original, not re-polished or reworked?
Nice wood, too.
Now if she shoots straight and the trigger is "workable", I'd certainly would keep her.

Regards
fuhrmann


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3622
Loc: Nevada
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: fuhrmann]
      #244435 - 26/03/14 02:08 PM

So Damn Cool!!






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: fuhrmann]
      #244442 - 26/03/14 05:29 PM

Quote:

Lancaster,

this rifle is in surprisingly good shape!
Do you think it is original, not re-polished or reworked?
Nice wood, too.
Now if she shoots straight and the trigger is "workable", I'd certainly would keep her.

Regards
fuhrmann




"if she shoots straight" - its like the old time marriage ceremony, no kissing before

we see it as a fact here that the rifle was re-polished by a master gunmaker because it was his own. its in such a shape that you fear to touch it in the first moment but I wonder if it looks 150 years old again when start to shoot it.
the rifle will be a good deal in fact a third of what the Jäger needle fire rifle start to sell but by no means a bargain. the money was not in the budget for this year and I am very sure it will be missed in the wrong moment after.

for gentleman who have never see the needle rifle in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq0X8gCO3pk&list=TLxecPM_oKqMTWU1Ok5GEVziLF0QOeaS74

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (26/03/14 05:41 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 1815
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #244460 - 27/03/14 12:47 AM

It really makes me cringe to see someone shooting anything, but particularly a breech loading rifle using paper cartridges, without proper eye protection. Otherwise, a most instructive video on the use of a Zündnadelgewehr. I have often wondered what the life expectancy of a Zündnadel might be, given that the tip of it is right in the midst of the burning propellant each time the rifle is fired. I am also curious about the ammunition, which appears to be factory made. How available is it, how expensive is it and how much demand is there for such ammunition?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: xausa]
      #244474 - 27/03/14 07:33 AM

I understand your concerns about eye protection but the design of the dreyse rifle dont let gas in the direction of the shooter. this are Guy and Leonard A.R.West from England who have a very high knowledge about early breech loader and working with scientific precision.
I hope they will make a book one day about theirs work.
the cartridges were made by the owner of this rifle. The last factory making cartridges was the old Dreyse factory in Sömmerda. I believe the factory was bought in 1996 by Rheinmetall and than renamed to "Rheinische Metallwarenfabrik Sömmerda, vormals v.Dreyse". Dreyse was allways an ammo maker and it was the first business under the "Dreyse und Collenbusch" name where Dreyse make the money for his breechloader development












Headstamp was Dreyse and later RMS( not RWS)
I believe that needle fire ammo production stopped after the outbreak of WW 1 in 1914. I have the copy of an old RMS catalog around 1904 were you find the complete range of needle fire paper cartridges and components for handloading including the french chassepot needle fire rifle. every new ammo you find sometimes is made by some shooter and lover of the Dreyse rifle.
the use of the original sabot ammo is not possible in germany because modern sabot ammo for rifled barrel is forbidden. stupid but thats the law and everyone take 16mm roundballs for making paper cartridges.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 09:24 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.416 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 4771
Loc: Alleghany County, Virginia, US...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #250711 - 19/07/14 09:24 PM

Lancaster,

This is fascinating and very informative.

Have you fired this rifle? Please report!

Thanks for your knowledge.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: CptCurl]
      #259173 - 19/01/15 03:26 AM

find some nice old pics








the Beck modification
above the original air chamber for taking dirt and dust and below the gas tight Beck modification



action


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Norman4
.300 member


Reged: 16/01/15
Posts: 111
Loc: Vermont,USA
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #259247 - 21/01/15 10:20 AM

Is there ever a danger of igniting a successive cartridge from residual heat or sparks during attempted rapid fire? It's kind of ironic also, don't you think? This rifle technically fires caseless ammo!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #262305 - 15/03/15 09:56 PM

never heard about such a case that a glowing rest of the paper case - and this is the only possiblity - had ignited the next cartridge
neither in the Dreyse nor in the Chassepot so the whole concept was very usable

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1382
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #264964 - 14/05/15 11:11 PM

Any range reports, Lancaster?

--------------------
.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1382
Loc: QLd, Australia
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: Ash]
      #265989 - 06/06/15 10:14 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtO_qFMn9cA&list=PLUoRcFYUnOPCBZlutiI2XwuwVYLHc2sYq&index=1

--------------------
.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: Ash]
      #266012 - 06/06/15 09:25 PM

thats what many dreyse rifles looks today after 150 years of hard use.
sorry no range report till now, first I was waiting for nice and dry weather to go shoot it and now its every weekend something different and problems arround. the things you get with children in the house.
he is right in the video the Dreyse with its 16,5mm groove diameter is the last of the old muskets and the Chassepot with a 11,54mm groove diameter is the next step to the modern rifle. in fact we must says the Chassepot is the great grandfather of the Mannlicher Schönauer, Mauser 71 is the grandfather and the Modell 88 is the father. The Mauser 71 was developt with the Chassepot on the table of the Mauser brothers. many things are very similar including shape and size of the action just taking the last step to a bolt cock on opening when you cock the chassepot by hand before.
of course I have an Mauser 71 hunting rifle project to go buts now in my gunmakers rack waiting for the proof house where it go for nitro proof so I can't compare the three actions here but we will see it in the future.






make some progress with my Chassepot sporting rifle project





the unloadrod is ready now and the trigger plate



the 1866 rubber seal opturator is not so outdated as you may believe. this technology is still in use with heavy artillery shooting powder bags without cases.



http://www.riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/ord/breech.htm




I think its some kind of internet myth the original Dreyse was unsafe to fire and it was common to get gas into the face. such an action would never have been put in service. what Ian shows in the video is an Beck adapted action like my own made after 1868. Beck build an rubber opturator into the action similar to the 1866 Chassepot and with an good rubber ring its perfectly gas-tight.

here you see the Chassepot and the Dreyse opturator side by side



the original action was not completly gas-tight but safe to shoot and you dont had to close the eyes before you fire it. the cone on cone was working very well and in the end the dreyse concept was the better working action especially on the long run when black powder dirt and dust build up shoot by shoot. the needle can be changed in seconds when you need tools to disasemble the Chassepot bolt. the blackpowder dirt problem is growing with smaller chambers and barrels.


the main advantage of the Chassepot was the flatter and longer trajectory of the smaller bullet fired by a higher powder charge. this was surprising anyone who was growing up with muzzle loader and killing energy of such bullets on game was surprising for them too. same effect you had 30 years later with nitro powder rifles in the 8x57 class they called kliometre rifles than.


11,15x60R Mauser case and paper patch bullet, original Chassepot cartridge and new Dreyse roundball bullet cartridge



The Mauser cartridge is practical a Chassepot with a brass case, same bullet weight and similar powder load.



the Dreyse needle




another internet myth is the sabot bullet was not shooting precise, up to 300 meters it was shooting similar or better than any rifled muzzle loader.
nonetheless an 16,0 mm roundball with an paper patch shoots best in this rifles.


this is the best target shoot on the 20. german Dreyse Championship in Sömmerda last year
http://sv-oeschingen.de/aktuelles/meisterschaften/




4 rounds on 50 meter, standing and free handed

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/06/15 02:07 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #315342 - 17/04/18 12:44 AM

because time is a very rare thing and there is allways something special to do this was a sleeper in my gunsafe for a long time but special situation bring it back to the top of the list now .



dont know where it shoot I made a special target, the black dot is 5 cm



first shoot at 25 meter, the original sights are made to hit a man target at 200 or 300 step.
the last owner soft solder a thin higher front sight behind the original as I suspect to shot at 50 meter









after firing - the rest of the paper case. you can remove it with a rod or shoot it out with the next bullet( military practise)





after some try and error at 50 meter I find out whats going on. the front sight was made to shoot at 50 meter on the 100 meter rifle target by set the the black center(in german the "Spiegel") over the sights( in german called "Spiegel aufsitzend")







10 cm thick dry soft pine
thinking it will penetrate a roebuck, dont underestimate a .630 roundball over 75 grains blackpowder






the action after 25-30 cartridges

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 3622
Loc: Nevada
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: lancaster]
      #315344 - 17/04/18 12:54 AM

Excellent!


Great looking rifle. I'm sure you're excited about the performance. Will you get it out in the field for a hunt?




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.416 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 4861
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse Zündnadelfüsiliergewehr [Re: tinker]
      #315345 - 17/04/18 01:06 AM

hmm, its a secret

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
1 registered and 12 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Huvius 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 5879

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved