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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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cordite
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Dram verses Drachm
      #314512 - 27/03/18 04:49 AM

A few months ago I posted here about my Charles Smith 13 bore double rifle. On the bottom of the barrels it is engraved "2 3/4 DRMS powder spherical ball". This always puzzled me as it is a relatively heavy gun and the rifling twist is about 1:100 which should be perfect for heavy charges. It shot quite well with 75 to 90 grains of powder. I didn't try much more than that out of respect for what was engraved on the barrels.

So on a another forum a knowledgeable fellow that some of you know (pukka) was talking about this very subject and explaining the difference between drams (27 grains) and drachms (60 grains). Apparently powder was measured in drachms back in those days and the two were often confused until the Weights and Measures Act of 1878.

So rather than 75 grains, my rifle may have been regulated for 155 grains which would make more sense. I'm pretty knowledgeable about this stuff (I thought) but this is the first I have heard of this.
Any thoughts?

Edited by cordite (27/03/18 04:57 AM)

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szihn
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314517 - 27/03/18 07:12 AM

I always thought they were just different spellings of the same thing. Both were 27.3437 OZ

A Dram (or Drachm) is 1/16 of an once. An once is 437.5 Grains, so 1/16 of that is 27.3437.

Call it 27-1/3 grains for ease.

But I have never heard of 1 drachm being = to 60 grains.


Am I alone here, or missing something?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314518 - 27/03/18 07:15 AM

In the 1850's-1860's - Drachms and Drams seemed to have been used interchangeably, which of course, lead to gross misunderstandings due to the gross difference in their weights.

You are likely correct with the apothocary's weight of 60gr. per drachm - if the gun is 9 pounds or over, rather than the 27.3gr. dram weight.

100" sounds like a typical twist for 4 to 7 drams of powder in a 9 1/2 or 10 pound rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: DarylS]
      #314522 - 27/03/18 07:33 AM

Everything that I have handled or owned showing a charge prescription in Drams had only enough powder room for Drams in the common form noted by Steve.

Sixteenth ounce Drams.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: DarylS]
      #314523 - 27/03/18 07:34 AM

That's what I'm thinking Daryl. I Googled the term and learned that dram was an avoirdupus measurement and drachm was an apothecaries measurement and was equal to 60 grains.

Steve/Tinker, I'm right where you are in not having heard this before. Most of us have seen breech loading guns with the charge engraved in drams. But apparently before this 1878 English law, the drachm was used in conjunction with muzzle loading charges.

I'm not planning to run out right away and start running 160 grains through the old girl but it does tell me there should be no worries about working up a heavy hunting load, 130 grs to 160 grns, if this is all true. I'm still interested in what others think as it seems strange to not have read this somewhere before.

Edited by cordite (27/03/18 07:42 AM)

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Heelerau
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314525 - 27/03/18 08:40 AM

Gentlemen I have a number of powder flasks that I use with adjustable nozzles, all calibrated in Drams, or 27 1/3 grains when I have check weighed them on my scales. I definately would not be using the 60 grains as mentioned earlier.
This discussion of terms was a thread on another site, I am guessing that these chaps were a bit loose with the terms and it has caused some confusion ever since.
I have been using drams since the age of 12ys and had never heard of this discussion of drams vs Drachms till the last several years. The drachm was likely a liquid volume, and also liguid volumes could be given in grains, as I have read in at least one 19 century hunting book.
These chaps were not professional authors and my not have bothered to check certain terms were being used correctly.

Cheers

Gordon

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: Heelerau]
      #314527 - 27/03/18 09:17 AM

Nope, this is correct. Amazing what has been lost to time, at least by those of us who think we know something. But given the confusion it must have caused, maybe best forgotten.


INSTRUCTIONS TO YOUNG SPORTSMEN

by Peter Hawker 1826

"put one drachm and a half of powder, exclusive of priming,to an ounce and a half of shot.....(the powder I have measured by apothecaries weight the shot by avoirdupois)".
pages 105-106

Edited by cordite (27/03/18 10:13 AM)

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314528 - 27/03/18 09:25 AM

No wonder they tried to clean this up in later years. People mixing these terms with gunpowder.....

But in terms of the encryption on my muzzle loading rifle, I'm becoming more confident that they were referring to drachms. Also helps explains the 4 folding sights to 300 yards on the rifle. While still very optimistic, it is more realistic with 160 grains of powder than with 75.

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314531 - 27/03/18 10:03 AM

Since the other photos are gone due to the photo bucket fiasco, here are a couple of pictures of my old gal, marked 2 3/4 DRMs, on the bottom of the barrel.

[image]



[image]

[/image]

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314532 - 27/03/18 10:05 AM

Quote:

Nope, this is correct. Amazing that this has almost been lost to time at least my many of us who think we know something.



INSTRUCTIONS TO YOUNG SPORTSMEN

by Peter Hawker 1826

"put one drachm and a half of powder, exclusive of priming,to an ounce and a half of shot.....(the powder I have measured by apothecaries weight the shot by avoirdupois)".
pages 105-106



THIS is very telling.

Although it is obvious Col. Hawker was talking about using a 60gr. drachm, as 1 1/2 would be 90gr. = to 3 1/4 drams, typical for 1 1/2oz shot in a ML.

By the 1850's, Samuel Baker(of the Nile) and Forsyth both mixed the terms, dram and drachm.

I am VERY sure Forsyth was not talking about using 5 drachms of powder (300gr. of #6 C&H) in a 9 pound double 14 bore rifle, although he used the "drachms" term.

I accidentally fired 330gr. in my 9 pound 14 bore single rifle with a 484gr. ball. I had double loaded my 6 dram charge (likely talking), but with one ball only. That "shot" was memorable.

I was sitting on a stool shooting over the chronograph at the time, on the jail range, teaching one of the guards how to load his new muzzleloader - LOL. The shot lifted me up to the standing position. It was a good thing my feet were slightly behind my knees and on my toes, or I'd have gone over backwards. Strangest thing - BOOM! and I was standing up.
The chronograph indicated 1,770fps for that shot.

Earlier testing indicated 190gr.2F (7drams) was the likely max. efficiency for speed, as that charge produced 1,700fps,
which was 200fps. higher than 165gr. 200fps for 35gr. more powder is not bad, but 70fps for another 130gr. is horrid.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: DarylS]
      #314533 - 27/03/18 10:09 AM

Nice old rifle - and very heavy in the tubes. Look as if they are 16 sided. COOL factor is WOW!
Very sure it would be regulated for 150, which is a mere 5 1/2 drams.
I cannot understand a gun this heavy to be regulated for only 68gr. powder & with such a slow twist.

You could work up slowly to see just how it regulates.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: DarylS]
      #314534 - 27/03/18 10:11 AM

well Daryl, you proofed the barrel anyway.

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tinker
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314535 - 27/03/18 10:21 AM

Quote:

Most of us have seen breech loading guns with the charge engraved in drams. But apparently before this 1878 English law, the drachm was used in conjunction with muzzle loading charges.



FWIW my 1862 James Purdey and Sons cartridge rifle has the charge engraved, and the only dram that would fit is the 1/16 oz dram.

That's before the 1878 date that you mention. I'm citing a cartridge rifle, but it's something to note.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314536 - 27/03/18 10:31 AM

Yes, I started at 70 grains and it shot ok, but my ball was too small at .678. Later, after I got a .690 ball it shot better and better still at 90 grains. I decided to stop there based on the barrel inscription. But with this new information I will keep going. With that twist rate I suspect it will continue to improve as I move up in charge. I don't want to strain her but 75 grains is a pop gun load in a bore of this size.

Edited by cordite (27/03/18 10:50 AM)

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: tinker]
      #314537 - 27/03/18 10:35 AM

Tinker, that is good information. It sounds like people were doing it both ways in those early years which must have caused all sorts of confusion.

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Sarg
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314538 - 27/03/18 11:25 AM

Very nice rifle, I thought the thread was on a single barrel as I was thinking it would not regulate with such a under load if in Drachm's ?

I will note in the front of "The Sporting Rifle & Its Projectiles" by Lt Forsyth is a small note from the publisher that Lt Forsyth is referring to Dram 27 1/2grs & not the 60grs of the Drachm in the book !

With the full load you could shoot Buff with a harden ball ?

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: Sarg]
      #314540 - 27/03/18 12:06 PM

Quote:

Very nice rifle, I thought the thread was on a single barrel as I was thinking it would not regulate with such a under load if in Drachm's ?

I will note in the front of "The Sporting Rifle & Its Projectiles" by Lt Forsyth is a small not from the publisher that Lt Forsyth is referring to Dram 27 1/2grs & not the 60grs of the Drachm in the book !

With the full load you could shoot Buff with a harden ball ?




It does regulate pretty well with the lighter load. So will have to see what happens with more powder. Sometimes these large bore guns do not respond the same way as one would expect a small bore nitro gun to respond. In my limited experience, changes in charge weight make for relatively small changes in regulation.

Well there you go. Lt Forsyth's publisher was trying to reduce the confusion brought about by mixing dram and drachm.

I'm sure it would do fine on a buff with the heavier loading. I've shot several deer and a black bear with a 12 bore single shot. A double rifle would be much more comforting when after dangerous game. I know when I shot that Alaskan black bear I would have felt more secure with a double though it was not needed.

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Heelerau
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314585 - 28/03/18 09:16 AM

Cordite, that is a handsome double! I did once have a Henry rifled under lever in 500/450, I did not have the resources at the time to get it to shoot properly.

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: cordite]
      #314593 - 28/03/18 01:05 PM

Quote:

Also helps explains the 4 folding sights to 300 yards on the rifle.



I would put zero reliance on that as a reason. Many of these old rifles had extremely optimistic leaves on their express sights. I think it was a form of marketing in the day, "Hey look, this 10 bore has leaves out to 300 yards! It must be a 300 yard capable 10 bore rifle!!! Yippe!"

Like calling every rifle a "Magnum" not long ago.

All of my DRs have optimistic sets of leaves from the 10 bore, the .450 and another BPE.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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cordite
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Re: Dram verses Drachm [Re: NitroX]
      #314628 - 29/03/18 03:37 AM

Yes you are right. I have other rifles that also have those optimistic sights. They must have had really good eyesight back in the day! Even with my corrected vision, 100 yards is about the limit for me with an open sight. Now a peep sight is another thing but usually only the pure target rifles had them.

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