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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Barrel blow-up follow-up
      #312963 - 24/02/18 06:40 AM

Well.

As many of you all know I experienced af barrel burst last year using Hornady factory ammunition. The final outcome in regards to an actual lawsuit ended up with me not filling lawsuit against my gunmaker who sold me the ammunition. I directed a lawsuit against the importers, but they turned it against my friend(gunmarker). I had made up mine mind already before a lawsuit I would never turn against my friend so I ate the bill and had Peter Hambrusch, Ferlach to make me a new set of chopperlumps, cutrifled barrels, 26".

I have spoke in the meantime with different people i regards to a barrelburst. The short story is metal fatique over the years. Peter Hambrusch was of that opinion after seeing quite a few english doubles in for rebarreling the old nitroproved doublerifle donīt meet CIP rifling standards.

What I know today is this. I would much rather buy a blackpowder express doublerifle from 1888 using light lowpressure nitro loads and lead bullets, than buying a nitro doublerifle from(lets say) 1906 and use modern ammunition. Even though the old BPE rifle also experience metal fatique, a lead bullet with blackpowder or light nitro load has less chance to stress the metal.

With this new set of barrels I can shoot any modern projectiles frome Speer, Hornadys, Barnes, GS Custom, etc etc. I never have to worry about what to feed the rifle. The total cost for the rifle including a new set of barrels is aprox $22000.

Here is the result of Peter Hambrusch work. Enjoy.








Edited by rigbymauser (24/02/18 07:13 AM)


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: rigbymauser]
      #312964 - 24/02/18 07:09 AM

Terrible shame RM that this occurred to you, just glad you are OK!
It must be noted here that metal fatigue can happen at any time, & I would urge all owners of 'older' doubles to get there barrels x-rayed for any inclusions - before it happens!
To come back from one of these instances is a real credit to yourself mate, you have given this old lady back her legs & preserved her for at least another century.
Your mate certainly did a wonderful job.
All the best in the field with your 'old girl'
Cheers
93x64mm


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
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Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: 93x64mm]
      #312972 - 24/02/18 08:46 AM

Great work! Thanks for letting us know how it all turned out.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4896
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: rigbymauser]
      #312983 - 24/02/18 10:44 AM

Two things. 1) Very nice work on the new barrels, a credit to your mate.
2)The manner you dealt with this, not suing your mate, is a credit to you. Well done.


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Rockdoc
.400 member


Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1212
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: Rule303]
      #313105 - 25/02/18 12:50 PM

Lovely job!

Sad to hear about the barrel blow up. Was that using solids?

I have and have had a H&H double from 1906. It was recommended by a double rifle expert that using solids puts too much pressure on the barrels and that I should use the Woodleigh Hydro bullets as they are lower pressure and made of the same material as the jackets of SN and FMJ bullets, without the steel of a FMJ of course.

I think that this has been borne out by some pressure testing.

Some of the Hornady stuff is fairly quick too..


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: Rockdoc]
      #313107 - 25/02/18 01:28 PM

Beautiful Job!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rockdoc
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1212
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Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: DarylS]
      #313108 - 25/02/18 02:12 PM

It is a beautiful rifle too!

So glad it could be restored after the he blow up

Regards, Chris


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paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: Rockdoc]
      #313112 - 25/02/18 04:55 PM

Well done RM.
Can you tell us if the Hornady factory ammo has been tested to determine if it is with in specs?
I have a batch of WR ammo , from 5 years ago in 450/400 31/4 that is WAY too hot to shoot. No blow up,thankfully, but all other signs of very very high pressure.
Good question, softs, or solids??

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: paradox_]
      #313118 - 25/02/18 06:12 PM

Puzzles me why anyone would think of filing a lawsuit against a retailer of factory ammunition, Surely an investigation first to determine the exact cause of the burst barrel. As it turns out advice seems in this case, to indicate an old firearm with metal fatigued barrels using modern ammunition was the cause of the blown barrel.

If anything a question could be asked of Hornady, the manufacturer of the ammunition but of course with even just a small bit of thought they would soon have pointed to the real problem. This is the very thing that is covered here in NZ for firearms licence applicants. I am one of the firearms safety instructors who teach this, old shotguns and modern ammunition do not mix. Double rifles are not overly common here but the same would apply.

You might have looked rather silly in a law court had you gone ahead with your lawsuit. Fortunately nobody got hurt except a little pride maybe.


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Gen_Hicks
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Reged: 15/10/12
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Loc: Lowveld, South Africa
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: eagle27]
      #313121 - 25/02/18 07:25 PM

She is looking nice with her barrels there, Jens!

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: eagle27]
      #313127 - 25/02/18 08:42 PM

Quote:

Puzzles me why anyone would think of filing a lawsuit against a retailer of factory ammunition, Surely an investigation first to determine the exact cause of the burst barrel. As it turns out advice seems in this case, to indicate an old firearm with metal fatigued barrels using modern ammunition was the cause of the blown barrel.

If anything a question could be asked of Hornady, the manufacturer of the ammunition but of course with even just a small bit of thought they would soon have pointed to the real problem. This is the very thing that is covered here in NZ for firearms licence applicants. I am one of the firearms safety instructors who teach this, old shotguns and modern ammunition do not mix. Double rifles are not overly common here but the same would apply.

You might have looked rather silly in a law court had you gone ahead with your lawsuit. Fortunately nobody got hurt except a little pride maybe.




You donīt have the slightest or the brightest ideas of what you are writing.


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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1108
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: rigbymauser]
      #313147 - 26/02/18 05:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Puzzles me why anyone would think of filing a lawsuit against a retailer of factory ammunition, Surely an investigation first to determine the exact cause of the burst barrel. As it turns out advice seems in this case, to indicate an old firearm with metal fatigued barrels using modern ammunition was the cause of the blown barrel.

If anything a question could be asked of Hornady, the manufacturer of the ammunition but of course with even just a small bit of thought they would soon have pointed to the real problem. This is the very thing that is covered here in NZ for firearms licence applicants. I am one of the firearms safety instructors who teach this, old shotguns and modern ammunition do not mix. Double rifles are not overly common here but the same would apply.

You might have looked rather silly in a law court had you gone ahead with your lawsuit. Fortunately nobody got hurt except a little pride maybe.




You donīt have the slightest or the brightest ideas of what you are writing.




My observation is based on the information you gave in your post, glad to be enlightened if you care to. I understand you not wanting to involve your friend in a lawsuit but puzzled why the ammunition manufacturer is not the party you would be looking to file a lawsuit on. I deduced by the information you gave that your gunsmith friend did not make or work on your gun (the barrels) therefore could not be liable for faulty material or workmanship. If he did then I accept you might have cause for taking legal action to recover costs involved in sorting the problem. You didn't indicate what role your gunsmith played other than selling you factory ammunition.

It seems the fault was either with the factory produced Hornady ammunition or your gun, the latter which you seem to have accepted was the problem?


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: eagle27]
      #314176 - 20/03/18 04:11 AM

I went shooting the rifle her yesterday and I must say it regulated fine and it didn`t blew up. Thank goodness!!.

However the line of sight and the line of the bulletpath doesn`t meet at any distance.
Shooting at 50meters the rifle printed 40cm below point-of-aim.
To prove what I suspected I went to shoot at 100m and the rifle printed 70cm below point-of-aim.
The line of sight versus the centerline of bore is orthogonal.
The further distance the further apart!.
I doubt the gunmaker has never used the original sights to regulate the rifle with.
Yes the rifle regulate but not in horizontal line with the sights.

Solution: The front sight must milled 3mm down and a new slot milled out for the sight-insert. Thankfully I know someone who can do it.
I was about to get itchy nerves.

The ejectors work perfectly not throwing the cases 2miles away but merely releasing to an easy grab.

Edited by rigbymauser (20/03/18 04:18 AM)


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: rigbymauser]
      #314179 - 20/03/18 04:33 AM

I don't understand this statement.
"I must say it regulated fine"

when you then state this:
"at 50meters the rifle printed 40cm below point-of-aim"
"at 100m and the rifle printed 70cm below point-of-aim"

then this
"The further distance the further apart!." (IE: diverging)

That is no regulation of a DR in my opinion.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: DarylS]
      #314182 - 20/03/18 04:39 AM

Quote:

I don't understand this statement.
"I must say it regulated fine"

when you then state this:
"at 50meters the rifle printed 40cm below point-of-aim"
"at 100m and the rifle printed 70cm below point-of-aim"

then this
"The further distance the further apart!." (IE: diverging)

That is no regulation of a DR in my opinion.





The rifle regulated fine. Both barrels printed the shots at the same place.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: rigbymauser]
      #314184 - 20/03/18 04:48 AM

OK- "there seems to be a breakdown in communication", as Cool Hand Luke would say.

I guess you mean they were shooting together, not crossing, and only the elevation increased with range - which is elementary/obvious.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: DarylS]
      #314187 - 20/03/18 06:53 AM

What was the original caliber of this rifle?

So far I have seen a Holland 500/465 and a late Alexander Henry 475no2 with burst barrels. I have heard of others but those are the only two I have personally handled.

The Henry had been rebored.


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LGF
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Reged: 27/04/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: 93x64mm]
      #314390 - 23/03/18 11:39 PM

Where would one get barrels X-rayed in the US? How much does that cost?


Thanks


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2386
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Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: LGF]
      #314392 - 24/03/18 12:46 AM

Could a Mod resize the last picture please., it's way to big. I can either see the picture and not be able to read the text or read the posts with short sentences and n ot see the picture.

Thanks

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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cordite
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Loc: NW Montana
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: DoubleD]
      #314397 - 24/03/18 02:08 AM

That is a very interesting take on the relative safety of old guns. We hear so much about the dangers of Damascus barrels and old black powder guns but not much about the risks involved in shooting older nitro guns with steel barrels.

Since I'm guilty of shooting all of the above it gives me something to ponder. I guess the only take away that comes to mind is not to maximum load any old gun but rather treat them gently.


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LGF
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Reged: 27/04/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: cordite]
      #314428 - 24/03/18 08:24 PM

A PH friend had a .470 sidelock blow as he was firing at a buffalo. I don't recall the maker, but it was a very good between-the-wars gun by a second tier British maker. A six inch shard of steel blew out ahead of the chamber, barely missing my friend and his client. He had it rebarrelled, and that gunmaker blamed the failure on modern solids. I have a 1918 Evans .470 that had seen a lot of use across Africa, and since that incident only use cast and soft nose bullets in it.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: 470evans]
      #314449 - 25/03/18 07:57 AM

Quote:

What was the original caliber of this rifle?

So far I have seen a Holland 500/465 and a late Alexander Henry 475no2 with burst barrels. I have heard of others but those are the only two I have personally handled.

The Henry had been rebored.




The original caliber was .450Nitro.

Yes..prewar doubles for cordite is a lottery ticket. Interwar period english dr may be safe with modern ammunition using softjacket bullets a la Woodleighs.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: rigbymauser]
      #314543 - 27/03/18 12:59 PM

Jens,

Out of interest, what was the cost of just the new set of barrels, and from what to what ie what use of the old set was made? As you mention total cost of the rifle only.

What projectile were you using again?

I do totally avoid any monometal bullet in my old rifles. And try to limit Woodleigh FMJs as well to need.

Your 'new' rifle looks nice, and hopefully will bring a century of pleasure.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Barrel blow-up follow-up [Re: NitroX]
      #314566 - 28/03/18 01:45 AM

Quote:

Jens,

Out of interest, what was the cost of just the new set of barrels, and from what to what ie what use of the old set was made? As you mention total cost of the rifle only.

What projectile were you using again?

I do totally avoid any monometal bullet in my old rifles. And try to limit Woodleigh FMJs as well to need.

Your 'new' rifle looks nice, and hopefully will bring a century of pleasure.




Thanks John.

A set of new barrels with new dollhead costs USD 11000.

I am shooting Hornady .450 DGX ammo..but the gun must again go down for a new re-regulation. I am in good communication with the gunmarker that I will come down with the rifle and we`ll go shoot the rifle together.

Shooting modern ammunition in the old guns we enjoy, puts a lot of strain/stress in the barrels, solderings etc. The strain is what kills the barrels on the these old guns..not chamberpressures. We have better powders today where we can load to a lower CIP pressure. The steels they used back then isnīt strong and the rifling of the vintage guns doesnīt meet CIP standards either. I would do what you do too..shoot woodleighs..or cast bullets for plinking.

With the new steelbarrels I can shoot any bullets in .458 available on the marked today from soft monometal(cast) to hard monometal and everything in between.

I am in the process to have a set of paradox barrels made for the Rigby too. Time = $$..

I spoke to Holland & Holland in regards to have a new set of paradoxbarrels made and they said I would be better of to find a paradox gun...Well thankfully there are a few gunmarkers around the world who can cut muzzle rifling.

Edited by rigbymauser (28/03/18 01:47 AM)


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