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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Heeren system
      #314391 - 23/03/18 11:46 PM

I am not familiar with the Heeren system and I would like to learn more about it.

I understand from previous posts, mainly originating from Kuduae, that the Heeren action was invented by Count Arturo Massa y Heeren, in 1880; patent was subsequently given to Nagel & Menz in Baden-Baden and actions made by the Suhl guntrade, first by Stephan Heym jr., then by his son Max Heym. After the patent expired the Heyms, father and son, made the rifles under their own name. Max Heym had the word "Heeren" protected as a trademark. Max Heym continued up to 1938, when he sold out to Ernst Kerner & Co. because of old age. Kerner continued to make Heeren actions and rifles until 1945.

My questions are :
• Who developped the side safety that was not visible on the initial actions, and from which year dates back this development ?
o Early Nagel & Menz action without side safety:

o Later action with side safety :

• When did the 1880 patent expired ?
• Until when was the Heeren trademark protected ?
• Where post-WW2 Glaser Heeren actions manufactured by Omega in Switzerland standard Heeren actions or was the mechanism modified by Glaser ?
• Who - apart maybe, Hartmann & Weiss and the Ferlach guntrade, manufactures Heeren actions nowadays ?
• Heeren rifles were to my knowledge originally available in 6,5 , 7 and 8 mm European calibres mostly (and by extension now in their US equivalent) but not in bigger calibres such as 9,3 (or US equivalent nowadays). Should this mean that the Heeren falling block action is not adapted to them ?
• Are there any good books or publications, in English or in German, on the Heeren system ?

Thank you in advance for any information shared.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 234
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Louis]
      #314403 - 24/03/18 04:28 AM

http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/heerenstutzen.html

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314405 - 24/03/18 06:00 AM

Thank you Chapmen, I already visit very often this much informative website.

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"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Louis]
      #314407 - 24/03/18 06:35 AM

Do you have more info about the rifle in the first pic?

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314429 - 24/03/18 08:33 PM

Louis. a löt of questions, but not easy to answer.
• Who developped the side safety that was not visible on the initial actions, and from which year dates back this development ?
No exact date known, but a 1920s ad by Max Heym shows it.
• When did the 1880 patent expired ?
As the Heeren DRP # 13250 was applied for on July 11, 1880, it was in the public domain 20 years later, July 12, 1900
• Until when was the Heeren trademark protected ?
1945
• Where post-WW2 Glaser Heeren actions manufactured by Omega in Switzerland standard Heeren actions or was the mechanism modified by Glaser ?
Not the internal mechanism, but the Omega actions are longer, that is, the "receiver ring" is 30 mm instead of the Suhl 18 mm.
• Who - apart maybe, Hartmann & Weiss and the Ferlach guntrade, manufactures Heeren actions nowadays ?
I don't know, but post-WW2 makers were Orea and Furtschegger too, besides Outschar. They made xhanges, F.i. coil- instead of leaf springs. Outschar slghtly slanted the breechblock by about 3 degrees to prevent the infamous binding at pressures over 3000 bar.
• Heeren rifles were to my knowledge originally available in 6,5 , 7 and 8 mm European calibres mostly (and by extension now in their US equivalent) but not in bigger calibres such as 9,3 (or US equivalent nowadays). Should this mean that the Heeren falling block action is not adapted to them ?

There is no earthly reason why a Heeren action rifle could not be built in 9.3x74R or .450-400. But Heeren rifles were usually meant as short, light stalking rifles for Alpine mountain use on roe, chamois and red deer. Medium or large bores are less suited for such use. Yes, I have once seen a Heeren rifle in 10.3x60R, a nitro load of the .450-400 2 3/8" Express. Hunting law of the Swiss canton Graubünden/Grischun prescribes single shot rifles so chambered.

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Louis
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Posts: 977
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Re: Heeren system [Re: kuduae]
      #314434 - 24/03/18 10:27 PM

Kuduae, thank you very much, this is most useful as usual.

Chapmen, I found the photo on the internet at http://www.tircollection.com/t14074-culasse-a-bloc-tombant ; several photos of the same rifle available in an old post dating back to 2013.

Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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DORLEAC
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Louis]
      #314436 - 24/03/18 11:42 PM

Louis,

We have built some Heeren stalking rifles and it's a system that has always fascinated us.
For me the best actions are those produced by Max HEYM circa 1920s, both the most elegant and the most achieved systems.
As I know you understand the French language you will not have a hard time following the explanations on the pictures below.
At our next meeting at the workshop I will show you some rifles of that kind.

All the best.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com























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Louis
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Re: Heeren system [Re: DORLEAC]
      #314437 - 25/03/18 12:09 AM

Dear Joël
Thank you very much for your input.
I look forward to seeing you soon at Perpignan.
Best regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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tinker
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Louis]
      #314441 - 25/03/18 03:03 AM

Thanks Joel!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: Heeren system [Re: tinker]
      #314445 - 25/03/18 05:32 AM

Yes indeed- thank you Joel. As always, those rifles are superb!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: DarylS]
      #314468 - 25/03/18 08:58 PM

an real early one, maybe made for military trials:









(found in an french forum some years ago, tried to contact the owner for better pics, but did not get response)

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314469 - 25/03/18 09:02 PM

The Nagel&Menz shop in Baden-Baden 1905:



--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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Louis
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Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314470 - 25/03/18 11:57 PM

Thank you Chapmen for these photos - interesting stock, and post card. Here after is also the link for an early Nagel & Menz 'Strassburg & Baden' in 8x57JR advertised on the French website Naturabuy https://www.naturabuy.fr/HEEREN-Carabine-coup-calibre-8-57-JR-item-3844275.html and auctioned for the starting price of Euro 6500 (!); I think that a similar rifle - maybe that one, was sold for much lesser some years ago in Germany and photos had been posted on the Forum. Louis

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lancaster
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Louis]
      #314474 - 26/03/18 04:45 AM

here are the pics













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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: lancaster]
      #314477 - 26/03/18 05:14 AM

time to start an Heeren thread ......

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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lancaster
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Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314478 - 26/03/18 05:33 AM

just startet here

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Heeren system [Re: lancaster]
      #314520 - 27/03/18 07:21 AM

Joel, thanks for the great photos, a very interesting and unusual action. Very nice rifles as well.

Waidmannsheil.

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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #314569 - 28/03/18 04:06 AM

Thats the man behind the Heeren-action, Conde Christian Arturo Juan Antonio de Heeren y Massa, 1905 in the age of 61 years:





--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (28/03/18 04:12 AM)

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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314571 - 28/03/18 04:16 AM

1907 Nagel&Menz ad for the Heeren rifle:



--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314572 - 28/03/18 04:19 AM





--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 234
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Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314573 - 28/03/18 04:22 AM





--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Re: Heeren system [Re: chapmen]
      #314604 - 28/03/18 07:25 PM

Thank you very much, Chapmen.
Best regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Louis]
      #314605 - 28/03/18 07:31 PM

Yes, very interesting, especially the patent drawings. Thanks for posting


Waidmannsheil.

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There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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lancaster
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #314620 - 28/03/18 11:03 PM

simple as it is you wonder that the action was not used in great amount for single shots

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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chapmen
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Re: Heeren system [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #314627 - 29/03/18 03:12 AM

Quote:

Yes, very interesting, especially the patent drawings.


Waidmannsheil.



https://patents.google.com/patent/US239496

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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