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Westley375
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 147
Loc: Montana USA
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 3DogMike]
      #313009 - 24/02/18 03:34 PM

So what the hell is NP stand for ?

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
      #313016 - 24/02/18 11:19 PM

Quote:

So what the hell is NP stand for ?






That's a good question. That mark certainly was not applied by any proof house. My guess is that some bubba wanted to "upgrade" to the appearance of nitro proof to deceive the unaware.

You should get a reference work on proofmarks. I would suggest The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, by Gerhard Wirnsberger or British Gunmakers, Volume 1 - London by Nigel Brown. Brown's excellent discussion of British proof marks begins on page 260 of that volume.

Your rifle never has been submitted to nitro proof; neither when originally made, nor later.

If you are shooting any loads that resemble full nitro loads you are literally playing with dynamite. Your rifle is for black powder or black powder equivalent loads only. Sadly, you can argue the point until the cows come home, but it doesn't change your situation.

Curl

P.S. I'm very sorry to have to post this information. I know it goes against your genuine understanding of this rifle. Nevertheless, it is what it is.

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (25/02/18 12:06 AM)


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8borerifle
.275 member


Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: CptCurl]
      #313017 - 24/02/18 11:30 PM

The G137P stands for Grains 137 Powder. Which is about 5 drama

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8borerifle
.275 member


Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 8borerifle]
      #313018 - 24/02/18 11:32 PM

Sorry, 5 DRAMS.

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Westley375
.300 member


Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 147
Loc: Montana USA
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 8borerifle]
      #313023 - 25/02/18 02:00 AM

Well I guess that ends the mystery......glad I still have all my fingers. Oh by the way, I never argued or insisted that it was NP I was assuming it was based on what "experts" told me. Now I know it is what it is..... enough said !!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Westley375 (25/02/18 02:06 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
      #313032 - 25/02/18 03:19 AM

A black powder Holland & Holland double rifle is not a bad thing. I have a few myself! As well as other makers too.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: CptCurl]
      #313036 - 25/02/18 03:46 AM

Good work gentlemen. A wealth of experience and knowledge.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: CptCurl]
      #313041 - 25/02/18 04:09 AM

Quote:

A black powder Holland & Holland double rifle is not a bad thing





Not a bad thing, although there tends to be a difference in resale value between a black powder express rifle and a nitro express rifle of similar condition and maker.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 8borerifle]
      #313046 - 25/02/18 04:48 AM

Quote:

The G137P stands for Grains 137 Powder. Which is about 5 drama




Interesting, with 4 1/2 drams stamped on the side of the action.

The heavier 'gun' weight suggests likely heavier powder charge.

The twist rate should be measured, which will tell us approximate bullet weight. Perhaps it is twisted for 480gr. PP bullets, not the typical 270 to 340?(just a guess on those)

It could be this rifle was made for heavier bullets than the typical .450EX., thus the 137gr. stamped on the barrels.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: DarylS]
      #313063 - 25/02/18 05:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The G137P stands for Grains 137 Powder. Which is about 5 drama




Interesting, with 4 1/2 drams stamped on the side of the action.

The heavier 'gun' weight suggests likely heavier powder charge.

The twist rate should be measured, which will tell us approximate bullet weight. Perhaps it is twisted for 480gr. PP bullets, not the typical 270 to 340?(just a guess on those)

It could be this rifle was made for heavier bullets than the typical .450EX., thus the 137gr. stamped on the barrels.




It is certainly an enigma as to the “non conforming” markings on the barrel flats, those simply do not match any accepted marks from the major proof houses.
Likely the only way to close in on more of an answer would be contacting Holland & Holland, not that difficult to do if one has the interest.

As mentioned earlier by “470evans” the serial number puts the build date at 1892-93
- Mike


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: tinker]
      #313064 - 25/02/18 05:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

A black powder Holland & Holland double rifle is not a bad thing





Not a bad thing, although there tends to be a difference in resale value between a black powder express rifle and a nitro express rifle of similar condition and maker.




Which is fine by me!
The argument that limited hunting opportunities is the reason for the depressed big bore nitro gun market should in turn bolster the market for the BPE rifles as they are well suited to hunting anything other than the big five. (the issue of handloading aside, of course)
Hasn't happened that way though so high quality BPE rifles are IMO the best deals going in the gun market right now.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: DarylS]
      #313066 - 25/02/18 05:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The G137P stands for Grains 137 Powder. Which is about 5 drama




Interesting, with 4 1/2 drams stamped on the side of the action.
It could be this rifle was made for heavier bullets than the typical .450EX., thus the 137gr. stamped on the barrels.





This maker seems to keep good records.
I'd ask for them to have a look at the archive.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: tinker]
      #314447 - 25/03/18 07:26 AM

According to H&H the .500/450magnum express was loaded with..

1) a 325grain lead bullet 140grain blackpowder.
2) a 475grain leadbullet 125grain blackpowder.

Even though H&H call their 140grain load for a 5drammer it was 136,5grain.

Eley & Kynoch catalogs show loads with 325grain and 365grain as what I see. These were loaded between 1885-1919

When H&H took the .500/450 into cordite mode the `magnum` was removed. It was simply called .450 Cordite loaded with respectivly 370, 420 and 480grain bullets.

Eley however still call their .500/450 cordite ammunition for `.500/450 Cordite magnum`. Eley load this cartridge from 1900-1919.

The rifle in question which is marked 4˝dram(122grain) would for me suggest it´s regulated for the cannelured 475grain


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: rigbymauser]
      #314455 - 25/03/18 02:54 PM

If you have any vintage media on this, I'd like to see it.
:-)

My Tolley is marked for a 5-1/2 Dram load with a 3-1/2 case.
The Holland and Holland is set up for the 3-1/4" case - but I'd very much like to see any advertising or specification media on the numbers you show here.

Thanks!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: tinker]
      #314463 - 25/03/18 06:23 PM

Quote:

If you have any vintage media on this, I'd like to see it.
:-)

My Tolley is marked for a 5-1/2 Dram load with a 3-1/2 case.
The Holland and Holland is set up for the 3-1/4" case - but I'd very much like to see any advertising or specification media on the numbers you show here.

Thanks!



Cheers
Tinker




'experts on guns and shooting'(1900) Teasdale.
'British sporting and rifles'part 1 (1996) Hoyem
'Eley cartridges' (2006)

Additional info in regards to ICI ammunition look at'The history and devopment of small arms ammunition '(1985) vol 3 by Hoyem. There is list of many loads.


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: rigbymauser]
      #314472 - 26/03/18 01:11 AM

Looks like the 325/140 was Hollands early attempt to make a magnum out of the 500/450 No.1 Express (2-3/4" case from Westley)which they soon dropped.
H&H did post some loads for the 3-1/4" in their advertising.






--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Huvius]
      #314473 - 26/03/18 01:25 AM

Thanks

I'd never seen media discussing the heavier 475gr bullet in the BPE cartridge - and here with charge data too!
They even discuss metal jacket for the 475gr bullet.
Interesting.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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