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Kammerherren
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Norway
Oberndorf questions
      #313042 - 25/02/18 04:10 AM

A couple of quick questions for you guys. I can’t find anything about this through Google or in any of my books.
Oberndorf Mausers that are marked 6,5 P.P. on the barren, is this the 6,5x58 Portuguese?

The Oberndorf model S is apparently rarer than the model M, but how many was built of these two models?

Anyone knows?

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Collects guns made at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk in Norway and European sporting rifles 1890-1940, feel free to have a look at my homepage. www.oldkongsbergarms.com


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: Kammerherren]
      #313069 - 25/02/18 05:41 AM

It is the 6.5 Portugese.
The P.P. is apparently something like Portugese Patrone or Patronen Portugese.

Portugese cartridge in English.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: Huvius]
      #313079 - 25/02/18 06:59 AM

Think so, Huvius - I recall seeing 'Patronen Portugese' in a Gun Digest MANY years ago.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Igorrock
.400 member


Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1635
Loc: Finland
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: DarylS]
      #313081 - 25/02/18 07:12 AM

My (nowadays sold) Mauser Oberndorf in 6,5x55 had letters S.P. I was told that it means Schwedisch Patrone.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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Gen_Hicks
.300 member


Reged: 15/10/12
Posts: 136
Loc: Lowveld, South Africa
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: Kammerherren]
      #313082 - 25/02/18 07:12 AM

Quote:

A couple of quick questions for you guys. I can’t find anything about this through Google or in any of my books.
Oberndorf Mausers that are marked 6,5 P.P. on the barren, is this the 6,5x58 Portuguese?

The Oberndorf model S is apparently rarer than the model M, but how many was built of these two models?

Anyone knows?




Huvius is correct, its the caliber is as stated.

I have my own opinion on which is rarer than the other between the M and S types. I think they both equally rare. Any rare caliber/action in either those two models is a value added piece to a serious mauser collector. Eg a kurz action in M or S is VERY rare. We just dont find them in SA


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Kammerherren
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Norway
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: DarylS]
      #313083 - 25/02/18 07:18 AM

Thank you Huvius and Daryl, until I get any evidence this is wrong I conclude on the 6,5x58 Portuguese. Any idea about the Stutzen and Mannlicher question?

--------------------
Collects guns made at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk in Norway and European sporting rifles 1890-1940, feel free to have a look at my homepage. www.oldkongsbergarms.com


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paradox_
.375 member


Reged: 12/05/07
Posts: 645
Loc: Australia
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: Kammerherren]
      #313109 - 25/02/18 03:02 PM

It has been my personal experience that the " M " Type is the less common, that is to say Ive had less encounters with Model MS over 40 years, than Model S.....but just my own experience.

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Walk softly and carry a big stick


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Kammerherren
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Norway
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: paradox_]
      #313123 - 25/02/18 08:02 PM

John speed writes the following at the end of each chapter of these two models.

Model M: With a little effort a collector should be able to locate a good example of this important Mauser carbine.

The model S: It is not always easy to locate a really good example of the Model S, which is an important piece for any collection.

As a Norwegian I might misunderstand what he means here, but my understanding is that his opinion is that the model S is the harder to find. Do you Americans/Australians/British have another understanding of this text? I have only seen one of these models in real life, so in my opinion they are both rather rare....

--------------------
Collects guns made at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk in Norway and European sporting rifles 1890-1940, feel free to have a look at my homepage. www.oldkongsbergarms.com


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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: Kammerherren]
      #313138 - 26/02/18 02:48 AM

If you go by Jon Speed's books, the A (English style) and M models came after the B and S styles. Going by interwar German catalogs, the model S was the standard offering in Germany, while the M was predominantly made for export, available on special order only, just like the A and "African model" types. So you see S types much more often than M types here in Germany, though all Mauser, Oberndorf, prewar commercial rifles are rare here. IMHO there were many more S Stutzen made originally than the M type export model. But then came 1945 and aftermaths. Note, Jon wrote:
"It is not always easy to locate a REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE of the Model S"
Survival rate is the cause here. While most Mausers, exported pre-WW2 to Britain, USA, Scandinavia and elsewhere survived the ravages of time quite unmolested, gun ownership in Germany was a crime, punishable by death, in Germany from 1945 -1950. All firearms had to be surrendred immediately to the Allies. Most guns were destroyed, some "liberated" and now found in the USA and elsewhere. Guns that remained in Germany were hidden away in the most unlikely places with often adverse storage conditions. I even know some guns that were buried in a grave, some inches above a coffin. When gun ownership became more or less legal five years later, such hidden guns were retrieved from hideouts. If not rusted and rotten beyond repair, they were repaired to "useable" by some means, many restocked or rebarreled with an ex-miltary barrel. Sometimes the scopes had survived under better storage conditions and could be put back on the rifles. Others were mounted again with any old scope available and makeshift claw mounts. The few rifles that survived the five post-war years in decent shape were now used for 60 years, often remounted with "modern" scopes and mounts. Remember, the true commercial Mausers were appreciated here just as usable rifles, until American books by Olson, Womack and Speed appeared. So most commercial Mausers you find now in Germany are either quite sorry examples with rust pitting and discolored stocks, refinished post-war, or reimports from other countries, often Sweden.
In all, Germany is likely the worst place to look for a decent pre-war Mauser rifle, especially a M or A. As customers in many other countries preferred the looks of the more expensive M type over the S, there may be the false impression that the M type is more frequent than the S one.


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Kammerherren
.224 member


Reged: 22/02/11
Posts: 39
Loc: Norway
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: kuduae]
      #313149 - 26/02/18 06:21 AM

Thank you Kuduae, for a very informative and sensible reply. What you write makes a lot of sense. We had the same problem here in Norway for a 5 year period where private guns was completely banned, and those who hided one would be punished by death. A large number was still hidden in very unfavorable locations and the result was often rust. Luckily quite a large portion of all private guns that was confiscated in 1940 was returned to its original owner shortly after the war ended. The result is that we still have quite a few old guns laying around in Norway.

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Collects guns made at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk in Norway and European sporting rifles 1890-1940, feel free to have a look at my homepage. www.oldkongsbergarms.com


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mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Oberndorf questions [Re: Kammerherren]
      #313201 - 27/02/18 04:21 AM

The M seems to be rarer than the S in the U.S. from what I can tell, but both are hard to come by. I have an M in 8x51 which I had to pay dearly for, but also have only one S. I think both are rarer than the A -'at least in my experience.

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