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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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mchughcb
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Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull
      #312925 - 23/02/18 10:51 PM

Blaser wins and loses

Just another day of having fun

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: mchughcb]
      #313325 - 01/03/18 08:42 AM

In my opinion the BLASER straight pull/push action of the Blaser rifle is about the only bolt rifle on the marker that has a Chinaman's chance of getting off four shots in the same time as a double rifle. On the first two shots any double rifle will get the two off much quicker than even the BLASER bolt rifle. Once those four shots are fired however the next two will be the double rifle while the BLASER is having the magazine re-loaded! All this is having both shooters being equally skilled shooters of their respective rifle types, the blaser shooter will be very close to the double shooter for the first two, and maybe the third shot but shot four will have to come from a reloaded blaser magazine.

IMO, no turn bolt rifle will come close to a double rifle for shot two, three or four as long as both shooters are well skilled with their respective rifles!

None of this is just my opinion, but the results of actual shooting speed and accuracy digitally timed contests.

.................................................Mac!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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crshelton
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #313333 - 01/03/18 09:14 AM

Is this discussion open to all non-double rifle actions or just Blaser bolt actions?



How about 5 fast shots? of 300 grain ammo as 2250 fps?

--------------------
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Edited by crshelton (01/03/18 01:38 PM)

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mchughcb
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: crshelton]
      #313356 - 01/03/18 07:21 PM

You may post any video of a lever action against a double. The lever will gave to di at least 3500fpe though and it needs to be 8 shots in 35 seconds on target.

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mchughcb
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: mchughcb]
      #313357 - 01/03/18 07:22 PM

Nice looking 405 by the way.

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crshelton
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: mchughcb]
      #313365 - 02/03/18 01:35 AM

Thanks, that picture was taken before the rifle had been hunted much.
It is a.405 WCF TD and has had the chamber extended to handle 400 grain Woodleighs crimped on the cannelure.
BTW, there has never been a need for more than two shots on big game with the .405, much less 8, so I will just save my ammo and wisecracks. I also shoot a .405 double, so I would be competing against myself and could not bear to lose either way.

If you like my 1895 .405, you should meet Peter Richards up Port McQuarrie way. His has a scout scope on his and has taken a lot of big critters here in Texas and down under.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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Rell
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: crshelton]
      #313372 - 02/03/18 03:45 AM

I can’t defame a 405W Model 95.

I have to say it is not an aplples to apples comparison in the bolt vs. double debate. A 416Rem vs. a 9.3x74r, not so much. The recoil difference and recovery time due to that difference is pretty severe.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

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szihn
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Rell]
      #313514 - 05/03/18 01:16 PM

Comparing the rifles that way is not a good test.

I did this a while back myself with a CZ602 I made in 460 G&A shooting against a Manton 450/400 double. The double kicked less. Keep that in mind as I tell the story please.

We shot 2 rounds for speed at a 5" target at 15 yards. Hits counted and misses didn't.

I won with the bolt action every time, because my competitor rushed and shot faster but missed 1 time each time we did the drill, and twice he missed both shots. 2 hits for me. 1 hit or no hits for him.

We then shot at a 2 foot sized sand stone at 200 yards. Same test. 2 shot each, no misses counted. There he slowed down and hit every time, but not as fast as I did. Again the bolt action won by a pretty large margin.

Last we shot at the same rock at 200, but for 4 shots. Predictably I won every time. I had that rock hit the 4th time before he had the 3rd and 4th rounds loaded and the gun back on target in most cases.

What did that prove?

I think it proved a man that shoots almost every day for a living, and goes thought about 6,000 to 7,500 rounds a year minimum can out-shoot a man that shoots 5-6 times a year, and goes through about 150-200 rounds total. I am 100% sure of my conclusion. Why? Because we also swapped guns----- and I beat him with his double when he was shooting my bolt action too. Every time!

I sound like a broken record, but I keep saying it's the man, not the tool that is important in shooting.

Buying new cool guns is great, but that doesn't improve your abilities. Be it a super modern fighting pistol, hunting rifle, "tactical rifle" (in the newest fad-caliber) or expensive shotgun.

People do the shooting. Guns are just tools.
Marksmanship is key, not guns and goodies.
______________________________________________________________________
Came back again to add another thought:
To do a valid test I believe we would have to gather about 20 men or more, give each one of them the same 2 rifles and ammo so each one could run the drills, and see what the times were, and then get an average as to which system is faster as a rule.

Just doing it yourself proves nothing except that YOU are faster with one gun over the other.
That's not a test of a kind of gun, but a test of an individual's skills with each gun.

Edited by szihn (05/03/18 01:38 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: szihn]
      #313516 - 05/03/18 01:47 PM

Once again, the voice of reason.

Then there is the guy who empties his rifle while staring at the bear, round after round, into the chamber and out onto the ground, thinking he is shooting the bear, shot after shot. THIS very thing happens too often.

Guys - get out and shoot - practice - moving targets if possible - if not invent other 'games' to practice - hunting positions.

At least in NA & Australia, there is vermin ripe for rifle practice - GET OUT and DO IT!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mchughcb
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: szihn]
      #313520 - 05/03/18 09:06 PM

Quote:

Comparing the rifles that way is not a good test.



I think it proved a man that shoots almost every day for a living, and goes thought about 6,000 to 7,500 rounds a year minimum can out-shoot a man that shoots 5-6 times a year, and goes through about 150-200 rounds total. I am 100% sure of my conclusion. Why? Because we also swapped guns----- and I beat him with his double when he was shooting my bolt action too. Every time!Just doing it yourself proves nothing except that YOU are faster with one gun over the other.
That's not a test of a kind of gun, but a test of an individual's skills with each gun.



Okay, lets go with your good test. Do you shoot 7500 rounds minimum per year as a professional? Excellent then it should be no problem to post a couple of videos of each demonstrating your ability with your guns because you'd have to shoot at least 20 shots per day and the event only calls for 8 in 35 seconds with a four loaded in the bolt action. That will be a fair comparison as you will be familiar with both. Infact by the end of the week with 140 rounds down range and more than 70 rounds each you can give us some reasonable stats on accuracy and timing.


Look forward to your posts on this.

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Rule303
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: mchughcb]
      #313523 - 05/03/18 09:38 PM

For the average bloke who does average shooting I call out right bullshit on the double being faster with 4 shots. Yes I have seen the Videos but these are not average blokes who does an average amount of shooting.
Now when you talk about blokes who practice and practice then clearly the double is faster with high energy recoil calibres. However if the bloke with the double fumbles at all the bolt gun wins. The double will have the advantage in getting back on target as you just deal with recoil and not working the action as well. For reliability, that, on the surface will go to the bolt gun. Yes. The double only needs a very small amount of grit in it and it won't close. Not from my experience but from a long time African hand who trusted a bolt over a double for that very reason. Had a couple of bad experiences with the double.

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DarylS
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Rule303]
      #313530 - 06/03/18 04:10 AM

mchughcb - I have no reason to disbelieve Steve's prowess with a rifle. He's been in the game for a long time.

7,500 rounds is bugger all for a year's shooting.

I'm no professional (was at one time, I guess, depending on what you'd call a professional) and yet I've done close to that just working up loads for a couple different, difficult rifles - wearing the barrels out in the process.

When I was doing a lot of handgun shooting, (.45 and 'some' .38) for the 'modified' IPSC I ran for my boys and the local RCMP, I averaged close to 300 rounds a week (1 day a week), every week except for 2 in one year alone. Some weeks, shoot weeks would be closer to 600. That's close to 15,000 rounds in practice for only one gun. I also hunted - smokeless and muzzleloader, worked up loads for new toys and also shot my 14 bore rifle almost every week as well. That's on top of the other 5 or 6 rifles a I shot a lot.
Every other year was a training year for me, which meant a trip to the Justice Institute for trainer training. That was 2,500rounds of handgun in one 5-day week (500 a day) - along with classroom instruction.
The numbers add up quickly when you are having fun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mchughcb
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: DarylS]
      #313540 - 06/03/18 07:13 AM

Im not disputing anything anybody says. Im just asking for a simple video of a good test.

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mchughcb
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Rule303]
      #313541 - 06/03/18 07:21 AM

Quote:

For the average bloke who does average shooting I call out right bullshit on the double being faster with 4 shots. Yes I have seen the Videos but these are not average blokes who does an average amount of shooting.
Now when you talk about blokes who practice and practice then clearly the double is faster with high energy recoil calibres. However if the bloke with the double fumbles at all the bolt gun wins. The double will have the advantage in getting back on target as you just deal with recoil and not working the action as well. For reliability, that, on the surface will go to the bolt gun. Yes. The double only needs a very small amount of grit in it and it won't close. Not from my experience but from a long time African hand who trusted a bolt over a double for that very reason. Had a couple of bad experiences with the double.



Who said four shots? The video clearly shows 4 shots out of the 416 is faster. Time was lost in the reload.

Who is average? Im no guru. I took my two rifles and filmed them.

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Rule303
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: mchughcb]
      #313544 - 06/03/18 08:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

For the average bloke who does average shooting I call out right bullshit on the double being faster with 4 shots. Yes I have seen the Videos but these are not average blokes who does an average amount of shooting.
Now when you talk about blokes who practice and practice then clearly the double is faster with high energy recoil calibres. However if the bloke with the double fumbles at all the bolt gun wins. The double will have the advantage in getting back on target as you just deal with recoil and not working the action as well. For reliability, that, on the surface will go to the bolt gun. Yes. The double only needs a very small amount of grit in it and it won't close. Not from my experience but from a long time African hand who trusted a bolt over a double for that very reason. Had a couple of bad experiences with the double.



Who said four shots? The video clearly shows 4 shots out of the 416 is faster. Time was lost in the reload.

Who is average? Im no guru. I took my two rifles and filmed them.



I said four shots as that is what most of these trials use. Also if the bolt has a detachable mag (and it is change friendly) and you have a spare one this would help the bolt, add to that, the dropping of the mag - as should be done if it is a DG shoot - and not sticking it in a pocket etc. If you have the same or very similar cartridges - recoil wise - in each firearm you may get a more consistent indication. In most situations once past 4 rounds I would think the double would be faster, all things being equal, as most DG calibre bolt actions do not have a detachable magazine.

Chuck you spend a bit of time at the range and I would warrant more time and more rounds down range than most. Do you do any dry drilling?

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Claydog
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Rule303]
      #313550 - 06/03/18 09:34 AM

The double versus bolt never fails to get a good debate going. Firstly I enjoyed the video and found the comparison interesting. It would be my belief that most professionals that use these type of rifles practice little and I would think plenty go through a season without firing a shot. I think most tough situations are won by the shooters ability to stay calm, not get off as many shots as possible and that for me marks the true professional. I found on the odd occasion it has occurred and compared to others little experience, that the hardest thing was to wait until the target was close enough that the one shot was going to find its mark and do its job. Its fun to compare double v bolt but if the first two havn't done the job your likely dead. The fact that there is so much debate on it tells me that its that close as to not really matter otherwise the argument would have been settled years ago.

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Postman
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Claydog]
      #313561 - 06/03/18 12:34 PM

Quote:

The double versus bolt never fails to get a good debate going. Firstly I enjoyed the video and found the comparison interesting. It would be my belief that most professionals that use these type of rifles practice little and I would think plenty go through a season without firing a shot. I think most tough situations are won by the shooters ability to stay calm, not get off as many shots as possible and that for me marks the true professional. I found on the odd occasion it has occurred and compared to others little experience, that the hardest thing was to wait until the target was close enough that the one shot was going to find its mark and do its job. Its fun to compare double v bolt but if the first two havn't done the job your likely dead. The fact that there is so much debate on it tells me that its that close as to not really matter otherwise the argument would have been settled years ago.



Yup. I would agree.... The tool is only one part of the equation.... What is the shooter most comfortable with? What has the shooter trained to do? I’m mighty fast with my big bore doubles. I am plenty comfortable with my bolts and have high confidence in them. I also suffer from the “admine my shot” syndrome after firing a shot with a bolt gun, which for some strange reason I don’t suffer from in the slightest with a double in my hands.... But: in neither case is it the gun’s feature or defect that causes me to conduct myself this way. It is absolutely a product of what I have conditioned myself to do, or have failed to condition myself to do..... practice, practice, practice..... I need to learn to work that bolt and work it vigourously and without dropping the rifle from my shoulder mount. There is good reason that every target on the course of fire presented to a master IPSC shooter catches two bullet holes in the centre of the target when the timer goes off and the shooter is running and gunning..... It’s called practice and conditioning

Let the debate rage on. My money is on the shooter that has practised proficiency with their tool of choice.

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mchughcb
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Postman]
      #313564 - 06/03/18 01:51 PM

Agree Clay dog. Any charging beast closer than 25m is going to collect you before you get a third shot off. Trying to shoot it 8 times at 25m is a moot point.

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Rule303
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Claydog]
      #313570 - 06/03/18 06:06 PM

Claydog I agree with what you others have said about it being the operator. Also what you say about 2 shots and then being in a world of hurt, yep, can't disagree with that.

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mchughcb
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Rule303]
      #313576 - 07/03/18 12:29 AM

Which leads to the obvious question is why the double rifle is to provide a last means of defence against a DG animal do people then try and project it for other uses such as a stalking tool?

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Ripp
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Rule303]
      #313581 - 07/03/18 02:08 AM

Quote:

Claydog I agree with what you others have said about it being the operator. Also what you say about 2 shots and then being in a world of hurt, yep, can't disagree with that.



Remember reading a story a few years back of a guide/hunter in Alaska for brown bear..don't remember the details other than it was a similar debate on double vs bolt..in that case the guide had been charged by a wounded bear.. he stated that had he not had a bolt and that 3rd shot, he would have been dead... will do some digging to see if I can find that story..

For me, I have both, double and blaser..personally I prefer a bolt when stalking..but again, that is what I have used the most by far...do think it would be fun to take the double however for a tuskless hunt or buff hunt..OR, my bucket list item, hunt/shoot a hippo on land with one..to me, that would be fun...

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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DarylS
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Ripp]
      #313587 - 07/03/18 04:32 AM

I do not have a double - would like one, though. I use bolt guns only now, except for the 14 bore cap lock.

When hunting alone, I carry one round in the chamber, bolt closed and safety on. I do have 'extra' ammo in a pocket or pouch - rarely needed, so far.

I suppose I might feel better armed if in the company of large bears if I had a few rounds in the magazine.

Interesting discussion. Seems to me, the lads who were on elephant culling exploits preferred bolt actioned .458's or .404's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: DarylS]
      #313598 - 07/03/18 08:47 AM

To answer the questions.
I am a professional in 2 ways I guess.
#1 I earn most of my living these days as a gunsmith and so I fire various guns every day of my life, about 5-6 times a week, but I am not being paid to fire those shot per se. I am being paid to insure the guns (rifles, handguns and shotguns) are in working order and most times, that they are zeroed in, and ready for service.

So some days I may fire 1-3 guns and some days I may fire up to 6-7. As an average I will fire about 20-40 round per gun. Just in the last 4 hours I went through 30 rounds of 38 Special, 18 rounds of 223 from a M700 bolt action and a full box of 45 ACP from a 1911. So today so far I have fired 98 rounds and the day's not over.

So lets say that comes to a loose average of 14 guns per week, with maybe an average of 25-30 shots each. If we call it 27 rounds per gun as a rough guess, that comes to 378 rounds a week, X 49 weeks. ( Not 52 because I take time off for Hunting, Christmas and sometime when I am on the road) That's 18,522 per year, from guns I am working on.

Add to that the 2-3 cases of AK74 and AK47 rounds (5.45 and 7.62) I fire, plus an average of 1,500 5.56 rounds from my AR15s I fire as in instructor, and for students who ask for tutoring, plus most years I'll fire a 1000 round case of 45 ACP and about 2000 rounds of 9MM as an average, and on top of those I will fire about 750 to 1000 rounds of mixed 38 special, 357 mag, 44 mag and a few 454s every year.

This is a loose average, and some years the totals will vary quite a bit, but not so much the round-count.

2 years ago as an example, I fired a lot more 45ACP then I did 9mm, but last year my 9MM handguns went through just under 3 cases (1000 rounds each). I also go through a few hundred 308s and 6.8SPCs every year too.
Throw in my fun-shooting, in calibers I am playing with for myself on top of this pile. 8X57, 9.3X57, 9.3X74R, 30-06 270s, 6.5X54 Mann/Scho, 25-06 300 H&H 404 jeffery and muzzleloaders.

So my guess in my post above (7,500) is actually way low.

But I am not a celebrity.

I don't even own a video camera. In fact I don't ever even take my regular camera with me when I go hunting. (something I find I am kicking myself for at times)

So there are no videos of me to the best of my knowledge, unless someone in the Navy or Marine Corps has one, and in classes on Military and Polices ranges I don't know if they would even allow a camera. I never asked. But I somewhat doubt they would.

There are a few members who have posted here in the past who know me however, and have been to my home and range, and shot with me. I won't call them out here, but if they see this post and are comfortable with adding anything, they are very welcome.

If someone doesn't believe me it's 100% ok with me. I don't have a dog in the fight. Their disbelief costs me nothing.

But what I have seen and tested I am willing to report. And that costs them nothing.

Those the have read my posts for years, and those that know me, know I am always focusing on improving my students abilities, and almost never focus on gear or tools. That includes guns and scopes. I will focus on bullet selection in many cases, because this has more to do with the effectiveness of kills then the guns they are fired from in my experience.

Skill trumps everything else in 99.5% of the cases, and skill can be improved, even when students are not wealthy and can't afford the "latest and greatest" or the expensive "elite class" guns of this era or the last one.

It's the man doing the shooting, not the gun.

Edited by szihn (07/03/18 08:51 AM)

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Rule303
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: szihn]
      #313599 - 07/03/18 08:59 AM

Ripp I remember reading the same of similar. I must confess when I spoke of DG I was thinking Africa where the shooting often starts at 30 yards or closer and for got about Bears. I have not hunted them but a mate tells me his guide said if the bear was coming at them, once it hit the 100 yard mark they would all be firing at it. Something like 3 seconds to close that gap, that is quick.

I have heard the story of a bloke saying there are a few people in Kenyan graves because they did not have a double and another bloke saying there were just as many because they did have a double. To me this kind of backs up what szihn and others have said. It is mainly the operator not the firearm.

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DarylS
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Re: Double Rifle Speed versus Blaser Straight Pull [Re: Rule303]
      #313605 - 07/03/18 11:30 AM

I will note the only time I felt vulnerable, was when daughter Carol and I, hunting along a path, walked into a grizzly's living room. Piles of grizzly scat all around, (if a pile of shit larger than a Holstein Cow's pile is still "scat") weeds packed down in a circle 30' in diameter, & fresh tacks in the bit of mud on the trail - stunk to high heaven as we came in from up-wind to get around some bush. There had to be a gut pile or dead animal close by.
Carol had her .260 loaded with 160gr. Sierra RN, one in the magazine, bolt open and I had my .218 Bee Ruger #1 & had 1/2 dozen 50gr. TSX loaded at 3,308fps, in my pocket, nothing in the chamber, action open. LOL - I did feel a mite undergunned. That was the last time I hunted deer with that rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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